M14 says Jesus advocates lawlessness

[manifold]

Well, not in so many words, but he does claim that Jesus would oppose anything that undermines the Christian principle of free will. And of course that includes all laws and all institutions that enact and enforce law.

I never would've pegged Jesus for a lawless anarchist, but M14 Shooter makes a compelling case.

 

[Shogun]

"The Greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

Brennan Manning

 

[AllieBaba]

What a load of crap.

What pisses off secular progressives is that Christians don't conform to THEIR ideas of what CHristians should act like.

They don't like Christians. It isn't that Christians DO anything, except enrage them by being.

 

[manifold]

Is that the best you've got?

Not surprising. At least M14 knows well enough to leave this one alone since it proves how totally wrong he is in the Jesus was a commie thread.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[AllieBaba]

Case in point. Thank you.

 

[Ravi]

What a load of crap.

What pisses off secular progressives is that Christians don't conform to THEIR ideas of what CHristians should act like.

They don't like Christians. It isn't that Christians DO anything, except enrage them by being.

What makes you think he's a secular progressive?

 

[Diuretic]

What a load of crap.

What pisses off secular progressives is that Christians don't conform to THEIR ideas of what CHristians should act like.

They don't like Christians. It isn't that Christians DO anything, except enrage them by being.

Speaking as a secular humanist I don't care what Christians get up to as long as it doesn't break the law (eg praying instead of getting urgent medical attention for an extremely sick child).

 

[Shogun]

What a load of crap.

What pisses off secular progressives is that Christians don't conform to THEIR ideas of what CHristians should act like.

They don't like Christians. It isn't that Christians DO anything, except enrage them by being.

It's not my quote, baba. do some research instead of hoping your faith in a ghost makes you right. You clearly don't have a grasp on history, letalone the history of your own dogma, making statements like that.

Far be it for me to remind you that even your bible mentions the prevelance of false christianity. Your performance in the charity thread, blindly and automatically backing up m14 without nary the slightest effort in quoting scripture, makes my point.

I don't really care if you spit the word "secular progressive" out of your mouth like it could sour your soul any more than it already is. Jebus didn't act like you do. He didn't justify bullshit by thumping religious traditions and he sure as fuck didn't tell his flock to go around judging everyone and using his word like a club. so, cry about evil atheists all you want to... but it was a christian that made the quote above.

and he was spot on.

 

[AllieBaba]

I know it's not your quote. Your point? That if it isn't yours, it must be right? I'm afraid that's not so, though it happens often enough it must seem so.


Once again, more blather based upon false premise. My soul isn't sour, I'm not teaching false Christianity, I didn't say anything about "evil" atheists, and you have even less insight into what Jesus would want from us than most.

Really, to hear you whine about me "judging" people. If it wasn't so sad, it might be sort of...well, no, not even then. Look at the filth you spread around. If that isn't judgement, then obviously you don't have a firm hold on what the word means. All of your most rabid arguments are based on inaccurate judgement and condemnation of those who don't agree with you.

You can't stick to the topic, all you can do is make outlandish claims, which you base all of your tripe on.

It's a house of cards.

I recommend that you go back on your meds, Shogun, and re-up as a moderator. At least you made sense then.

 

[Gunny]

Is that the best you've got?

Not surprising. At least M14 knows well enough to leave this one alone since it proves how totally wrong he is in the Jesus was a commie thread.

You can't have it both ways.

What's to leave alone? What did Jesus do? He walked around the countryside basically calling on the people to follow Him, and listen to Him, and not the religious rulers (Pharisees) of the Jewish state. He amended the word of God and told his followers and listeners that his was the correct version where it came into conflict with the Jewish church.

He does however say to render unto Caesar what is his. I've always understood that to mean to obey Man's law. He did not however say one has to agree with Man's law.

Put into the context of the US, today, there are a LOT of absolutely stupid laws. I assume being the intellectual instigator that you are that you do not agree with them all?

The ones that don't affect us we ignore. The one's that could affect us we skirt. We chafe at the ones we don't agree with but obey anyway. That, IMO, would be exercising free will.

Blindly believing either all laws are good because they are laws or all laws are bad because they are laws would be practicing the sheeple mentality.

 

[ReillyT]

The ones that don't affect us we ignore. The one's that could affect us we skirt. We chafe at the ones we don't agree with but obey anyway. That, IMO, would be exercising free will.

This is essentially what M14 was appearing (I leave it to M14 to make his own case) to disagree with in another thread (I can't remember which one). No reason you could have known that.

 

[Ravi]

He does however say to render unto Caesar what is his. I've always understood that to mean to obey Man's law. He did not however say one has to agree with Man's law.

Bingo.

 

[AllieBaba]

Actually, obey the law of the land.

So long as it doesn't interfere with obeying God.

 

[Gunny]

This is essentially what M14 was appearing (I leave it to M14 to make his own case) to disagree with in another thread (I can't remember which one). No reason you could have known that.

I responded to Manifold's initial statement. The argument of free will is a major nutroll all by itself. I don't presume to think I know what Jesus would or wouldn't do beyond any precedence he has set by his actions, or thoughts he has expressed in words.

Based on that, it is safe to say that Jesus was a nonviolent sort; even though, he did trash the moneychangers' temple. He preached a message contrary to that of the church/state. He DEFINTELY preached a message contrary to the Roman rulers' beliefs. He DID live according to his beliefs and not theirs.

While not a Biblical scholar, I feel safe in assuming that where Man's law conflicts with God's, Jesus would say to obey God's. In the context of my previous post, that would mean where the law does not conflict, to obey Man's law as well as God's.

Jesus' final act kind of says where he stood on the issue. He was crucified for his beliefs and refusal to conform. Whether or not he chose to alter his beliefs and or conform is exercising free will. The decision was his, as was the consequence.

Now weigh that against the argument that everything from Day One to the last is preordained. If God knows alreadyt what one is going to do, how is that exercising free will? Is it really free? How is acting out a script in any way exercising free will?

For those who believe in God/Christianity, there is no answer because the two ideals contradict and we do not know for sure which is true.

 

[Taomon]

Well, not in so many words, but he does claim that Jesus would oppose anything that undermines the Christian principle of free will. And of course that includes all laws and all institutions that enact and enforce law.

I never would've pegged Jesus for a lawless anarchist, but M14 Shooter makes a compelling case.

I don't know about all that, but Jesus would oppose Evangelicals and Catholics.

 

[KungFusion]

"They don't like Christians. It isn't that Christians DO anything, except enrage them by being."

Not unlike how liberals enrage conservatives, while conservatives enrage liberals the way parents enrage teenagers.

 

[KungFusion]

Personally, i'm enraged by fat people on buses, but i don't advocate banning them from marriage.

 

[frazzledgear]

What a load of crap.

What pisses off secular progressives is that Christians don't conform to THEIR ideas of what CHristians should act like.

They don't like Christians. It isn't that Christians DO anything, except enrage them by being.

EXACTLY. Haven't met an atheist and non-Christian yet who doesn't claim HE knows what being a "real" Christian should look like even though it always requires totally re-interpreting Christian doctrine to suit his own agenda. Oddly enough, it is an arrogance they never adopt when discussing ANY non-Christian religion.

 

[frazzledgear]

What makes you think he's a secular progressive?

Maybe because this is the same guy who said he thought Jesus would be standing on the Supreme Court steps holding a sign advocating that women have a "right" to kill their unwanted children as long as they killed them before birth and would demonstrate in favor of gay marriage. Anyone who believes Jesus would do either of those is a secular progressive who not only hasn't read the words of Jesus, but is actively re-writing Christian doctrine to suit himself and his own political agenda -and nothing more. Apparently this guy thinks we can just pick and choose among the many things said by Jesus. Which means we MUST all just ignore His words when he said that a man who divorced his wife and married another woman was guilty of adultery -and just PRETEND that Jesus would have had this miraculous revelation that happened to fit in nicely with his own political agenda that marriage must now be redefined to mean any two people who claimed to love each other and wanted to cohabitate! While also pretending Jesus was REALLY here so that mankind would form a specific kind of leftwing extremist GOVERNMENT -that just happens to be formed from a doctrine written by a man who denounced the religious beliefs of his country's own citizens and helped form the basis of a government that invariably tries to quash them! Give me a break.

 

[frazzledgear]

What's to leave alone? What did Jesus do? He walked around the countryside basically calling on the people to follow Him, and listen to Him, and not the religious rulers (Pharisees) of the Jewish state. He amended the word of God and told his followers and listeners that his was the correct version where it came into conflict with the Jewish church.

He does however say to render unto Caesar what is his. I've always understood that to mean to obey Man's law. He did not however say one has to agree with Man's law.

Put into the context of the US, today, there are a LOT of absolutely stupid laws. I assume being the intellectual instigator that you are that you do not agree with them all?

The ones that don't affect us we ignore. The one's that could affect us we skirt. We chafe at the ones we don't agree with but obey anyway. That, IMO, would be exercising free will.

Blindly believing either all laws are good because they are laws or all laws are bad because they are laws would be practicing the sheeple mentality.

Excellent response.