CDZ Liberty

[Porter Rockwell]

Well this is interesting

What is 'liberty' ...?

Does it mean i have the right to do whatever i want?

What about any given cult doing what they want?

Most of you can see where i'm going....

Where does the line get crossed ????

~S~

A just society is bound by moral absolutes. I think I've quoted the courts to clear this up for you, but I suppose we can begin repeating the same information for those who participate without actually reading the thread.

“By the "absolute rights" of individuals is meant those which are so in their primary and strictest sense, such as would belong to their persons merely in a state of nature, and which every man is entitled to enjoy, whether out of society or in it. The rights of personal security, of personal liberty, and private property do not depend upon the Constitution for their existence. They existed before the Constitution was made, or the government was organized. These are what are termed the "absolute rights" of individuals, which belong to them independently of all government, and which all governments which derive their power from the consent of the governed were instituted to protect.” People v. Berberrich (N. Y.) 20 Barb. 224, 229; McCartee v. Orphan Asylum Soc. (N. Y.) 9 Cow. 437, 511, 513, 18 Am. Dec. 516; People v. Toynbee (N. Y.) 2 Parker, Cr. R. 329, 369, 370 (quoting 1 Bl. Comm. 123) - {1855}


“The absolute rights of individuals may be resolved into the right of personal security, the right of personal liberty, and the right to acquire and enjoy property. These rights are declared to be natural, inherent, and unalienable.” Atchison & N. R. Co. v. Baty, 6 Neb. 37, 40, 29 Am. Rep. 356 (1877)

“Men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,-'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;'and to 'secure,'not grant or create, these rights, governments are instituted.” BUDD v. PEOPLE OF STATE OF NEW YORK, 143 U.S. 517 (1892)

It is not rocket science. AND, it is simple to shepardize the law to see how, when, and who illegally changed the laws.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Yep- all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, among these are the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness- there are no caveats or boundaries- though, arguably, this Country was founded to protect those rights here-

I'd add that the pursuit of happiness entails quite a long list which ultimately defines the whole of freedom from government-over-man. The sum of all of Individual liberty. Liberty from government-over-man.

 

[Gdjjr]

Yep- all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, among these are the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness- there are no caveats or boundaries- though, arguably, this Country was founded to protect those rights here-

I'd add that the pursuit of happiness entails quite a long list which ultimately defines the whole of freedom from government-over-man. The sum of all of Individual liberty. Liberty from government-over-man.

Sadly, (as can be seen in every political forum/message board I've participated in) Liberty doesn't seem to matter- unless it's "my guys" exercising it- both sides of the so-called aisle demand godvernment control the other guy through regulating something- it amazes me the complete lack if self awareness and not just in politics- there seems to be 0 introspection about anything, especially political.
Either everyone counts or no one does.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Sadly, (as can be seen in every political forum/message board I've participated in) Liberty doesn't seem to matter- unless it's "my guys" exercising it- both sides of the so-called aisle demand godvernment control the other guy through regulating something- it amazes me the complete lack if self awareness and not just in politics- there seems to be 0 introspection about anything, especially political.
Either everyone counts or no one does.

I've found that liberty frankly just is not generally understood. For the most part. There are, of course, many who do understand it. But then it just takes us back to what you were saying, and correctly so, that those people are seen as fringe. Which, unfortunately, is why freedom is so unpopular.

 

[Gdjjr]

I've found that liberty frankly just is not generally understood. For the most part. There are, of course, many who do understand it. But then it just takes us back to what you were saying, and correctly so, that those people are seen as fringe. Which, unfortunately, is why freedom is so unpopular.

That brings me to my hot button- Public Education, which is a whole 'nother topic, but, they should be teaching it from the 1st grade through PhD's.

 

[Flash]

Well this is interesting

What is 'liberty' ...?

Does it mean i have the right to do whatever i want?

What about any given cult doing what they want?

Most of you can see where i'm going....

Where does the line get crossed ????

~S~

You may be a little confused.

Libertarians don't believe in no government like the anarchists. They believe in limited government.

As a Conservative with strong Libertarians leanings I believe there is a role for some collective services. We do need a national defense, courts, police etc. We need to pool our money to build roads and pay for it through some kind of a user fee like a fuel tax. Most people would probably agree to fund some level of literacy education providing the schools concentrated on reading, writing and arithmetic and not be an instrument of SJW brainwashing and providing everybody was taxed equally for it.

However, we do not need any kind of welfare, grants, entitlements, bailouts or subsides. Nobody foreign or domestic should be sucking on the teat of government. We need the government to stay the hell out of health care and to drop this silly idea of making us pay for a stupid retirement plan like Social Security.

The government should be small, efficient and fiscally responsible. It should never be allowed to go into debt. Everybody should pay their share for the cost of government. It is wrong to have progressive taxation. It is wrong for me to be forced by the government to pay somebody else's portion simply because I make more money. I should be rewarded for being productive, not taxed more.

The government needs to stay out of the business of trying to run our lives. Limited regulations.

The government should not do stupid things like protecting unions and racial groups and things like that. I should be free to discriminate against anybody I want. I don't need the friggin government telling me who I have to sell my house or to hire or who I can't fire or who I can't prevent from sitting in my diner. That is called Liberty.

 

[Natural Citizen]

For what it's worth, people are talking about things now that just ten years ago wasn't even on their radars. The recent surge in discussion of the more relevant issues that affect freedom in America today today its root back at about '07/'08. I don't care who wants to give themselves credit for it, many will, deservingly or undeservingly, but all that is important is that people get woke. If even just a little woke. And I think we're seeing that to some extent. And it really has the establishment bent up about it.

I don't know if he actually said it, but what Patrick Henry is credited for saying is that it does not take a majority to prevail... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men. Getting elected is probably the last thing I care about these days. I see no difference in either theoretical side of the party of one. Both theoretical sides produce a steady flow of anti-liberty legislation. Changing the course of history, however, is quite another story indeed. That's important. That comes from ideas. The establishment can't stop em anymore. And they know it.

 

[Gdjjr]

No, they are inherent.

I'm born with them?

~S~

Yes-

thx.....

but i didn't 'earn' them simply by being born in America....

~S~

No you didn't.

 

[Gdjjr]

Well this is interesting

What is 'liberty' ...?

Does it mean i have the right to do whatever i want?

What about any given cult doing what they want?

Most of you can see where i'm going....

Where does the line get crossed ????

~S~

I can see where you're trying to go- it ain't working- Liberty is a right determined by the Individual- the line is crossed when one forces his will on another or causes harm to another- that's speaking from a libertarian perspective- ALL conflicts start when one forces his will on another- one has the obligation to defend him and his from harm regardless of the intent/excuse used- the right to defend himself is fundamental to existing-

 

[Gdjjr]

The establishment can't stop em anymore. And they know it.

And they fear it.

 

[Natural Citizen]

That brings me to my hot button- Public Education, which is a whole 'nother topic, but, they should be teaching it from the 1st grade through PhD's.

Republicans used to run on ending the Department of Education. I dunno what happened.

There used to be a book which was mandatory reading in early American schools. I have a copy in my library some place.

It's titled Elementary Catechism on the Constitution of the United States. It's in a rather easy question and answer format. Includes additional documents not available in the original that explain several important issues!


It'd be a good introductory book for adults in the modern era, to be honest. Great for all ages. Respectfully speaking, of course.

 

[Natural Citizen]

The establishment can't stop em anymore. And they know it.

And they fear it.

Ha. Reminds me of a great quote. When the people fear their government, it's tyranny! But when the government fears the people, it's liberty!

 

[Natural Citizen]

Actually, Gdjjr, you reminded me of something with your thought about education. A really great read on the topic of liberty education. I can't post it because it's too long, unfortunately. It's a short chapter from a book I have and you wouldn't find it online anyway. I'll copypasta and pm it to you.

Hold on. It's called ''A 1765 Call to Action - Educate Young and Old For Liberty --- As Timely Today as When Originally Made''

 

[sparky]

Either everyone counts or no one does.

A 'cut one of us, we all bleed' metric i can subscribe to

The government should be small, efficient and fiscally responsible. It should never be allowed to go into debt. Everybody should pay their share for the cost of government

methinks most would agree, sadly we've inversely proportional results

For what it's worth, people are talking about things now that just ten years ago wasn't even on their radars. The recent surge in discussion of the more relevant issues that affect freedom in America today today its root back at about '07/'08

9/11 and the PA, the creation of the American Gestapo(s) ....

It'd be a good introductory book for adults in the modern era, to be honest. Great for all ages. Respectfully speaking, of course.

I wonder if i'd pass the pop quiz!

When the people fear their government, it's tyranny! But when the government fears the people, it's liberty!

Simple and to the point.

But the more i read, listen, learn......

~S~

 

[Mac1958]

Pure "liberty", as it's defined today by its largely-crazed proponents, would be anarchy.

So those who run around screaming about "liberty" have, at some point, been relieved of the common sense required to understand that like everything else, liberty lies along a continuum. That, like everything else, the key is finding the proper equilibrium and balance between an individual's "liberty" and what is best for the country as a whole.

The shallow, binary thinking that has intellectually paralyzed a segment of our population continues to play a significant role in the decay of our political discourse and the acceleration of our divisions.
.

 

[danielpalos]

You claim i do it with nothing but fallacy. Do you despise sublime Truth (value) discoverable through argumentation?

So you have a monopoly on "sublimeTruth" and only by arguing with you will I discover the great wisdom you possess over mankind? Sounds like a mind fuck to me.

lol. I resort to the fewest fallacies. The right wing must be worse.

I don't know a lot about left wing and right wing. It sounds like both sides of a chicken. Today the left and right are like one hand washing the other. There is no fundamental difference between the two at the end of the day. They need each other to make two points that end up going to the same destination.

Having said that, wouldn't mean that you dabble in as many fallacies as anyone else? Isn't that a commonality between political hacks?

No. I prefer to win my arguments not just resort to fallacy, gossip, hearsay, and soothsay. There is a difference.

I don't see where you've done anything of the kind on this thread. But, then again, you never answered me. So, if YOU declare something to be a fallacy, gossip, hearsay or soothsay (sic) then that is like the Word of God and you win any "argument?"

If that's the case, I'm glad this isn't an argument board. This is a discussion board. Was that attitude and those repetitive posts responsible for that vacation the mods gave you recently?

You only have an ad hominem, which is a fallacy and useless for Truth (value) purposes.

You are welcome to re-phrase your question so it is more cogent.

 

[sparky]

That, like everything else, the key is finding the proper equilibrium and balance between an individual's "liberty" and what is best for the country as a whole.

Quite the conundrum, i can think of a few scotus level scuffles Mac

~S~

 

[sparky]

The shallow, binary thinking that has intellectually paralyzed a segment of our population continues to play a significant role in the decay of our political discourse and the acceleration of our divisions.

which i keep insisting is by design....

~S~

 

[Mac1958]

That, like everything else, the key is finding the proper equilibrium and balance between an individual's "liberty" and what is best for the country as a whole.

Quite the conundrum, i can think of a few scotus level scuffles Mac

Sure, because we now lack the capacity to communicate, collaborate, and figure it out amongst ourselves.
.

 

[Flash]

Pure "liberty", as it's defined today by its largely-crazed proponents, would be anarchy.

So those who run around screaming about "liberty" have, at some point, been relieved of the common sense required to understand that like everything else, liberty lies along a continuum. That, like everything else, the key is finding the proper equilibrium and balance between an individual's "liberty" and what is best for the country as a whole.

The shallow, binary thinking that has intellectually paralyzed a segment of our population continues to play a significant role in the decay of our political discourse and the acceleration of our divisions.
.

Liberty can't be defined as having the liberty to kill somebody just because you don't like them.

Conservatives with strong Libertarian beliefs simply want the government to be small, efficient and staying out of their lives for the most part. They want a free economic system where nobody is forced by the government to give their money to other people.

They want individual Liberties protected like religion, free speech and the right to keep and bear arms. They want minimal taxation.

That doesn't mean Libertarians don't want a criminal justice system or build roads or do the few necessary government services. Most of us would agree to fund national defense providing it used to secure America and not fight other peoples wars simply because the VP's son is on the board of directors of a foreign country making $70K a month.