Liberalism has won

[LuvRPgrl]

I need to go make some popcorn; this is going to be interesting.

LOL~~~~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Annie]

I'm not involved. Got that. Really, in case there is any reason to shut it down, I'M NOT INVOLVED!

 

[LuvRPgrl]

For once, I find myself in the strange position of actually agreeing with PM and to some extent, even William Joyce....

Liberalism is not just a political belief, it is a cultural problem.

The Republicans running the hill seem to have lost sight of their core beliefs, fiscal restraint, limited government, strict immigration reform.

The reluctance to address immigration is due, in part, to the fact that Republicans are trying to cozy up to the Hispanic vote.

I'll address one point, federal spending....

In time, limited government is not going to be just an ideal of conservatives, but a fiscal necessity. The deficits that are being racked up year after year are being financed with foreign capital, notably the Chinese.

I learned that the trade deficit is not a measure of the net flow of goods and services crossing our borders, but a net measure of the flow of investment capital across our borders. A large trade deficit means that people in other countries are investing in America. At first that seems like a good thing, until you start to look at what they're investing in... mostly, government securities. Govenment securities, e.g. bonds, are how the government borrows money.

That means that the federal deficit is being financed with foreign capital. The borrowed money is not being used to invest in future growth of the American economy but to finance present day government spending.

In the past, foreign investment by the British helped to build the transcontinental railroad system during the 19th century, that type of investment is a good thing, but today's situation is entirely different.

As the government takes up a larger and larger percentage of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP - which is the sum of all goods and services produced by our economy), our economy and worse yet, our government, is becoming more and more dependent on foreign capital to keep running.

To make things worse, because of the aging population, Social Security spending and Medicare are going to consume an even larger amount of federal spending (and that money is mostly in the form of IOU's, which means even more borrowing from abroad).

To make things worse, Americans save less than 5% of what they take home, so there isn't a large pool of domestic capital to tap.

Worse yet, increased borrowing by the government make it more difficult for the private sector to borrow money (since there is only so much money to go around), so the private sector can't borrow money to grow businesses and the economy.....

Government can't keep raising taxes to finance this insanity either. If it does, it will take away the incentives for making money and eventually hurt the economy (which it already is doing)....

Since we should not borrow more from abroad, plus we shouldn't tax people and business more and there isn't a large supply of domestic capital and to top it all off, there is going to be an huge increase in entitlements in the form of Social Security and Medicare spending, there is only one thing left.....

Since our country is at war, decrease non-defense government spending in real dollars, immediately. That means cancel lots and lots of government pork barrel spending and so forth....

But it has to go further than that, we must also remove a lot of the rules and regulations on businesses, so that they can expand and bring in more money. Money that can be collected in the form of taxes and help to pay down the debt, reduce borrowing and so forth.....

One area that should be addressed is Social Security reform.... by privatizing part of it, you automatically increase the savings rate, you increase the pool of domestic capital and you reduce our dependence on foreign capital.....

P.S. Which is why, I'm no longer a Republican, but a member of the Conservative Party

Bush wanted to reform SS, but he didnt get any support from the middle. ALL republicans are not conservatives. Thats the mistake people make. They think because the Republicans have a majority, then conservatives do. Its not true. 48% Dems, plus 10% moderate or liberal repubs creates a minority for conservative repubs.

Throwing away your vote is just as much a part of the problem. Come back into the light. I disagree with much of what the repubs do, but if they get even more of a majority over time, they can start putting in more conservative practices.

Many of the repubs, like President Bush, barely won. If they dont toe the line to the middle by caving in on some liberal issues, they cant win. Not too long ago, the liberals had more power and control. We have gained enough of it back to stop their momentum. Now we just have to continue untill we can start gaining ground back. It has begun with the supreme court. If we continue to have repubs in the Presidency, then more alitos and Roberts will be appointed, and then the Supreme court can strike down things like affirmative action, homo marriage, etc.etc.

ITS A LONG HAUL, it took us 50 years or so to get here, actually more like 70, starting just before FDR. Dont give up, and dont let up. Bush would cut spending more if he had the power, but he isnt a tyrant, contrary to what dems would want us to believe.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I'm certainly different from most people here. Which is probably one of the reasons why I'm not liked much.

nobody likes either one of the two smartest guys here.

No powerman, get real. Many dont like your style. When you told "MOM" to have some guy go fuck her , or something like that, it really lowered my opinion of you. Those type of things is why so many dont like you, it has nothing to do with you "being different" dont start getting some persecution complex. Hell, Kag is more different than you

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Wow Kath... you stopped him dead in his tracks... :happy2:

and got him to jump into bed!

 

[007]

ITS A LONG HAUL, it took us 50 years or so to get here, actually more like 70, starting just before FDR. Dont give up, and dont let up. Bush would cut spending more if he had the power, but he isnt a tyrant, contrary to what dems would want us to believe.

LINE - ITEM - VETO.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Actually Powerman, 90% of the great things this nation has come out of liberalism.

Is that english?

You mean like unlimited (partial birth) abortion?
normalizing homosexuality?
Creating an education system that graduates kids who cant read or write?
creating such strong unions that ford and GM are gonna go belly up?
Making our tax burden higher than ever?
Creating divorce rates near 50%
Like Since the 60's, when the liberals took over, the crime rates, which had stayed steady for all of our history, started increasing at phenominal rates and continued untill the early ninties?
Like creating a tax code so enourmous and complex even IRS employees whose job is to help citizens figure out their taxes, claim they cant understand a large percentage of it?
Or how you can be charged with murder now if a burler is entering your home and you shoot him?
Like the best get rich scheme is suing someone, so much that you stick someone elses finger in your chili and sue the company?
Like how they make mandatory insurance laws, then the insurance rates get so out of control people cant afford it?


Yea, you can take the 90% if great things if you want. I wont. I believe America isnt built on great things, but good people, and conservatives form over 90% f the good people. People who get up every day, strap on their boots and go to work. They drive their trucks on their farms while liberals in ivy towers call them red necks for voting that they dont want homosexual marriage. They are fathers who fight the courts incessantly so they can see their kids on weekends cuz thats all the liberal courts will give them.

They are parents who pay their property taxes then are called homophobic by liberals when they complain that their kids isnt learning math but is being taught "gay pride month"

They are police officers who put their lives on the line daily, then are chided and fired, when they punch a suspect who just grabbed them by the balls.

They are grunts in the marines and army who lose their legs and when approached in the hospital recovering, their first question is "when can I go back", yet the liberals like Gore try to disqualify their votes because the postmark wasnt put on properly.

I support homosexuality, I think all liberals should be fucked up the ass.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

LINE - ITEM - VETO.

Bush won with, what, 50.00000000000001% of the vote? or did he even get the majority vote and only won on the electoral college?

Which line item veto should he use to disenfranchise even 1% of the voters so he would lose? I know he cant run again, but its a concept. His margin of winning was as sllim as it can get. The repubs have to deal with that. If and when we win over more of a majority,, and gain more of a majority in congress, we will prevail more.

However, I would like to point out two economic errors continuously repeated.

RAISING TAXES DOESNT INCREASE TAX REVENUES. Cutting taxes does. So when PM mentions he will eventually have to raise taxes, its not true.

The spending isnt as out of control as many want to think. or make you think. The percentage of spending of the GDP is not higher than it has been under other administrations. In other words, the countries economy is going along well, we are richer as a nation, our govt naturally would spend more money.

Think of it like you have a business that is exploding in production. Your accountant team, "the govt" has to increase, and your spending on them has to increase also.

I personally think spending could be cut back, ummm, 80% without a loss in ESSENTIAL services. But the American public doesnt see it that way, politicians have to cater to them. EDUCATE THEM, then you get your way with the spending.

 

[Mariner]

list. What's the 80% of gov't spending you'd cut?

Start the fact that 10% is interest on the national debt, which was piled up principally by Reagan and Bush 2 during their tax cutting sprees.

More than 10% is the military, so unless you're going to cut the military, you now have no gov't remaining. (http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm)

Assuming you cut the military, which of these services do you think we can do without?

Medicare--(imagine old people dying in the streets with treatable illnesses)
Social Security--(imagine old people dying in their home when the cat food they're living on runs out)
Science and Health research (imagine the U.S. losing its dominance in science and medicine, not having a clue how to deal with the Bird Flu, say).
Veterans Care--(imagine disabled Veterans without health care--this is an enormous chunk of the federal budget).
Regulations--(imagine Mad Cow disease spreading like mad, and more WVa miners dying, while corporations happily dump their wastes into the nearest river.)
Highways and bridges, etc.
National Parks (lotta good lumber there, sell 'em off!)
The War in Iraq? (save billions by pulling us out!)
Reconstruction after Katrina? (who needs New Orleans anyway?)
The court system (who needs justice anyway?)

Etc., etc. I've challenged people here before, and very few people actually come up with suggestions for what they'd cut. They all say "welfare!" and have this bogey image of a "welfare queen," a black person who is living off their taxes--an image created for Bush's dad out of thin air, playing the race card to the hilt. They think 50% of the federal budget is welfare. Guess what, folks, Clinton killed welfare and it's now a teensy fraction of the federal pie. So what 4/5ths of federal services do you think we could all do without? I'm all ears.

Mariner.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

list. What's the 80% of gov't spending you'd cut?

Start the fact that 10% is interest on the national debt, which was piled up principally by Reagan and Bush 2 during their tax cutting sprees.

More than 10% is the military, so unless you're going to cut the military, you now have no gov't remaining. (http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm)

Assuming you cut the military, which of these services do you think we can do without?

Medicare--(imagine old people dying in the streets with treatable illnesses)
Social Security--(imagine old people dying in their home when the cat food they're living on runs out)
Science and Health research (imagine the U.S. losing its dominance in science and medicine, not having a clue how to deal with the Bird Flu, say).
Veterans Care--(imagine disabled Veterans without health care--this is an enormous chunk of the federal budget).
Regulations--(imagine Mad Cow disease spreading like mad, and more WVa miners dying, while corporations happily dump their wastes into the nearest river.)
Highways and bridges, etc.
National Parks (lotta good lumber there, sell 'em off!)
The War in Iraq? (save billions by pulling us out!)
Reconstruction after Katrina? (who needs New Orleans anyway?)
The court system (who needs justice anyway?)

Etc., etc. I've challenged people here before, and very few people actually come up with suggestions for what they'd cut. They all say "welfare!" and have this bogey image of a "welfare queen," a black person who is living off their taxes--an image created for Bush's dad out of thin air, playing the race card to the hilt. They think 50% of the federal budget is welfare. Guess what, folks, Clinton killed welfare and it's now a teensy fraction of the federal pie. So what 4/5ths of federal services do you think we could all do without? I'm all ears.

Mariner.

Tax cutting doesnt cut revenues, so Im not sure why you dropped that in.

First, end all restrictions on admissions to medical schools. So many doctors would be coming out, the prices would drop drastically.
Eliminate all income taxes.
ALL the seniors could now go to free medical provided by doctors who now dont have to pay huge amounts of income taxes and can give away alot of their time.

The same concepts runs down the road.

YOUR SCARE tactics dont faze me a bit. We went through the great depression without all this federal govt programs and people werent dying in the streets, why would they now?

You and the other elitist liberals want to brainwash people the federal govt has to take care of us BULLSHIT

They take my $8000 a year in income taxes and $6000 goes to pay all the people shoveling around paperwork to decide where the remaining $2000 goes.

THEY DONT PRODUCE ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TELL ME WHAT MEDICAL PROCEDURES DO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PROVIDE???? THEY DONT, NOT ONE FUCKING THING.

NOT ONE
NOT ONE
NOT ONE
NOT ONE

TELL ME OH WISE ONE, WHAT DOES THE GOVT PRODUCE?

widgets? combs? computers? cars? tv's?

THEY ONLY SHUFFLE MONEY AROUND and then claim they are providing medical services. THEY DONT provide JACK SHIT< NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING!

They take our money and wastefully create a program that uses our money to pay for someone elses medical. I GUARANTEE YOU, if an old person doesnt have money, and they needed some medical attention, people, private citizens would get it done.

FACT: during reagans tax cutting years, the money given to charities had its greatest increase in history. WHY? Because the American people care for those who cant take care of themselves.

SO you can go do all the imagining you want, its all liberal scare tactic fantasies that would never happen.

 

[Mariner]

your scheme, provide free care to patients? Do you work for free? Who would buy the medical supplies and provide the hospital facilities needed? You wouldn't care if your doctor graduated in the bottom 10% of his class rather than the top--or didn't even go to college? Be realistic. I spent 4 years in college, 4 in medical school, 4 in residency, and 2 in fellowship, then 6 years of research and postdoctoral learning. I don't deserve to be paid as well as a lawyer who spends 3 years in law school and is done? Or a Harvard MBA with 2 years of graduate school?

Come on, give me a serious list. I'm not using a scare tactic when I describe the consequences of stopping certain gov't activities--I'm describing reality. SS was founded because seniors were starving. Medicare was founded because old people had no health care. And on down the line. There is a reason why we have gov't--it's not just the cancer you seem to think it is.

What does gov't do? Oh, little stuff like inventing the internet that you're using right now.

Would you renege on foreign debts? Which branches of the military don't we need? Give me a serious list to back up your 80% figure.

Mariner.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

your scheme, provide free care to patients? Do you work for free? Who would buy the medical supplies and provide the hospital facilities needed?

Price should be controlled by doctors price competing with each other for services. THis can only be achieved when people control their own health care dollars and comparison shop between providers.

Come on, give me a serious list. I'm not using a scare tactic when I describe the consequences of stopping certain gov't activities--I'm describing reality. SS was founded because seniors were starving. Medicare was founded because old people had no health care. And on down the line. There is a reason why we have gov't--it's not just the cancer you seem to think it is.

What does gov't do? Oh, little stuff like inventing the internet that you're using right now.

Would you renege on foreign debts? Which branches of the military don't we need? Give me a serious list to back up your 80% figure.

Mariner.

The government hires people to do everything. Subcontractors are especially used in the military.

Government is just a way for libs like you to unjustifiably get a cut of the action for doing nothing but being a pompous jerk.

 

[Mariner]

attacks are a way to admit you've lost an argument. I'm not working for the federal gov't, so how am I getting a cut of the action?

How about your list? How much of gov't can you live without? Which services? I am genuinely curious about how conservatives square their vocal hatred of gov't with their actual apparent love of gov't services. Bush being the perfect example--gov't grew 33% during his first term.

Mariner.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

attacks are a way to admit you've lost an argument. I'm not working for the federal gov't, so how am I getting a cut of the action?

How about your list? How much of gov't can you live without? Which services? I am genuinely curious about how conservatives square their vocal hatred of gov't with their actual apparent love of gov't services. Bush being the perfect example--gov't grew 33% during his first term.

Mariner.

Government is just a construct to control. Nothing more. You WANT to work for the fed, and you WILL with socialized medicine. Did the commies promise to make you czar of thermometers?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

your scheme, provide free care to patients? Do you work for free? Who would buy the medical supplies and provide the hospital facilities needed? You wouldn't care if your doctor graduated in the bottom 10% of his class rather than the top--or didn't even go to college? Be realistic. I spent 4 years in college, 4 in medical school, 4 in residency, and 2 in fellowship, then 6 years of research and postdoctoral learning. I don't deserve to be paid as well as a lawyer who spends 3 years in law school and is done? Or a Harvard MBA with 2 years of graduate school?

Come on, give me a serious list. I'm not using a scare tactic when I describe the consequences of stopping certain gov't activities--I'm describing reality. SS was founded because seniors were starving. Medicare was founded because old people had no health care. And on down the line. There is a reason why we have gov't--it's not just the cancer you seem to think it is.

What does gov't do? Oh, little stuff like inventing the internet that you're using right now.

Would you renege on foreign debts? Which branches of the military don't we need? Give me a serious list to back up your 80% figure.

Mariner.

It's not a matter of cutting the existing programs. We cannot renege on promises already made. The conservative ideal is to change the system to reduce the amount of government interference. This means getting the government out of our pocket, our medical care, our retirement plans, etc. and fixing "the system" to reflect a more individual and private approach.

If you like the government system so much, then why don't you become a doctor who cares for only Medicare patients? You'll probably get a true taste of "government medicine". However, if you planned on making the "big bucks" after all that work on your education, you'd better lower your sights.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

your scheme, provide free care to patients? Do you work for free? Who would buy the medical supplies and provide the hospital facilities needed? You wouldn't care if your doctor graduated in the bottom 10% of his class rather than the top--or didn't even go to college? Be realistic. I spent 4 years in college, 4 in medical school, 4 in residency, and 2 in fellowship, then 6 years of research and postdoctoral learning. I don't deserve to be paid as well as a lawyer who spends 3 years in law school and is done? Or a Harvard MBA with 2 years of graduate school?

Come on, give me a serious list. I'm not using a scare tactic when I describe the consequences of stopping certain gov't activities--I'm describing reality. SS was founded because seniors were starving. Medicare was founded because old people had no health care. And on down the line. There is a reason why we have gov't--it's not just the cancer you seem to think it is.

What does gov't do? Oh, little stuff like inventing the internet that you're using right now.

Would you renege on foreign debts? Which branches of the military don't we need? Give me a serious list to back up your 80% figure.

Mariner.

Yes, I do work for free.

So, you think its wrong to ask doctors to volunteer free services, but its ok to steal my money to pay them?.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

attacks are a way to admit you've lost an argument. I'm not working for the federal gov't, so how am I getting a cut of the action?

How about your list? How much of gov't can you live without? Which services? I am genuinely curious about how conservatives square their vocal hatred of gov't with their actual apparent love of gov't services. Bush being the perfect example--gov't grew 33% during his first term.

Mariner.

You are going to medical school or practice medicine? Your love of big govt then would be because of the attempts to put the medical sector into the folds of govt control, which guarantees you payments, and you never have to worry about getting fired.

Funding can be cut by 30-100% on each and every program without a reduction in services.

The govt should not be providing anything but what cant be provided by the private sector.

You did use scare tactics, please provide proof of people dying in the streets prior to medicare.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

attacks are a way to admit you've lost an argument. I'm not working for the federal gov't, so how am I getting a cut of the action?

How about your list? How much of gov't can you live without? Which services? I am genuinely curious about how conservatives square their vocal hatred of gov't with their actual apparent love of gov't services. Bush being the perfect example--gov't grew 33% during his first term.

Mariner.

If ONLY an attack is used, your first sentence MIGHT be true. Even then, sometimes, its just out of frustration.

Where did you get that 33% figure? I dont believe it.
Just because Bush did increase it some, it was not because of us conservatives who want it cut, its to appease the middle, whom without he wouldnt have gotten elected.
Im not sure how you can say "WE" conservatives love govt services just because Bush increased them. Do you love everything the party you vote for and support does? I thought not. Quit with the bogus lies and get real.

 

[Mariner]

I agree with you. I hate paying taxes as much as the next guy. I'm not for any kind of communism or even socialism. I believe in capitalism.

Where I disagree is with modern conservatives' idea that all government is bad, e.g. Grover Norquist wanting to "drown it in a bathtub."

I like getting NOAA weather forecasts before I head out on the ocean. I like that we have a public military rather than private mercenary forces. I like public roads and bridges rather than private toll roads. I love national parks without corporate logos on them. I like public schooling, which levels the playing field for everyone. I like the idea that disabled or sick people can go to a hospital and get care in a totally neutral, secular way.

I'm not for gov't being any bigger than it has to be, and I have no problems with arguments about the specific size and necessity of various programs. That's an ongoing discussion that we ought to be having, just as any family ought to be gathering and looking at the family budget together, seeing what's available for vacations, what they want to save, etc.

I think people like LuvRP are living in LaLa land, making a statement such as 80% of gov't can be cut. Lets see, he honors our foreign debt (gotta do that, or we can't keep borrowing $3 bil a day), and he probably wants to keep fighting in Iraq, so you need to keep some military. So, in LuvRP's ideal world, we have half the military, no social security, no Medicare, no Coast Guard, no other gov't services, no courts, no Congress, and... no President Bush! I wonder what Air Force 1 will auction off for?

As for me, 80% of my patients have Medicare or Medicaid. I have indeed worked in military settings (at VA hospitals), so I do have some idea of gov't from the inside. The type of work I do does not pay well--my brother, the heart surgeon, makes about 10 times what I do. I didn't set out to do this to make $$.

Mariner.

PS 33%. I read that recently in the NYT or The Week magazine. I'll have to look for the source. In the meantime, here's a piece from the (conservative) Cato institute which critiques Bush's spending growth thru 2003: http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-31-03.html And, another which says 43% over 5 years: http://www.cato.org/new/01-06/01-26-06r.html

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I agree with you. I hate paying taxes as much as the next guy. I'm not for any kind of communism or even socialism. I believe in capitalism.



Where I disagree is with modern conservatives' idea that all government is bad, e.g. Grover Norquist wanting to "drown it in a bathtub."

Nobody here is an anarchist, that I'm aware of. Nice strawman argument.