Let's have an informal Poll

[eric]

I have had enough of people calling us flag-waving war-mongers, and trying to imply a lack of intellegence or reasoning on our part, that somehow we need your pity. The ones who require pity are you two. The sad part is that you acctually believe that by your attacks on this land, our leader, and anyone who happens to agree with them, that this somehow places you on a more intellectual level or on higher moral ground. Unfortunately I do not see this, what I see are two pathetic people unable to navigate the capitalistic waters of this country. Knowing that there voices carry no real weight and just blend into the echos of dissent. It is funny but I do not hear my friend and associates complain all the time, they are too busy enjoying all this country has to offer.

Do we see the ills of this nation, of course we do, but we still recognize it is the greatest nation on earth. You want to keep calling me a flag-waver for that, go ahead. In fact when I look out my window I can see my flag against the backdrop of our beach, and to me this sight is beautiful, and meaningful.

I do not live in some idealistic, what could be, what should be, world, life is far too short, and it is all in vain anyway. Lets be realistic, humanity is not about to change anytime soon, so you can forget your visions of a single human race without boarders. Nations boarders may disappear, only to be replaced by corporate ones. This is the direction that we are heading so you have two choices: get used to it and learn to play the game, or bitch, moan, complain, and demonstrate all you want, your just wasting your life. A little selfish, absolutely, but at least I am true to my nature. I really could care less about the distant future of this world, and my children will not have to worry, they will have the resources they need for a good life.

So keep on thinking you are somehow superior to us little lambs, while we laugh all the way to the bank !

 

[janeeng]

AMEN to that!!!!!!!!!!

It's just a shame to have a few that have such hatred and such silly words to say about the Country they live in!!!!!!! quite pathetic!!!!!

I wonder if they support the new stap, clebrating Islam - removal of the ten commandments, nativity scene!! just amazes me on how some think today!!! The values are sure lacking!!!!

 

[dijetlo]

By Eric]/i]
Nations boarders may disappear, only to be replaced by corporate ones. This is the direction that we are heading so you have two choices: get used to it and learn to play the game, or bitch, moan, complain, and demonstrate all you want, your just wasting your life. A little selfish, absolutely, but at least I am true to my nature. I really could care less about the distant future of this world, and my children will not have to worry, they will have the resources they need for a good life.

Spit that out, dude!!!!! That's the cool-aide!!!!
Take heart trooper, this is not the first time our little democracy has dealt with this threat. We don't have to sign our childrens future over to a multi-national corporation. It will take some sacrifices, to be sure, but we will eventually drive this fad back into the pack of interests that rule our nation. Don't be so quick to give up on the principles our flag is founded on. I got the constitution, I got the bill of rights, they wont take me without a fight.

 

[eric]

Dijetlo,

You are a reasonable man, I hope you can understand where I am comming from. I'll say it again, I have no problem with dissent, in fact, I disagree with many things myself. Though I can not stand the superior moral tone that keeps repeating itself throught the fourms. I am a man who has firm beliefs in values and morals, and I do not think that having pride in my country should be ridiculed. It is not blind pride, I know this nation has done wrong, but she has also done right. Never before has there been a country who has gained so much power, so quickly, yet used it so wisely. This does not forgive us our sins, but should temper our contempt. This is the feeling I get from many posters, a literal comtempt of our nation, yet they enjoy the many benifits offered to its citizens. They speak of intellegence and respect, yet they label our acting president a criminal, show me where the respect is. You can not debate effectively without such cheap shots, then your intellegence is in question. I was raised to respect and appreciate this great land, as my parents did, they kissed the ground when they arrived here from Nazi Germany.
Times have changed and I guess so have values and morals, I have seen the decline of our society since the liberal influences of the 60's and 70's and anyone who thinks this is a better country for it, is either too young to remember, a fool, or just another loser looking to justify their behavior. So label me as you may, I know these values, morals, and priciples make me a better person.

 

[nbdysfu]

US troops

 

[dijetlo]

Contempt runs both ways, Eric, as does disrespect for the intelligence of the opposition. It is a recurring theme from the right and the left on this board and across popular political culture.
As for respect for Bush, I respect the office, though I think the man ill serves it. We are about to elect a president, the cries of foul over arguing against the incumbent don't make much sense to me, that's what an election is all about. If the challengers are not free to point at the glaring problems in this administrations policies and procedures, why bother to have an election at all?
As for insulting the troops, it runs against my personal feelings but who am I to tell someone else what to say? Additionaly, I don't think either of the two posters were being malicious, they were strongly expressing their respective points of view.
Occasionaly, I will read a post where I think someone is being stupid or offensive. I can attack the person, or I can attack the beleif. I think the second option is allways more entertaining.

 

[eric]

Your missing the point. I could care less about their contempt for me or any one on the right. My problem is with the contempt for our nation. You do not agree with our current president, that is fine, but show show restraint. Tell me though what message it sends to the world when we call him a criminal? If you can not understand this argument then I am sorry for you.

 

[dijetlo]

Originally posted by eric
Your missing the point. I could care less about their contempt for me or any one on the right. My problem is with the contempt for our nation. You do not agree with our current president, that is fine, but show show restraint. Tell me though what message it sends to the world when we call him a criminal? If you can not understand this argument then I am sorry for you.

I understand your point, but the same people crying foul now were doing much worse to Clinton, who was also a president, a few years ago. I heard him called a murderer, a theif, an embezzeler by the same folks who think this president should be spared critisicm. I have to wonder how much of this comes from a respect for the office of President and how much is just partisan loyalty showing through since I never heard this argument from the right when it was a Dem screwing up, did you?
What was good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't normaly grant exceptions to that rule as I look at american politics.

 

[green lantern]

our soldiers deserve nothing but our respect. i to have friends who have served in our military, and they are all decent and honorable human beings. whether you agree or disagree with our president, everyone would do well to remember who stands between us and the multiple threats we face from around the world. it will be our brave men and women of the united states armed forces.

 

[eric]

I heard him called a murderer, a theif, an embezzeler

Not by me, even though I disagreed with almost all of his policy decisions and voiced my opinion, but I did it in a respectful way, even though he made a mockery out of the office of the President.
I could care less what people have to say about an ex-president, but some measure of respect should be afforded a sitting one.

What was good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't normaly grant exceptions to that rule as I look at american politics.

I'm sorry but this attitude does not help in restoring some decency to politics and society in general.

 

[eric]

Welcome to the board Green_Lantern !

 

[eric]

whether you agree or disagree with our president, everyone would do well to remember who stands between us and the multiple threats we face from around the world. it will be our brave men and women of the united states armed forces.

Too bad some people think they are suckers or just deluded by the current administration !

 

[dijetlo]

Originally posted by eric
Not by me, even though I disagreed with almost all of his policy decisions and voiced my opinion, but I did it in a respectful way,

I would have predicted that to be true, but you are one voice out of many here. I doubt others practiced the same restraint. Did you argue so vehemently in defense of Clinton? Please don't take offense at the question, I actually think you might have, I was just not associated with this board at that time so I don't know.

I'm sorry but this attitude does not help in restoring some decency to politics and society in general.

Decency is such a subjective term (much like pornography," I know it when I see it"). I'd settle for honesty.

 

[eric]

I actually think you might have, I was just not associated with this board at that time so I don't know

Neither was I at the time. I will be honest I did not defend Clinton but I did defend the office.

Decency is such a subjective term

Yes it is, but common sense, which you obviously have, is in order. The attacks must stop for the good of the nation and its world image. I think you will agree.

 

[Bry]

While you're busy heaping insults and putting words in my mouth, Eric, perhaps you could do me the honor of pointing to the specific content of my posts that's gotten you so in a wedgie? I never called US Soldiers "suckers" or said anything about their education, and when SLClemmens did (it was a week ago, I swear) in the heat of a rapid fire exchange, he was quick to qualify his remarks substantially.

Frankly, I have no time for your predictions of corporations ruling the world, and how we'd just better get used to it.

Noone is above criticism, and noone is deserving of de facto praise. Soldiers, just like anyone else, have to live their lives, and may be judged by the sum of their actions, not by the simple fact of having joined a military organization. (For the record, I did not "call" our soldiers Nazis, either, I simply drew an obvious parallel in order to demonstrate that soldiers are not inherently admirable people.) I have not generally insulted them, but you have generally praised them, and that I think is short sighted. There are so many examples of bad soldiers in our military history, that I feel dizzy just trying to settle on one example. As for our president, well, I have to agree with dijetlo. Presidents must be critisized and held accountable. That (I would argue) is what democracy is all about. And lest you forget my political views, don't bother labeling my motivations partisan. I was just as critical of Clinton as I am of Bush.

The attacks must stop for the good of the nation and its world image. I think you will agree

If you're referring to "attacks" of criticism regarding how this administration has conducted its foreign policy, you couldn't be more wrong. On the other hand, your comment wasn't intended for me because I seem to be one of those who in your estimation lack common sense.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by dijetlo
Additionaly, I don't think either of the two posters were being malicious, they were strongly expressing their respective points of view.

When you tell someone to refrain from referring to the troops as suckers or they will be banned, would you expect them to stop? Maybe find an alternative way to express their feelings?

How about inferring they are stupid by saying a lot are uneducated from the midwest?

How about continually putting them in the same light as nazi's?

How about calling them storm troopers?

It was point blank name calling when it was clearly expressed by the board administrator and forum moderator that it was not acceptable. Ignoring that request and saying things to some how make their points valid isn't malicious?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Bry
While you're busy heaping insults and putting words in my mouth, Eric, perhaps you could do me the honor of pointing to the specific content of my posts that's gotten you so in a wedgie? I never called US Soldiers "suckers" or said anything about their education,

What about referring to them as storm troopers and comparing them to nazi henchmen?

 

[dijetlo]

Originally posted by eric
The attacks must stop for the good of the nation and its world image. I think you will agree.

Nope, but as allways it has been a pleasure debating it with you. I didn't defend Clinton but my reasoning is a little different. Domesticaly, it's a free country. Political speech is constitutionaly protected. If you throw around wild and unsubstantiated accusations, a la Wesley Clark, you suffer for it politicaly. What people say on message boards is similarly moderated. If you want to be taken seriously you have to stick to the facts. Things you can prove, things that can be proved. Criminality falls into that realm and the arguments rise and fall on their merit. Stifling it is not really an option nor would I favor it if it were. If the administration can't defend its' policies, the fault lies with the administration, not the attackers.
A good example is my favorite conspiracy theory that GWB is George Tenets' sock puppet. While you can be upset that I've phrased it that way (did he have to call the president a sock puppet?) I might use these words because it is an amusing and telling peice of imagery. It has the added advantage of being true.
:
It all comes back to the goose and gander for me. What other people think of us is there business, though I think a lot of countries are reassured that more moderate forces appear to be on the rise here. Being the lone superpower is not a tenured position,we should tread litely because we have the big stick. I think we will allways be divided on this one, though your point about terrorists could well be true. I tend to beleive that the harm they can cause us is miniscule compared to the harm we can cause ourselves.

 

[Joan]

I have to wonder how much of this comes from a respect for the office of President and how much is just partisan loyalty showing through since I never heard this argument from the right when it was a Dem screwing up, did you?

I had respect for Clinton up until HE HIMSELF showed no respect for the office of President!! As for respecting the Nazi soldiers, I imagine the people of their country respected them, and rightfully so. And as Americans, I believe we should respect our military whether or not we believe in the cause! Most of the objections to the Vietnam war came from draft dodging flower children high on drugs! My cousin was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam, and was actually spit on when getting off the plane returning to California! This I think is a disgrace! As we all sit here expressing our opinions so freely - I think we should thank our military for the freedoms we have!!

 

[Annie]

I support our troops wherever and whenever called, they have no choice in where or how they serve. To answer the call of your country, whether as a soldier, police officer, or firefighter is heroic. Are there 'bad ones'? Undoubtedly. Yet they are by far and away such a tiny percentage that it is not worth speaking of, though worth prosecuting them for.

I think and agree, that Eric became upset that Clemens seemed to assume that because one joins the military, they are unable or unprepared to survive in the 'real world.' I disagree. Sure, many join because their families are unable to foot the college tab or many times because the young adult wants to find a way to pay for it themselves, or recognizes they need more time to develop as a person before further studies. To me, this is a sign that many in the military are far more mature than some of those going out of high school onto the college campus and getting drunk or stoned every Friday and Saturday, (and sometimes more).

Supporting the troops has nothing to do with being pro or anti war, rather it's an acknowledgement that their are some, a few, willing to risk all for the greater good.