Zone1 Leftists, do you agree that kids should receive sex-change operations without parental knowing?

[francoHFW]

A boy is not a girl.

Telling a boy that he is a girl, encouraging him to believe that, is abusive and harmful. And subjecting him to quasi-medical Frankensteinery that fucks his body up for life, to reinforce that falsehood, even more so.

For that matter, encouraging any minor, toward any fucked-up sexual perversion, is abusive and harmful.

That you even think of defending this shit tells us all that anyone needs to know about you; not that it is anything that we do not all already know about you.

What if the kid is desperate and is cutting themselves and trying to commit suicide? Is there any compromise. They take the drugs but not the surgery or something I don't know that's why they have doctors and psychologists and psychiatrists

 

[Bob Blaylock]

What if the kid is desperate and is cutting themselves and trying to commit suicide? Is there any compromise. They take the drugs but not the surgery or something I don't know that's why they have doctors and psychologists and psychiatrists

Such a kid has a seriously fucked mind, and is in need of serious psychological/psychiatric help.

Fucking up his body is no treatment for a fucked-up mind.

 

[Curried Goats]

Such a kid has a seriously fucked mind, and is in need of serious psychological/psychiatric help.

Fucking up his body is no treatment for a fucked-up mind.

The professionals recommend understanding and support for children's gender diverse identities. It might be better to force bigots into counseling as psychiatrists list ignorant bigots as one of leading causes of their psychological distress.

 

[JoeB131]

A boy is not a girl.

Telling a boy that he is a girl, encouraging him to believe that, is abusive and harmful. And subjecting him to quasi-medical Frankensteinery that fucks his body up for life, to reinforce that falsehood, even more so.

See, you are already starting on the wrong premise, that trans people only think about being trans is because someone is "telling" them. No one is telling them anything, they are just realizing that they are in the wrong body.

For that matter, encouraging any minor, toward any fucked-up sexual perversion, is abusive and harmful.

Wow, did you like forget what it was like to be a teenager? Teenagers are horny! The thought that they need to be "encouraged" is laughable, at best. If anything, they figure this out on their own, which is why

Sexual Behavior in the Human Male

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In these terms (of physical contact to the point of orgasm), the data in the present study indicate that at least 37 percent of the male population has some homosexual experience between the beginning of adolescence and old age. This is more than one male in three of the persons that one may meet as he passes along a city street. Among the males who remain unmarried until the age of 35, almost exactly 50 per cent have homosexual experience between the beginning of adolescence and that age. . . . These figures are, of course, considerably higher than any which have previously been estimated. . . .

That you even think of defending this shit tells us all that anyone needs to know about you; not that it is anything that we do not all already know about you.

That I live in the real world, and not some Mormon Fantasy World?

Look, buddy, when you rule your own planet in the Celestial Heaven in the Afterlife, you can make whatever rules you want, but in this one, some people are going to be gay, some people are going to be Trans, and there's just not all that much you can do about it.

 

[JoeB131]

Dont think that because a citizen opposing sex reassignment surgery for young folks that AUTOMATICALLY makes them "

Um, yes, I actually do think that most of the people who are going hysterical over this are bigots, especially given how rarely these treatments are given.

That's just bunk. What IS NOT bunk is that the surgical decision IS about "cutting off little childrens' penises (or boobs)"

A judge is just a surrogate for the law AND to some extent -- community values. To have a law on this -- it can NOT BE EVEN a self declaration of which 39 genders the CHILD prefers. SO -- any activist judges that rule in favor of such surgery should have to take responsibility for the FUTURE OUTCOMES of that decision. And we KNOW the "regret rate" is AWFULLY damn high - if suicide doesn't end that life first.

Do we know that? Only 1% of people who have surgically transitioned transition back, and the suicide rate of trans people who get gender-affirming care is lower than those who do not get it.

So the community weighs in with equal weight on issues like this one. Sex reassignment surgery in MOST ALL parent minds is something left for a decision WITH a child's INFORMED and tested consent at LATER AGES....

And in principle, I agree with you that these kinds of treatments should be done with caution, unlike, let's say, pumping gallons of Ritalin into our youth to make them more manageable. Treatment should only happen AFTER there has been a thorough evaluation. That said, if these kinds of treatments are the best way forward, it's probably better to start them while the body is still developing.

A new study from the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law finds that 81% of transgender adults in the U.S. have thought about suicide, 42% of transgender adults have attempted it, and 56% have engaged in non-suicidal self-injury over their lifetimes.

Yes, because of the way society treats them. Not because they have actually gotten the care, which REDUCES depression and suicidal thoughts.

in Fact...

Suicide-Related Outcomes Following Gender-Affirming Treatment: A Review

Gender-affirming treatment remains a topic of controversy; of particular concern is whether gender-affirming treatment reduces suicidality. A narrative review was undertaken evaluating suicide-related outcomes following gender-affirming surgery, hormones, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A narrative review was undertaken evaluating suicide-related outcomes following gender-affirming surgery, hormones, and/or puberty blockers. Of the 23 studies that met the inclusion criteria, the majority indicated a reduction in suicidality following gender-affirming treatment;

But ANY state has the right to pass legislation prohibiting gender surgeries as they see fit.

Wasn't this the same logic the bigots in the South used to justify Jim Crow and miscegenation laws?

 

[JoeB131]

Such a kid has a seriously fucked mind, and is in need of serious psychological/psychiatric help.

Fucking up his body is no treatment for a fucked-up mind.

So, where is our outrage over Rhinoplasties, breast augmentation, Blepharoplasties, hair transplants, gastric bypass operations, liposuction, face lifts, etc?

Seems like your tolerance for "Fucking up the body" is pretty selective, Bob.

I personally find Blepharoplasties kind of offensive. We've convinced thousands of Asians that looking Asian is bad, so they undergo these surguries to look more white.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Because a tattoo isn't healthcare and we shouldn't have to pretend that it is or treat it the same. A 13 year old can't have a tattoo but she can decide whether she wants to be on birth control.

Neither is growing up. Neither is removing a healthy penis or breasts.

Birth control at 13 !!

 

[Curried Goats]

Neither is growing up. Neither is removing a healthy penis or breasts.

Birth control at 13 !!

Birth control doesn't just help teenagers avoid pregnancy it can also help regulate hormones and make periods lighter with less severe cramping. My cousin is my daughter's pediatrician and that's the reason she suggested starting her on birth control at 13.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Birth control doesn't just help teenagers avoid pregnancy it can also help regulate hormones and make periods lighter with less severe cramping. My cousin is my daughter's pediatrician and that's the reason she suggested starting her on birth control at 13.

Do you think it's moral for an underage person to be having intercourse

 

[Curried Goats]

Do you think it's moral for an underage person to be having intercourse

I think morality is subjective and therfore not objectively real. That said, subjectively I don't really see anything morally wrong with teenagers having sex with one another.

 

[Captain Caveman]

I think morality is subjective and therefore not objectively real. That said, subjectively I don't really see anything morally wrong with teenagers having sex with one another.

^^^^^ And that's why morals in society are declining.

What is the age of consent in the US, between 16 and 18, and you feel youngsters below this are more than welcome to knob one another?

 

[Curried Goats]

^^^^^ And that's why morals in society are declining.

You think morals were better when 40 year old slavers like Jefferson were raping their teenage slaves and denying their parentage of their offspring? Or maybe pre 1990s when it was still legal to rape your wife? When were we at our most moral?

 

[JoeB131]

I think morality is subjective and therfore not objectively real. That said, subjectively I don't really see anything morally wrong with teenagers having sex with one another.

And that's why morals in society are declining.

Since when? In the 19th Century, 14 was considered marrying age. Marriage usually followed pregnancy.

If anything, we've created this artificial notion of "adulthood" starting at 18 or 21 or 26.

 

[hadit]

Children only get those drugs under supervision of medical professionals. It's not like you simply go to a pharmacy and pick them up like it's Tylenol. Again, most children who get these drugs are much more comfortable after.

Are they really, for the long term? What are the suicide rates for people post-transition?

Let me put it like this. Not allowing those drugs for children who want and need them cause some of them to commit suicide. In fact, and I won't say I have data to support it, this is more common than children changing their mind after they have been given gender affirming care. I dare say being dead has a more profound effect than having to live with the effects of been given hormones when you're young.

1. Why are we NOW supposedly seeing large numbers of children committing suicide because they don't feel comfortable in their own bodies? What changed from before?
2. Please look at the suicide rates AFTER transitioning for comparison. Why are these people killing themselves?

I maintain that many, if not most, children who feel uncomfortable in their own bodies tend to level out after their hormones settle down when they reach adulthood. It's THEN that they should seek to make their bodies appear more masculine or feminine, when they can make a truly informed decision, not when their hormones and emotions are all over the place. I believe that's why we didn't have an epidemic of kids killing themselves because they couldn't be the opposite sex. I also maintain that many, if not most, of these kids have other issues besides sexual identity, and when they are pushed into transitioning, regret that choice after a while because they don't feel better but have likely been made sterile and can't have a normal physical relationship with someone else. Again, let's try to figure out what's going on with these kids before permanently messing with their bodies. If an adult wants to alter their own body and are capable of understanding all the ramifications, that can be their choice. I do not believe that children are really capable of making that kind of decision for themselves.

 

[hadit]

I would depend on the case. If you had one parent who took him to the doctor, but the other parent is a religious bigot, then, yes, I can see where they should be able to get gender affirming care. .

Aside from your obvious antipathy towards anyone who disagrees with you (you really shouldn't seek to shut their opinions down just because they gore your sacred cows, you know), the person in question should be an adult and able to make a truly informed decision before getting permanent, body and life altering treatments. We don't let children get tattoos and we shouldn't mess with their bodies like this.

 

[JoeB131]

Aside from your obvious antipathy towards anyone who disagrees with you (you really shouldn't seek to shut their opinions down just because they gore your sacred cows, you know), the person in question should be an adult and able to make a truly informed decision before getting permanent, body and life altering treatments. We don't let children get tattoos and we shouldn't mess with their bodies like this.

Oh, bullshit, Wet Fart.

We drug up thousands of kids with SSRI's to make them more manageable. Heck, I even saw a commercial for one of these drugs, where little Timmy was running around like a spaz before the drug but being polite and helping with the dishes afterward.

Tatoos aren't medical treatment, Gender affirming care is.

 

[hadit]

Oh, bullshit, Wet Fart.

We drug up thousands of kids with SSRI's to make them more manageable. Heck, I even saw a commercial for one of these drugs, where little Timmy was running around like a spaz before the drug but being polite and helping with the dishes afterward.

Well, dingleberry, I agree that we drug up kids WAAAAY too often today and is one reason why I champion parents who are willing to put the work into schooling their kids at home. The sole reason why we reach for those drugs is very simple, we want kids to sit down and shut up for 6 hours a day so they don't cause too many problems in school. A kid schooled at home, OTOH, can be free to run around outside between lessons instead of being robotically stuffed into a chair while some other kid worse off than him forces the teacher to double the amount of time needed to teach. So, what is your complaint again, you don't like homeschooling because it puts children out of reach of the vaunted government? Question, what are government schoolteachers supposed to do with active little Johnny who is bored out of his mind and needs to run if they can't drug him into compliance?

Tatoos aren't medical treatment, Gender affirming care is.

It wasn't very long ago that ramming a steel rod into the brains of people who were feeling bad and acting up was considered proper medical treatment as well, and before that the best medical minds we had killed an ex-president by draining his blood, thinking they were helping him. Medical care changes as we understand more, and it is my prediction that in the relatively near future society will look back in horror at the thought that we actually cut body parts off of kids, tried to create other body parts and messed up their natural development for the sole purpose of making their bodies look more feminine or masculine.

 

[JoeB131]

Well, dingleberry, I agree that we drug up kids WAAAAY too often today and is one reason why I champion parents who are willing to put the work into schooling their kids at home. The sole reason why we reach for those drugs is very simple, we want kids to sit down and shut up for 6 hours a day so they don't cause too many problems in school. A kid schooled at home, OTOH, can be free to run around outside between lessons instead of being robotically stuffed into a chair while some other kid worse off than him forces the teacher to double the amount of time needed to teach. So, what is your complaint again, you don't like homeschooling because it puts children out of reach of the vaunted government? Question, what are government schoolteachers supposed to do with active little Johnny who is bored out of his mind and needs to run if they can't drug him into compliance?

It wasn't very long ago that ramming a steel rod into the brains of people who were feeling bad and acting up was considered proper medical treatment as well, and before that the best medical minds we had killed an ex-president by draining his blood, thinking they were helping him. Medical care changes as we understand more, and it is my prediction that in the relatively near future society will look back in horror at the thought that we actually cut body parts off of kids, tried to create other body parts and messed up their natural development for the sole purpose of making their bodies look more feminine or masculine.

My complaint about homeschooling is that they have poor social skills and end up being religious assholes.

Until your side comes up with a better treatment for transgender, gender affirming care is the best we have.

 

[hadit]

My complaint about homeschooling is that they have poor social skills and end up being religious assholes.

The funny thing is, you probably interact with homeschooled people all the time and have no idea because they are perfectly well adjusted and leave you alone because you're obviously an anti-religious bigot.

Until your side comes up with a better treatment for transgender, gender affirming care is the best we have.

And here I thought that medicine was not supposed to be political, but there you go, saying it is. Would you reject a better treatment if "your side" came up with it?

 

[Captain Caveman]

You think morals were better when 40 year old slavers like Jefferson were raping their teenage slaves and denying their parentage of their offspring? Or maybe pre 1990s when it was still legal to rape your wife? When were we at our most moral?

Zone 1 - so I can't say, I'll have to bite my tongue.