Leftist Shock Doctrine

[Old Rocks]

I have never bought into the idea that Democrats are Socialists or that they want to be Socialists. However, their belief that government can do more for society than society can do for itself is leading to larger and larger government. At the same time, Republicans of late have been a part of this thinking as evidenced by the expansion of government under Bush. Now we see the Dems pushing for even more government involvement.

What we must now ask ourselves is how much do we want the governement to grow? Since the 1960's, federal government spending has totaled approximately 20% of GDP, give or take a few points up or down. All of a sudden, this spending is jumping to nearly 26% of GDP and may well be headed to 30%. To make matters worse, spending for SS, Medicare, and Medicaid has built in increases that cannot be changed without revamping those programs completely. At the current rate, government spending on these entitlement programs alone will increase government spending to 40% of GDP by around 2075. If we increase current spending from 20% to 30%, that would push government spending to over 50% by 2075, and this is with the assumption that we actually pay for some of this and don't continue borrowing to pay for it all.

Now, to make matters even worse, healthcare spending continues to rise. Currently, we spend nearly 17% of GDP on healthcare. However, there are estimates that at the current rate of growth, healthcare spending will increase to over 45% of GDP itself by 2080. Ezra Klein: Health Economics Archives

The bottom line is that we are faced with a situation where we must make some drastic changes. First of all, healthcare spending must be brought under control. Even if we control the spending, healthcare costs will still increase due to our aging population. The question is by how much do we allow that spending to increase. Secondly, borrowing by the federal government has to stop, as the cost to service that debt will begin growing exponentially if we don't. This means we will be facing higher taxation, whether we like it or not. There is no scenario in which we will be able to continue paying lower taxes over the long term. And the sooner we understand this, the less it will cost us in the long run.

The solution is to revamp SS, Medicare, and Medicaid, and to revamp our entire healthcare system where costs will be somewhat contained. Secondlly, discretionary spending must be cut where possible. Cuts in discretionary spending will be minimal as it's just not that big a part of the budget. Delaying payments for SS and Medicare until age 70 would be a big step in the right direction to help reduce some of the increases being faced for those programs. Last of all, taxes must be increased to the point that this can be paid for as we go, and so that the debt is eventually reduced as a percentage of GDP. That is the absolute most important part of the solution. If the debt continues to grow, the interest on that debt will eventually cost us more than all federal programs combined. In other words, it will bankrupt us.

I understand what you are saying. However, for someone in my line of work, going to seventy is an option of only a very few. There are jobs that are still intensively physical, that also require real technical skills. Industrial Millwrighting is one of those jobs. I will retire this year at the age of 66. I am still capable of doing the work, but I pay for it in pain at the end of every hard day now. Could I go another 4 years? Maybe, but why should I? A better solution is to leave the age of retirement where it is now, and put the 6.3% SS tax on all earned income.

 

[Ravi]

Just for the record.

She has written a few columns criticizing Obama. Gentle criticism, to be sure...but criticism nevertheless. I fully expect that she will continue as Obama continues to be more of a capitalist than she wishes him to be.

She may be a koolaid drinker, but as far as I can tell she is a consistent koolaid drinker.

 

[del]

Just for the record.

She has written a few columns criticizing Obama. Gentle criticism, to be sure...but criticism nevertheless. I fully expect that she will continue as Obama continues to be more of a capitalist than she wishes him to be.

She may be a koolaid drinker, but as far as I can tell she is a consistent koolaid drinker.

a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

just sayin

 

[editec]

Liberalism strives to make a just society through government.

Conservatives strive to make a wealthy society through market forces.

There's the difference as far as I can see.

One set (liberals) believe the government can help things stay functional through taxation and regulation.

Conservatives believe that anything which interfers with the market is inefficient and some kind of enslavement.

They're BOTH RIGHT and BOTH WRONG.

Government will ALWAYS be unjust and the market, left entirely to its own devices gives us what we're SEEING NOW!

Capitalism is the political system which eats itself... if left to its own devices.

Socialism is the political system which eats society itself ... if left to its own devices.

 

[DiamondDave]

Liberalism strives to make a just society through government.

Conservatives strive to make a wealthy society through market forces.

There's the difference as far as I can see.

One set (liberals) believe the government can help things stay functional through taxation and regulation.

Conservatives believe that anything which interfers with the market is inefficient and some kind of enslavement.

They're BOTH RIGHT and BOTH WRONG.

Government will ALWAYS be unjust and the market, left entirely to its own devices gives us what we're SEEING NOW!

Capitalism is the political system which eats itself... if left to its own devices.

Socialism is the political system which eats society itself ... if left to its own devices.

Absolutely laughable

Liberals are not trying to make society "just"... they are trying to make the society UNJUST by manipulating the outcome of effort and benefiting the lazy, underachieving, and those who have failed in an attempt to earn their favor so that they can gain more power through government

The Conservatives don't only strive for market forces, but the freedom that has the possibility of success and failure, and to support the personal responsibility therein

The funny thing is that we are not where we are because the market "was left to it's own devices"... but that is yet another myth the liberals try and say over and over again in an attempt to have the gullible believe them.. and the more they can say it, the more they will scream they have the answer by punishing those who do have some success, and get the gullible voted to hand over more power to the government

 

[jillian]

Absolutely laughable

Liberals are not trying to make society "just"... they are trying to make the society UNJUST by manipulating the outcome of effort and benefiting the lazy, underachieving, and those who have failed in an attempt to earn their favor so that they can gain more power through government

The Conservatives don't only strive for market forces, but the freedom that has the possibility of success and failure, and to support the personal responsibility therein

The funny thing is that we are not where we are because the market "was left to it's own devices"... but that is yet another myth the liberals try and say over and over again in an attempt to have the gullible believe them.. and the more they can say it, the more they will scream they have the answer by punishing those who do have some success, and get the gullible voted to hand over more power to the government

you need to put down the kool aid.

Liberals are responsible for every advance society has ever made. If it were not for "liberals", we would still be under church rule in the Dark Ages and this country wouldn't exist because the people who founded it were radicals. The conservatives of that day were Tories.

Reality: Liberals want to move society ahead and have an equal application of rights and privileges... in other words, a level playing field. Conservatives, who are actual conservatives and not the fire breathing "jesus is a republican" types, are the people who are supposed to, under ideal circumstances, say "whoa, nellie, slow down, pay attention and look at what you're doing before you go galavanting into new territory". I see them as kind of the bankers of the political world... the smart guys in the room who are supposed to make you assess and be a little more cautious.

Unfortunately, that concept of conservatism has been perverted by neo-cons and right wing reactionaries who call themselves conservatives.

But the truth is, if conservatives had their way in toto, we'd still belive the earth was flat since it was a radical idea to believe otherwise.

 

[DiamondDave]

The misconception that Conservatives are against any change or advancement.... more liberal sloganeering based on an absolute fallacy

and liberals are responsible for every advancement in society... LMFAO....

 

[jillian]

well, that was *almost* a response.

 

[DiamondDave]

Not much of a response when you put out such utter bullshit..

Try something based in reality and not off of a baseless slogan...

and you honestly BELIEVE that crapola???

 

[xsited1]

Absolutely laughable

Liberals are not trying to make society "just"... they are trying to make the society UNJUST by manipulating the outcome of effort and benefiting the lazy, underachieving, and those who have failed in an attempt to earn their favor so that they can gain more power through government

The Conservatives don't only strive for market forces, but the freedom that has the possibility of success and failure, and to support the personal responsibility therein

The funny thing is that we are not where we are because the market "was left to it's own devices"... but that is yet another myth the liberals try and say over and over again in an attempt to have the gullible believe them.. and the more they can say it, the more they will scream they have the answer by punishing those who do have some success, and get the gullible voted to hand over more power to the government

you need to put down the kool aid.

Liberals are responsible for every advance society has ever made. If it were not for "liberals", we would still be under church rule in the Dark Ages and this country wouldn't exist because the people who founded it were radicals. The conservatives of that day were Tories.

Reality: Liberals want to move society ahead and have an equal application of rights and privileges... in other words, a level playing field. Conservatives, who are actual conservatives and not the fire breathing "jesus is a republican" types, are the people who are supposed to, under ideal circumstances, say "whoa, nellie, slow down, pay attention and look at what you're doing before you go galavanting into new territory". I see them as kind of the bankers of the political world... the smart guys in the room who are supposed to make you assess and be a little more cautious.

Unfortunately, that concept of conservatism has been perverted by neo-cons and right wing reactionaries who call themselves conservatives.

But the truth is, if conservatives had their way in toto, we'd still belive the earth was flat since it was a radical idea to believe otherwise.

Awesome troll post! Keep it up!

 

[Red Dawn]

The misconception that Conservatives are against any change or advancement.... more liberal sloganeering based on an absolute fallacy

and liberals are responsible for every advancement in society... LMFAO....

I'll give rightwingers props for making a bunch of noise about a flat tax, and introducing creation science to public schools.

but, generally speaking, rightwingers were nowhere to be found in the women's sufferage movement, the labor movement, civil rights movement, the environmental movement, or the gay rights movement. And the rightwing has a long and sordid history of standing in the way of scientific advancement.

Sorry, the rightwing is little more than a historical speed bump that delays human progress

 

[editec]

The conservatives of the past would be called , based on what they did then, screaming liberals by the crop of today's conservatives.

Look at what NiXXon did while in office.

He passed some the most progressive politicies we have into law.

 

[jillian]

The conservatives of the past would be called , based on what they did then, screaming liberals by the crop of today's conservatives.

Look at what NiXXon did while in office.

He passed some the most progressive politicies we have into law.

And now politics has moved so far right that Nixon couldn't even get the Democratic nomination.

He'd have been a tree-hugging, secularist, commie. lol..

 

[DiamondDave]

The misconception that Conservatives are against any change or advancement.... more liberal sloganeering based on an absolute fallacy

and liberals are responsible for every advancement in society... LMFAO....

I'll give rightwingers props for making a bunch of noise about a flat tax, and introducing creation science to public schools.

but, generally speaking, rightwingers were nowhere to be found in the women's sufferage movement, the labor movement, the environmental movement, or the gay rights movement. And the rightwing has a long and sordid history of standing in the way of scientific advancement.

Sorry, the rightwing is little more than a historical speed bump that delays human progress

Why not give props for the truth

Try and have the striving for equality, with ALL the positives and negatives that go with that liberty

Try having personal religious beliefs not squashed by a public school system. Try having it stated in that school that no actual theory has been proven and tell kids to strive for their beliefs AND their continuing advancement in understanding thru research and study. Try explaining to students the difference between proof, fact, and theory.

Sorry... but it is the liberal that stands in the way... change for the sake of change... jumping to conclusions and using the ensuing fear to gain more control over society... and being self-proclaimed know it alls, even though many MANY of the 'advancements' and 'new facts' have shown thru time to be nothing more than bullshit that would make a habitual liar blush

 

[xsited1]

The misconception that Conservatives are against any change or advancement.... more liberal sloganeering based on an absolute fallacy

and liberals are responsible for every advancement in society... LMFAO....

I'll give rightwingers props for making a bunch of noise about a flat tax, and introducing creation science to public schools.

but, generally speaking, rightwingers were nowhere to be found in the women's sufferage movement, the labor movement, civil rights movement, the environmental movement, or the gay rights movement. And the rightwing has a long and sordid history of standing in the way of scientific advancement.

Sorry, the rightwing is little more than a historical speed bump that delays human progress

Honestly, I don't know if you folks are being trolls or are actually being serious. Obviously, what you're posting is inaccurate so I hope you're trolling. Just let me know. Otherwise, I'll assume these are troll posts and they are cracking me up!

 

[bk1983]

I note there were thousands and thousands of earmarked projects going to a whole lot of states run by Republicans.

Who is exploiting this crises, again?

Everybody in a position to do so, obviously.

Right. Because everyone knows that the federal budget is written by state governors.

Uhh no, but everyone should know that a large number of Republican members of congress slipped earmarks into the spending bill for there respective state.

 

[Red Dawn]

The misconception that Conservatives are against any change or advancement.... more liberal sloganeering based on an absolute fallacy

and liberals are responsible for every advancement in society... LMFAO....

I'll give rightwingers props for making a bunch of noise about a flat tax, and introducing creation science to public schools.

but, generally speaking, rightwingers were nowhere to be found in the women's sufferage movement, the labor movement, civil rights movement, the environmental movement, or the gay rights movement. And the rightwing has a long and sordid history of standing in the way of scientific advancement.

Sorry, the rightwing is little more than a historical speed bump that delays human progress

Honestly, I don't know if you folks are being trolls or are actually being serious. Obviously, what you're posting is inaccurate so I hope you're trolling. Just let me know. Otherwise, I'll assume these are troll posts and they are cracking me up!

Lots of emotion, and fainting spells in there....but not one single, solitary word to refute what I said.

Is it your contention that the William F. Buckley, and Jerry Falwell movement conservatives were on the forefront of the gay rights movement, civil rights, and women's sufferage?

 

[editec]

William F Buckely was a member of NAACP, actually.

While I certainly do not agree in his POV in its entirety, he is, unlike so many so called conservatives today, logical and consistent, given his presuppositions.

I greatly admire a lot of conservatives.

Most of the real conservatives who I admire, these board knownothings (who like to think of themselves as conservatives while they're actually nothing but reactionary morons, of course) don't have a clue about in most cases.

Rush lmbough is no more a real conservative than I am.

Less so, actually.

He's hatemonger, so naturally he's got a loyal following.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Liberalism strives to make a just society through government.

Conservatives strive to make a wealthy society through market forces.

Wrong. Conservatives strive to make a just society by giving people freedom and the same basic set of rules. This also allows for people to create their own wealth. Liberals strive to create a just universe, attempting to impose their own personal standards of justice onto an uncaring cosmos they cannot possibly control. This ends up creating an unjust society, since it ignores the realities of what people are.

One set (liberals) believe the government can help things stay functional through taxation and regulation.

Conservatives believe that anything which interfers with the market is inefficient and some kind of enslavement.

Liberals believe government is powerful enough to change the laws of nature. Conservatives know that it is only powerful enough to make people miserable while it tries.

Government will ALWAYS be unjust and the market, left entirely to its own devices gives us what we're SEEING NOW!

You wish. Leftists always meddle in things they don't understand, trying to tinker with forces they can't possibly control, and then blame the resulting mess on the system they screwed up, instead of on their own interference.

Capitalism is the political system which eats itself... if left to its own devices.

No, it just eats ignorant liberals who don't have the gumption to fend for themselves.

Socialism is the political system which eats society itself ... if left to its own devices.

At least you got something right.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The conservatives of the past would be called , based on what they did then, screaming liberals by the crop of today's conservatives.

Look at what NiXXon did while in office.

He passed some the most progressive politicies we have into law.

When did Nixon become the poster child for conservatism? Damned near the only conservative thing about the man was his staunch opposition to Soviet/communist spying in the US early in his career. In all other things he was, at best, a moderate.