Just For Grampa, the Karl Marx thread

[Uncensored2008]

Gampa Murked U was complaining that there aren't serious discussion threads. At the same time I was complaining that most of the leftists on this board don't know anything about Karl Marx and the Marxism they based their political views (via Olbermann, Maddow, Stewart, et al) on.

So, I figured I'd address both complaints in one thread, a serious discussion of the ideas of Karl Marx - not a caricature, but the actual ideals of Marx.

Here are the basic resources needed:

Manifesto of the Communist Party

The Communist Manifesto is the foundational work of Marx and Engles that defines what Communism is.

Economic Manuscripts: Capital: Volume One

Das Kapital is the economic treatise underpinning Marxism and modern leftism. 80% or more of the concepts present in any given Obama speech are derived from Das Kapital.

Discuss.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Now the discussion is over my head. LOL

I've never studied the subject. Hence I never use the term or participate in said threads.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Marx is fascinating. Many of the ideas he put forth have merit. While the observations of Das Kapital are more realistically a critique of the dying gasp of feudalism and not truly capitalism, there are still many valuable insights.

Some people view Chomsky and Zinn as "respectable" Marxism, which is a shame. Marx had a far greater grasp of economics and human nature than Chomsky. Zinn is the "Yoko" of the group.

Here is a passage from Capital;

{If we abstract from the material substance of the circulation of commodities, that is, from the exchange of the various use-values, and consider only the economic forms produced by this process of circulation, we find its final result to be money: this final product of the circulation of commodities is the first form in which capital appears.

As a matter of history, capital, as opposed to landed property, invariably takes the form at first of money; it appears as moneyed wealth, as the capital of the merchant and of the usurer. [1] But we have no need to refer to the origin of capital in order to discover that the first form of appearance of capital is money. We can see it daily under our very eyes. All new capital, to commence with, comes on the stage, that is, on the market, whether of commodities, labour, or money, even in our days, in the shape of money that by a definite process has to be transformed into capital. }

Marx is arguing that the base of capital is represented by money. That wealth, rather than value is the primary medium of exchange in markets.

Would you agree with this? I'll refrain from answering until I see whether others have opinions on this.

 

[Moonglow]

many ideas sound good, but fail when involving humans in action

 

[Uncensored2008]

many ideas sound good, but fail when involving humans in action

Why?

I posted a section from capital on money as a foundational platform.

Is Marx right? Why or why not?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Marx is fascinating. Many of the ideas he put forth have merit. While the observations of Das Kapital are more realistically a critique of the dying gasp of feudalism and not truly capitalism, there are still many valuable insights.

Some people view Chomsky and Zinn as "respectable" Marxism, which is a shame. Marx had a far greater grasp of economics and human nature than Chomsky. Zinn is the "Yoko" of the group.

Here is a passage from Capital;

{If we abstract from the material substance of the circulation of commodities, that is, from the exchange of the various use-values, and consider only the economic forms produced by this process of circulation, we find its final result to be money: this final product of the circulation of commodities is the first form in which capital appears.

As a matter of history, capital, as opposed to landed property, invariably takes the form at first of money; it appears as moneyed wealth, as the capital of the merchant and of the usurer. [1] But we have no need to refer to the origin of capital in order to discover that the first form of appearance of capital is money. We can see it daily under our very eyes. All new capital, to commence with, comes on the stage, that is, on the market, whether of commodities, labour, or money, even in our days, in the shape of money that by a definite process has to be transformed into capital. }

Marx is arguing that the base of capital is represented by money. That wealth, rather than value is the primary medium of exchange in markets.

Would you agree with this? I'll refrain from answering until I see whether others have opinions on this.

I don't agree with Marx. I think the truth of the matter exists somewhere in between.

Neither Marx nor the Austrians have it right.

The truth of the matter is somewhere in the middle of the two. Both "Wealth" and "Value" are mediums of exchange in markets.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I don't agree with Marx. I think the truth of the matter exists somewhere in between.

Neither Marx nor the Austrians have it right.

The truth of the matter is somewhere in the middle of the two. Both "Wealth" and "Value" are mediums of exchange in markets.

Does wealth exist without value?

Part of the breakdown of the Weimar Republic was that the currency had no value due to confiscatory taxation, heavy debt burden, and open corruption. Clearly "money" was not the source of capital in that situation due to the complete lack of value in the monetary supply.

We strive for that which we value.

 

[daveman]

How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

-- Ronald Reagan

 

[ClosedCaption]

Gampa Murked U was complaining that there aren't serious discussion threads. At the same time I was complaining that most of the leftists on this board don't know anything about Karl Marx and the Marxism they based their political views (via Olbermann, Maddow, Stewart, et al) on.

So, I figured I'd address both complaints in one thread, a serious discussion of the ideas of Karl Marx - not a caricature, but the actual ideals of Marx.

Here are the basic resources needed:

Manifesto of the Communist Party

The Communist Manifesto is the foundational work of Marx and Engles that defines what Communism is.

Economic Manuscripts: Capital: Volume One

Das Kapital is the economic treatise underpinning Marxism and modern leftism. 80% or more of the concepts present in any given Obama speech are derived from Das Kapital.

Discuss.

100% of that is bullshit

 

[jillian]

Now the discussion is over my head. LOL

I've never studied the subject. Hence I never use the term or participate in said threads.

the o/p's insanity isn't worth participating with anyway.

 

[jillian]

How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

-- Ronald Reagan

that wasn't very smart of him. in fact, it was pretty stupid. because "reading" is just obtaining knowledge... so you don't say idiotic things like anyone to the left is a commie. maybe if people actual read what marx and engels really talked about they'd know that was a lie.

of course, it would actually require obtaining that knowledge.

p.s. every student of political science has to read marx and engels... along with hobbs and locke and mill, etc.

 

[daveman]

How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

-- Ronald Reagan

that wasn't very smart of him. in fact, it was pretty stupid. because "reading" is just obtaining knowledge... so you don't say idiotic things like anyone to the left is a commie. maybe if people actual read what marx and engels really talked about they'd know that was a lie.

That's not what Reagan said. Perhaps you need to read what he wrote. And try to understand it.

of course, it would actually require obtaining that knowledge.

p.s. every student of political science has to read marx and engels... along with hobbs and locke and mill, etc.

And the stupid ones believe Marx and Engels.

 

[Toro]

Marx understood perhaps sooner than most that the concept of capital is elastic and at least partially dependent upon confidence, and thus intrinsic and separate from currency in circulation. He is generally correct about this nature of capital. (He is wrong about capital being exploitive.)

 

[occupied]

He wrote one of the best contemporary accounts of the timeline of the start of the American civil war I have ever read.

Articles by Marx in the U.S. Civil War 1861

It is clear that he was an extraordinary student of history and a damned good journalist to boot.

As for his communism writings, It has been 30 years since I had the interest to read them and they did not have a huge impact on my belief system, any socialism I have came from the American socialists of the 20s-30s.

 

[jillian]

That's not what Reagan said. Perhaps you need to read what he wrote. And try to understand it.

i read the quote. and it seems to me that the people throwing around the words marxist and socialist haven't a clue about what those things are. you telling me to "understand it" is pretty funny.

And the stupid ones believe Marx and Engels.

marx's miscalculation was in believing anyone willingly gives up either money or power. which is why such systems naturally fail.

 

[Valox]

Das Kapital is the economic treatise underpinning Marxism and modern leftism. 80% or more of the concepts present in any given Obama speech are derived from Das Kapital.

Discuss.

Given the fact that the Obama administration is 80% continuation of the Bush administration, then we can safely call Republicans Marxists too.

 

[Valox]

marx's miscalculation was in believing anyone willingly gives up either money or power. which is why such systems naturally fail.

Actually, you are a stupid bitch who just made up a sentence that makes no complete sense at all, yet you probably hypocritically self-congratulated yourself for your elucidation.

WTH does this even mean and what pages are you quoting your drivel from?


If Marx believed this willingly, then why did he advocate for transitional period of statism, which Proudhon rightfully lambasted? Please, elucidate us....after all, you political science majors read Proudon.....you dumb troll.

 

[Unkotare]

The better question to start with would be whether "the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles," as Marx claims.


If you want to tie something to today's politics (and the presidential campaign specifically), this would be a better angle.

 

[Valox]

The better question to start with would be whether "the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles," as Marx claims.


If you want to tie something to today's politics (and the presidential campaign specifically), this would be a better angle.

Banks, corporations, and stockholders are doing very well under Obama's economy.

WTF are you are talking about?

 

[Unkotare]

Is that your way of completely avoiding the topic?