Just For Grampa, the Karl Marx thread

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Uncensored2008, Feb 20, 2012.

  1. Uncensored2008
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    Uncensored2008 Libertarian Radical Supporting Member

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    Gampa Murked U was complaining that there aren't serious discussion threads. At the same time I was complaining that most of the leftists on this board don't know anything about Karl Marx and the Marxism they based their political views (via Olbermann, Maddow, Stewart, et al) on.

    So, I figured I'd address both complaints in one thread, a serious discussion of the ideas of Karl Marx - not a caricature, but the actual ideals of Marx.

    Here are the basic resources needed:

    Manifesto of the Communist Party

    The Communist Manifesto is the foundational work of Marx and Engles that defines what Communism is.

    Economic Manuscripts: Capital: Volume One

    Das Kapital is the economic treatise underpinning Marxism and modern leftism. 80% or more of the concepts present in any given Obama speech are derived from Das Kapital.

    Discuss.
     
  2. Grampa Murked U
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    Grampa Murked U Gold Member

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    Now the discussion is over my head. LOL

    I've never studied the subject. Hence I never use the term or participate in said threads.
     
  3. Uncensored2008
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    Uncensored2008 Libertarian Radical Supporting Member

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    Marx is fascinating. Many of the ideas he put forth have merit. While the observations of Das Kapital are more realistically a critique of the dying gasp of feudalism and not truly capitalism, there are still many valuable insights.

    Some people view Chomsky and Zinn as "respectable" Marxism, which is a shame. Marx had a far greater grasp of economics and human nature than Chomsky. Zinn is the "Yoko" of the group.

    Here is a passage from Capital;

    {If we abstract from the material substance of the circulation of commodities, that is, from the exchange of the various use-values, and consider only the economic forms produced by this process of circulation, we find its final result to be money: this final product of the circulation of commodities is the first form in which capital appears.

    As a matter of history, capital, as opposed to landed property, invariably takes the form at first of money; it appears as moneyed wealth, as the capital of the merchant and of the usurer. [1] But we have no need to refer to the origin of capital in order to discover that the first form of appearance of capital is money. We can see it daily under our very eyes. All new capital, to commence with, comes on the stage, that is, on the market, whether of commodities, labour, or money, even in our days, in the shape of money that by a definite process has to be transformed into capital. }

    Marx is arguing that the base of capital is represented by money. That wealth, rather than value is the primary medium of exchange in markets.

    Would you agree with this? I'll refrain from answering until I see whether others have opinions on this.
     
  4. Moonglow
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    Moonglow Gold Member

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    many ideas sound good, but fail when involving humans in action
     
  5. Uncensored2008
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    Uncensored2008 Libertarian Radical Supporting Member

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    Why?

    I posted a section from capital on money as a foundational platform.

    Is Marx right? Why or why not?
     
  6. theDoctorisIn
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    theDoctorisIn Senior Mod Staff Member

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    I don't agree with Marx. I think the truth of the matter exists somewhere in between.

    Neither Marx nor the Austrians have it right.

    The truth of the matter is somewhere in the middle of the two. Both "Wealth" and "Value" are mediums of exchange in markets.
     
  7. Uncensored2008
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    Uncensored2008 Libertarian Radical Supporting Member

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    Does wealth exist without value?

    Part of the breakdown of the Weimar Republic was that the currency had no value due to confiscatory taxation, heavy debt burden, and open corruption. Clearly "money" was not the source of capital in that situation due to the complete lack of value in the monetary supply.

    We strive for that which we value.
     
  8. daveman
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    daveman Gold Member

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    How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

    -- Ronald Reagan
     
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  9. ClosedCaption
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    ClosedCaption Gold Member

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    100% of that is bullshit
     
  10. jillian
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    jillian Princess Supporting Member

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    the o/p's insanity isn't worth participating with anyway.
     

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