Just For Grampa, the Karl Marx thread

[HUGGY]

I don't agree with Marx. I think the truth of the matter exists somewhere in between.

Neither Marx nor the Austrians have it right.

The truth of the matter is somewhere in the middle of the two. Both "Wealth" and "Value" are mediums of exchange in markets.

Does wealth exist without value?

Part of the breakdown of the Weimar Republic was that the currency had no value due to confiscatory taxation, heavy debt burden, and open corruption. Clearly "money" was not the source of capital in that situation due to the complete lack of value in the monetary supply.

We strive for that which we value.

Corruption in the USSR was not only "open" ..it was rampant. Communism was not workable in the settings it was attempted because of the human nature of those people. If you take a bunch of drunks that have been learning deceptive methods just to get by for centuries and force them to be a collective.. you still have a bunch of stealing alcoholics running things. It failed not because of the economics ..it failed because the Russians are losers..always were ...always will be.

 

[daveman]

I'm sure that comforts you.

Any student of history will tell you that no matter how brilliant Marx' ideas were, the end result is that following them created an ocean of spilled blood. Well, any student of real history.

Theory is fine. I prefer to look at results.

I knew it was a waste of time to try to have a serious discussion with someone whose wisdom is expressed in bumper-sticker bites, but what the hell, it was a good try.

For those capable of serious thought, Marx was dead before the Russian Revolution occurred, and there is plenty of evidence in his writings that he wouldn't have approved of it. There are plenty of flaws in Marxism, but the outcome in so-called (but misnamed) "Communist" states isn't one of them. That's more bumper-sticker logic.

Yes, let's just pretend that the hundred million deaths caused by Communists never happened, and that Communists used Marx' writings to justify themselves.

That's the "enlightened and serious" thing to do.

 

[Dragon]

Yes, let's just pretend that the hundred million deaths caused by Communists never happened, and that Communists used Marx' writings to justify themselves.

That's the "enlightened and serious" thing to do.

Or hey, here's a novel thought: let's engage in a little critical thinking, why don't we, instead of just jerking our knees? I really recommend it, if you're capable of the feat.

 

[HUGGY]

I'm sure that comforts you.

Any student of history will tell you that no matter how brilliant Marx' ideas were, the end result is that following them created an ocean of spilled blood. Well, any student of real history.

Theory is fine. I prefer to look at results.

I knew it was a waste of time to try to have a serious discussion with someone whose wisdom is expressed in bumper-sticker bites, but what the hell, it was a good try.

For those capable of serious thought, Marx was dead before the Russian Revolution occurred, and there is plenty of evidence in his writings that he wouldn't have approved of it. There are plenty of flaws in Marxism, but the outcome in so-called (but misnamed) "Communist" states isn't one of them. That's more bumper-sticker logic.

Yes, let's just pretend that the hundred million deaths caused by Communists never happened, and that Communists used Marx' writings to justify themselves.

That's the "enlightened and serious" thing to do.

Communism didn't kill millions...Stalin killed millions. Pol Pot killed millions. There has never been a pure example of communism tried. What we have seen is totalinarianism disguised as communism.

 

[daveman]

Yes, let's just pretend that the hundred million deaths caused by Communists never happened, and that Communists used Marx' writings to justify themselves.

That's the "enlightened and serious" thing to do.

Or hey, here's a novel thought: let's engage in a little critical thinking, why don't we, instead of just jerking our knees? I really recommend it, if you're capable of the feat.

When leftists say "You don't think critically!!" they really mean "You don't agree with everything I say!!"

Again: Results matter. In the real world.

 

[daveman]

I knew it was a waste of time to try to have a serious discussion with someone whose wisdom is expressed in bumper-sticker bites, but what the hell, it was a good try.

For those capable of serious thought, Marx was dead before the Russian Revolution occurred, and there is plenty of evidence in his writings that he wouldn't have approved of it. There are plenty of flaws in Marxism, but the outcome in so-called (but misnamed) "Communist" states isn't one of them. That's more bumper-sticker logic.

Yes, let's just pretend that the hundred million deaths caused by Communists never happened, and that Communists used Marx' writings to justify themselves.

That's the "enlightened and serious" thing to do.

Communism didn't kill millions...Stalin killed millions. Pol Pot killed millions. There has never been a pure example of communism tried. What we have seen is totalinarianism disguised as communism.

That's because Communism immediately devolves into totalitarianism. It's happened every time, and WILL happen every time.

And because of that, Communism simply isn't worth trying.

 

[Toro]

Communism didn't kill millions...Stalin killed millions. Pol Pot killed millions. There has never been a pure example of communism tried. What we have seen is totalinarianism disguised as communism.

The forced collectivization of farms in the Ukraine as the transition from private to collective ownership caused famine and killed millions of people in the 1930s.

Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[HUGGY]

Communism didn't kill millions...Stalin killed millions. Pol Pot killed millions. There has never been a pure example of communism tried. What we have seen is totalinarianism disguised as communism.

The forced collectivization of farms in the Ukraine as the transition from private to collective ownership caused famine and killed millions of people in the 1930s.

Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you are confusing "private ownership" of the surfs, which was non existant, with the "private ownership" of those given land by the previous rulers in Russia. People starved in the Ukraine long before Stalin gained power. There is a reason why it was for the most part a popular revolution.

 

[Toro]

Communism didn't kill millions...Stalin killed millions. Pol Pot killed millions. There has never been a pure example of communism tried. What we have seen is totalinarianism disguised as communism.

The forced collectivization of farms in the Ukraine as the transition from private to collective ownership caused famine and killed millions of people in the 1930s.

Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you are confusing "private ownership" of the surfs, which was non existant, with the "private ownership" of those given land by the previous rulers in Russia. People starved in the Ukraine long before Stalin gained power. There is a reason why it was for the most part a popular revolution.

But it was still private ownership, despite the feudal nature of Ukrainian agriculture. The collectivization of farms caused agricultural production to fall off a cliff. The famine which ensued was massive, and not comparable to the general level of hunger in the previous decades. Similar episodes have occurred elsewhere, particularly in Africa. During the Soviet era, small plots of land were allowed to be held by farmers and the productivity was 3x-4x greater than the collectives.

 

[Uncensored2008]

His ideas were NOT brilliant, of course. His analysis of history was insightful, but when he ventured to predict future trends he went right off the rails and as a result led hundreds of millions to servitude, death, and dehumanization.

You hit on an important point. In the Marxian view, individualism is discounted. Marx viewed people as parts of a great machine. Lenin took this even further, with his famous line that we are all mere cogs in a wheel. As such, individuals have value only as part of the machine of society, a part to be used, and one easily replaced.

This base dehumanization is one of the primary features of Marxism and modern leftism, that an individual life has little or no value. The environmental movement is the most glaring example of the disdain the left has for life, and the gross dehumanization that underscores leftism.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I think you are confusing "private ownership" of the surfs, which was non existant, with the "private ownership" of those given land by the previous rulers in Russia.

First off, the word is "serfs."

Secondly. the Kulaks were very much land owners. This was much of the root of the strife between them and Stalin, the Kulaks had land grants going back a thousand years, which Lenin negated, with the Kulaks ignoring Lenin's imperial edicts. With the death of Lenin and Stalin consolidating power, the option to simply ignore Moscow was lost. Stalin murdered 23 million Kulaks directly to impose collectivism.

People starved in the Ukraine long before Stalin gained power. There is a reason why it was for the most part a popular revolution.

The Ukraine is the bread basket of the world, even more fertile than the American Great Plains.

 

[Unkotare]

So, what do all the would-be Marxists of today think about the communist proposal to abolish the family? You radicals in favor of that too?

 

[Uncensored2008]

So, what do all the would-be Marxists of today think about the communist proposal to abolish the family? You radicals in favor of that too?

One of the primary reasons for this thread was to demonstrate that most of those spouting Marxist rhetoric here have not so much as a hint of a clue as to the meanings and goals of what they support. They think that what they spout is all original and new thoughts from Obama.

 

[Unkotare]

I note with dismay the state of the traditional family everywhere that politics and policies leaning in the direction of the failed ideology of Marx are influencing societies.

 

[Zixxer]

This makes cute scholarly cocktail party chit chat, but is meaningless. Talk to some former East Germans, like I have worked with, to find out what communism is about. How come there's never any mention of deaths caused my communism or why the first thing communists do is imprison everyone they don't like? Watch the PBS special "After the Wall" to see what communism is really about. How would you like to drive cars that haven't seen a technical innovation since 1966? The Trabant model 601 was the only car available for sale in East Germany and it had a FIFTEEN year waiting list. It had a top speed under 50 mph and a stinking to high heaven polluting TWO cylinder two stroke engine. A common joke was "What does the 601 stand for? ans: 600 were ordered and only one was delivered." If communism is so great. Why do people risk their lives to escape from it?

 

[Uncensored2008]

This makes cute scholarly cocktail party chit chat, but is meaningless. Talk to some former East Germans, like I have worked with, to find out what communism is about. How come there's never any mention of deaths caused my communism or why the first thing communists do is imprison everyone they don't like? Watch the PBS special "After the Wall" to see what communism is really about.

It's important to understand Marx, so that as Marxist programs are implemented, we know what they are and where they lead.

This nation is at a critical juncture and is veering toward the policies and methods that East Germans lived under.