Josh Duggar And The Message Of Forgiveness

[Vandalshandle]

So, Fox, you would have no problem if the guy next door to you and your children had a history of child molestation, because you have not seen any evidence of it for over a decade?

 

[Mertex]

But without evidence that Josh Duggar is a danger to himself or anybody else, to drag all these people through the mud 12 years later for no better reason than it can be done and it is a slow news week is just wrong.

"Without evidence" - because he picks on children that don't have a voice? And there is a reason, to prevent another child from being abused. Since you yourself claim that we "don't know" whether Josh is a danger to others, wouldn't it be in the best interest of children (especially his) that it be determined whether or not he is still a predator?

Isn't that for those involved in the situation to determine though?

Well yes, I haven't sent any e-mails or demanded my Congressman do something.

There is zero evidence that there have been any further incidents since Josh fessed up his sin.

There is zero evidence because no one has looked into it or because they have done an investigation and found none of his children or others having been offended?

We don't know what psychological evaluations or background checks there have been, but in most organizations involving children these days, those are pretty comprehensive. And yes, some pervs and serial offenders still get through the background checks.

Yes, when it is reported and DHS is involved, which I believe they are now and are currently investigating.

But it is not for us who are not there, who don't know, who can't know what has been done or what the situation is to judge who and what Josh Duggar is now, 12 years after his offenses as a 14-15 year old kid. If everybody who ever did anything sexually inappropriate as a curious kid is to be forever condemned, there won't be a hell of a lot of us who aren't condemned.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I never did anything sexually inappropriate when I was 14, 15, 16, 17, or ever. We're talking criminal action here.....I really don't believe that too many people would be condemned for something like that. But I don't see anything wrong with people expressing their opinions and demanding an investigation, why should Josh be given a pass?

Well good for you that you never did anything inappropriate. I doubt many people can say that.

I seriously doubt it....while some may admit to doing inappropriate things, I doubt that many would admit to having committed sexual crimes. Children being curious with other children is different than a 15 year old touching his sister's privates....that's not just inappropriate, it is considered criminal.


Lewd conduct that involves minors is considered a felony offense. When an adult engages in behavior involving a child that is intended to arouse the sexual libido of the aggressor or the child, the offender will most likely be charged with a felony crime of lewd conduct. When an individual is convicted of lewd conduct involving a child, they will face incarceration, fines, and other serious penalties.

Persons who are convicted of lewd conduct involving a minor must also register as a sex offender where they live, work, or otherwise reside. This information is intended to inform the public about sexual offenders and sexual predators in their communities. Sex offender registries are accessible to the general public, prospective and current employers, government agencies, educational institutions, and who ever else wishes to access this information.
Lewd conduct - Criminal Law Lawyer Source

Penal Code 288 PC is a crime committed by touching a child somewhere on his/her body for sexual purposes.1 Justice officials sometimes refer to this offense as "lewd acts on a minor under 14" or "acts of lewd and lascivious conduct."

These cases typically involve accusations that the child was touched or fondled on a sexual organ, or that some overt act of child molestation took place.

However, one can be charged with lewd acts even if the touching was not on a sexual organ, and even if the touching was done over the child's clothes (rather than on the bare skin).2
Penal Code 288 - Lewd Acts with a Child under 14

I had my own experiences with the neighborhood boys around that age and while extremely annoying and sometimes embarrassing it certainly did not traumatize me.

There is a difference when you are a willing participant than when you are being taken advantage of. You are thoroughly missing the point.

Nor do I believe any of those boys, or a couple of girls who were sexually aggressive, grew up to be perverts or molesters or anything other than decent family men or women and good citizens. Certainly it would never have occurred to me to report them 12 years after the fact.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Being a willing participant, is not the same as being taken advantage of. If the boys had been "adults" and were being sexually aggressive with you as a minor, if you had reported it, it could have been treated as a crime. And, no, you wouldn't have reported them because you were a willing participant, and you weren't an innocent child.

And I'm pretty sure their parents to this day have no clue what they were doing back then. But could I and some of the other girls make their lives miserable by outing them now in the always-willing-for-a-good-scandal media? Sure we could. And it would be cruel and wrong to do so.

Well, it would have been rather embarrassing for you and the other girls if it was uncovered that you all were willing participants as you weren't forced and society would not look so kindly on you for waiting to report it 12 years later. If it had been reported right away, and the boys were considered "adults", it would have been a different matter.

Josh's parents should have kept their mouth shut and never reported it at all, if they are so sure that he would never do it again, because once it became public, it is up for scrutiny. Josh's sisters weren't willing participants, he himself said he did it why they were asleep. If we hadn't known about it, we certainly couldn't talk about it.

Again it is all a matter of proportion. And also a matter of just plain old common sense sometimes.

My concern is for his children and any other child that he may have access, to. You don't really know for a fact that he's cured or has just gotten clever at hiding it. And, it could be worse than what we think, because in reality, we don't really know what all went on....just what he admitted.

And it amazes me, that most of the people that are ready to call Bill Clinton a pedophile when his inappropriate behavior was with consenting adults are now looking at this as if it is nothing. They sure didn't mind making a scandal over something that was just "inappropriate" and not really criminal, but now, this young man's criminal behavior is being deemed as just "inappropriate".

 

[Linkiloo]

Why is it so hard to understand that there is a huge difference between sexual experimentation with kids of similar age and between a teen and a five year old?

That isn't embarassing or harassment - it is a crime.

I just don't get where Foxfyre is coming from.

This has zero to do with politics or religion. It has to do with law.

 

[Foxfyre]

Fox is coming from a position of common sense instead of one of judgment and willingness to personally destroy somebody with no evidence of any kind that the person is a danger to himself or others or that he/she has offended anybody in the last 12 years.

 

[Mertex]

The only reason conservatives are defending Josh Duggar has more to do with politics than anything else. Most consrvatives were flabbergasted by Clinton's indiscretion, a grown man with an adult woman having consensual sex, and raised eyebrows about the whole affair, but now, when it comes to Josh Duggar molesting his sisters and others, all of a sudden they become very accepting and willing to call his criminal behavior just simply "inappropriate". Admitting that Josh's behavior was criminal might just paint a dismal picture on the 2016 Republican candidates who posed with Josh to show how down they are with the religious right, especially now that Josh Duggar's ugly secret has been exposed and conservatives will do anything to make this ugly side of Josh Duggar seem like just inappropriate behavior of a child.


Blogger Tbogg at Raw Story reminds us of the Duggars' standing in this realm with a series of pictures of Josh Duggar posing with Republican politicians. Jeb Bush, Bobby Jindal, Rick Perry, Scott Walker, Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum, Ted Cruz: Posing for a picture with this guy is apparently a requirement to run in a Republican primary. Some of the more far-right Republicans used the Duggars to signal how down they are with the religious right. Rick Santorum, in particular, loved the clan and put them front and center in his campaign efforts.
The Duggars were always creepy. So why did so many Republicans love them anyway

 

[Linkiloo]

Well Mertex and Foxfyre, as I am not American and don't have a horse in the race so to speak, I don't care for the political angle. Crimes are crimes. When it happended it should have been reported to the police and not a highway patrolman and friend of the family who was a pedo. We do not know what has happened in the last 12 years Foyfyre precicely because it wasn't reported and there was no follow up. That is the whole point.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

I guess it isn't possible to keep a thread like this on topic.

 

[Mertex]

I guess it isn't possible to keep a thread like this on topic.

I think it is very much on topic.......

 

[Linkiloo]

Isn't the topic whether forgiveness trumps the law?

 

[Foxfyre]

Well Mertex and Foxfyre, as I am not American and don't have a horse in the race so to speak, I don't care for the political angle. Crimes are crimes. When it happended it should have been reported to the police and not a highway patrolman and friend of the family who was a pedo. We do not know what has happened in the last 12 years Foyfyre precicely because it wasn't reported and there was no follow up. That is the whole point.

The offenses were reported to the police and there was an investigation. The 'victims', who didn't feel all that victimized, were solemnly assured their testimony would never be made public. The only reason the victims came forward now to tell their story is because the police report was vindictively and mean spiritedly made public in a most cruel manner. And now the victims, who had long put this behind them and have long forgiven their brother, are being victimized again by those who get their jollies from demonizing people in cases like this. I personally believe it is mostly because Josh Duggar is a conservative evangelical Christian that the attack dogs are gleefully attempting to rip him apart and in the process are hurting many other people. You don't see them attacking as passionately or with such conviction any of their own.

What Josh Duggar did was very wrong which he confessed and acknowledged. None of his victims were materially harmed and there apparently is no on going trauma from it. There is zero evidence that he ever committed that kind of particular sin in the 12 years since it occurred. It is wrong to dredge it up now for sport and purient vindictiveness. His victims have forgiven him and have moved on. We all should do the same until he gives anybody any reason to believe he is a danger to himself or others and stop victimizing the victims which is what we are mostly doing.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Isn't the topic whether forgiveness trumps the law?

No. Forgiveness has to do with the eternal consequences of sin, which Jesus Christ paid for with his life on the cross. The temporal consequences we still must pay. If we overeat, we get fat. If we commit a crime, we go to jail. Even the death penalty is a grave reminder that some offenses are serious and the punishment severe. But in Christ is the hope of eternal life, to stand before the Lord someday unsullied, covered by the precious blood of Christ.

Forgiveness does not do away with the cost for the things we do that cause lasting damage. Josh Duggar well understands the damage he caused cannot be undone. We can wound people, even destroy their lives, and it can't be taken back. Even a murderer, though forgiven, has taken a life and has to live with that.

And as you can imagine, a balance of plenary punishment carries over after death for many people destined for heaven. That's where Purgatory comes in, the balancing of justice that MUST occur before we are prepared for heaven.

As you see, forgiveness doesn't get us off the hook. We still pay the price. But in the end, all who ask for forgiveness shall be saved.

 

[Mertex]

Well Mertex and Foxfyre, as I am not American and don't have a horse in the race so to speak, I don't care for the political angle. Crimes are crimes. When it happended it should have been reported to the police and not a highway patrolman and friend of the family who was a pedo. We do not know what has happened in the last 12 years Foyfyre precicely because it wasn't reported and there was no follow up. That is the whole point.

The offenses were reported to the police and there was an investigation.

No, as a matter of fact, the policeman that was called claims now that the parents lied.....said it only happened once and that the touching was over the clothes...so he didn't think it was a big deal. He claims that if he knew then what he knows now that he would have immediately turned it over to the proper authorities.

The 'victims', who didn't feel all that victimized, were solemnly assured their testimony would never be made public. The only reason the victims came forward now to tell their story is because the police report was vindictively and mean spiritedly made public in a most cruel manner. And now the victims, who had long put this behind them and have long forgiven their brother, are being victimized again by those who get their jollies from demonizing people in cases like this. I personally believe it is mostly because Josh Duggar is a conservative evangelical Christian that the attack dogs are gleefully attempting to rip him apart and in the process are hurting many other people. You don't see them attacking as passionately or with such conviction any of their own.

The sisters may have been coerced by the "protective" parents to keep their mouths shut and pretend it is not a big deal. You forget that there was someone besides the sisters that was molested....and she is finally doing something about it. The statute of limitations doesn't apply to her because the statute, according to the article, only applies from the the the victim starts experiencing the effects of the crime.

What Josh Duggar did was very wrong which he confessed and acknowledged. None of his victims were materially harmed and there apparently is no on going trauma from it. There is zero evidence that he ever committed that kind of particular sin in the 12 years since it occurred. It is wrong to dredge it up now for sport and purient vindictiveness. His victims have forgiven him and have moved on. We all should do the same until he gives anybody any reason to believe he is a danger to himself or others and stop victimizing the victims which is what we are mostly doing.

Again, you don't know that they were not traumatized. That is what the sisters may be claiming, but we really don't know if they are just suppressing. At least the babysitter is not keeping her mouth shut and we may finally see some justice done here. It's a mystery why conservatives made such a big deal over Paula Jones' accusation of Bill Clinton, when she was a grown woman and was readily glad to settle for money and drop the whole thing, and they continue to bring it up but don't give a damn about the innocent children that this young man violated and may continue to violate. Amazing.

Report Non-Family Molestation Victim to Sue Josh Duggar

 

[Vandalshandle]

I was wondering when we would hear from the babysitter. Everyone defending Josh chooses to forget that she exists.

 

[Foxfyre]

I was wondering when we would hear from the babysitter. Everyone defending Josh chooses to forget that she exists.

I have not seen a single soul defend Josh Duggar or what he did. I'm pretty sure a close review of the thread would show that nobody has. I am seeing a lot of people who refuse to consider the rights and feelings of the victims they are revictimizing with all this.

Some of us choose not to entertain ourselves by digging up 12-year-old history and revictimizing a lot of people who don't deserve that, most especially when absolutely nothing will be accomplished by doing it other than hurting a lot of people.

 

[Mertex]

I have not seen a single soul defend Josh Duggar or what he did.

Someone needs to read their posts again.......claiming that we should ignore this crime because it happened a long time ago, without proof that Josh Duggar has actually been vindicated by all victims is Defending Josh Duggar.

 

[Foxfyre]

I have not seen a single soul defend Josh Duggar or what he did.

Someone needs to read their posts again.......claiming that we should ignore this crime because it happened a long time ago, without proof that Josh Duggar has actually been vindicated by all victims is Defending Josh Duggar.

If there are such posts, I am sure you can post the post numbers. Selective reading and interpretation is not an honest portrayal of what anybody has said. For instance I am pretty darn sure nobody has said that Josh Duggar has been vindicated by any victims, let alone all. I certainly have not said that; in fact have pretty effectively said the polar opposite of that. Making a little effort to represent what people actually said instead of rewriting it into a straw man would great strengthen the argument.

 

[Mertex]

I have not seen a single soul defend Josh Duggar or what he did.

Someone needs to read their posts again.......claiming that we should ignore this crime because it happened a long time ago, without proof that Josh Duggar has actually been vindicated by all victims is Defending Josh Duggar.

If there are such posts, I am sure you can post the post numbers. Selective reading and interpretation is not an honest portrayal of what anybody has said. For instance I am pretty darn sure nobody has said that Josh Duggar has been vindicated by any victims, let alone all. I certainly have not said that; in fact have pretty effectively said the polar opposite of that. Making a little effort to represent what people actually said instead of rewriting it into a straw man would great strengthen the argument.

I'm not going to go through all your posts....but it is clear that you have insinuated that because it happened so long ago (12 years) that we should not bring it up....and you also claimed that all the victims have moved on, but apparently the babysitter, who has now filed a suit against him, hasn't, and for that reason alone, he should be held accountable.

You claim that "demanding that one person bear the most severe penalty of law but give those we like pretty much a pass" but that is exactly what conservatives are doing....you certainly did not give Bill Clinton a pass, most conservatives still bring up his indiscretion and call him a pedophile, yet he was never convicted, but you are willing to give Josh Duggar a pass when he has never even been called to account for what he did. You also have no proof that what Josh Duggar did caused no lasting harm. Just because his sisters are willing to hush up about it, doesn't mean that they are not suffering, and certainly the baby sitter may be.

Also, since when is it up to different individuals to search our own hearts for what is appropriate in any given case? A sexual crime is a crime, and there are punishments that go along with that crime, and it is up to a jury to decide what is appropriate, not those who happen to know him or like him.

Did you demand the same for Barney Frank? For Bill Clinton? For Gerry Studds? For Ted Kennedy and/or his nephew who he defended? Etc. etc. etc. Once we get on the slippery slope of demanding that one person bear the most severe penalty of law but give those we like pretty much a pass, it all becomes quite murky and the lines of justice become very blurred.

I think each of us has to search our own heart for what is appropriate in any given case. It seems to me that Josh Duggar has suffered huge public embarrassment and significant consequence for his past sins. If his sisters can forgive him and assure us that all is well, what is it to the rest of us to allow him to get on with his life? What purpose is served by locking up a repentent adult because of something stupid he did in his youth that caused no lasting harm?

I think each of us has to search our own heart for what is appropriate in any given case. It seems to me that Josh Duggar has suffered huge public embarrassment and significant consequence for his past sins. If his sisters can forgive him and assure us that all is well, what is it to the rest of us to allow him to get on with his life? What purpose is served by locking up a repentent adult because of something stupid he did in his youth?

I don't remember a lot of RWnut recommendations of counseling, understanding, and forgiveness for Bill Clinton having an affair with a consenting adult.

So that makes quid pro quo honorable? If we use the 'they did it first' or 'they do it too' as legitimate argument for attacking people, it is no wonder this is an increasingly sorry world we live in.

Well in keeping with Jesus admonition to "Judge not lest we be judged also", I don't know what is in the heart and mind of the scoffers. I will judge their actions as a destructive, mean spirited, hateful dynamic, but it has not been given to me to judge the people or know what evil prompts their behavior.

I just know there's an awful lot of it going around and that our common lives together suffers because of it.

when you scoff at his scoffers is it not destructive, mean spirited, hateful, or evil?

I don't scoff at the scoffers. But I have my own perceptions of right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust, and I think we are commanded to judge the behavior of everybody including ourselves.

But without evidence that Josh Duggar is a danger to himself or anybody else, to drag all these people through the mud 12 years later for no better reason than it can be done and it is a slow news week is just wrong.

"Without evidence" - because he picks on children that don't have a voice? And there is a reason, to prevent another child from being abused. Since you yourself claim that we "don't know" whether Josh is a danger to others, wouldn't it be in the best interest of children (especially his) that it be determined whether or not he is still a predator?

Isn't that for those involved in the situation to determine though?

Well yes, I haven't sent any e-mails or demanded my Congressman do something.

There is zero evidence that there have been any further incidents since Josh fessed up his sin.

There is zero evidence because no one has looked into it or because they have done an investigation and found none of his children or others having been offended?

We don't know what psychological evaluations or background checks there have been, but in most organizations involving children these days, those are pretty comprehensive. And yes, some pervs and serial offenders still get through the background checks.

Yes, when it is reported and DHS is involved, which I believe they are now and are currently investigating.

But it is not for us who are not there, who don't know, who can't know what has been done or what the situation is to judge who and what Josh Duggar is now, 12 years after his offenses as a 14-15 year old kid. If everybody who ever did anything sexually inappropriate as a curious kid is to be forever condemned, there won't be a hell of a lot of us who aren't condemned.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I never did anything sexually inappropriate when I was 14, 15, 16, 17, or ever. We're talking criminal action here.....I really don't believe that too many people would be condemned for something like that. But I don't see anything wrong with people expressing their opinions and demanding an investigation, why should Josh be given a pass?

Well good for you that you never did anything inappropriate. I doubt many people can say that. I had my own experiences with the neighborhood boys around that age and while extremely annoying and sometimes embarrassing it certainly did not traumatize me. Nor do I believe any of those boys, or a couple of girls who were sexually aggressive, grew up to be perverts or molesters or anything other than decent family men or women and good citizens. Certainly it would never have occurred to me to report them 12 years after the fact. And I'm pretty sure their parents to this day have no clue what they were doing back then. But could I and some of the other girls make their lives miserable by outing them now in the always-willing-for-a-good-scandal media? Sure we could. And it would be cruel and wrong to do so.

Again it is all a matter of proportion. And also a matter of just plain old common sense sometimes.

Well Mertex and Foxfyre, as I am not American and don't have a horse in the race so to speak, I don't care for the political angle. Crimes are crimes. When it happended it should have been reported to the police and not a highway patrolman and friend of the family who was a pedo. We do not know what has happened in the last 12 years Foyfyre precicely because it wasn't reported and there was no follow up. That is the whole point.

The offenses were reported to the police and there was an investigation. The 'victims', who didn't feel all that victimized, were solemnly assured their testimony would never be made public. The only reason the victims came forward now to tell their story is because the police report was vindictively and mean spiritedly made public in a most cruel manner. And now the victims, who had long put this behind them and have long forgiven their brother, are being victimized again by those who get their jollies from demonizing people in cases like this. I personally believe it is mostly because Josh Duggar is a conservative evangelical Christian that the attack dogs are gleefully attempting to rip him apart and in the process are hurting many other people. You don't see them attacking as passionately or with such conviction any of their own.

What Josh Duggar did was very wrong which he confessed and acknowledged. None of his victims were materially harmed and there apparently is no on going trauma from it. There is zero evidence that he ever committed that kind of particular sin in the 12 years since it occurred. It is wrong to dredge it up now for sport and purient vindictiveness. His victims have forgiven him and have moved on. We all should do the same until he gives anybody any reason to believe he is a danger to himself or others and stop victimizing the victims which is what we are mostly doing.

 

[Foxfyre]

I have not seen a single soul defend Josh Duggar or what he did.

Someone needs to read their posts again.......claiming that we should ignore this crime because it happened a long time ago, without proof that Josh Duggar has actually been vindicated by all victims is Defending Josh Duggar.

If there are such posts, I am sure you can post the post numbers. Selective reading and interpretation is not an honest portrayal of what anybody has said. For instance I am pretty darn sure nobody has said that Josh Duggar has been vindicated by any victims, let alone all. I certainly have not said that; in fact have pretty effectively said the polar opposite of that. Making a little effort to represent what people actually said instead of rewriting it into a straw man would great strengthen the argument.

I'm not going to go through all your posts....but it is clear that you have insinuated that because it happened so long ago (12 years) that we should not bring it up....and you also claimed that all the victims have moved on, but apparently the babysitter, who has now filed a suit against him, hasn't, and for that reason alone, he should be held accountable.

You claim that "demanding that one person bear the most severe penalty of law but give those we like pretty much a pass" but that is exactly what conservatives are doing....you certainly did not give Bill Clinton a pass, most conservatives still bring up his indiscretion and call him a pedophile, yet he was never convicted, but you are willing to give Josh Duggar a pass when he has never even been called to account for what he did. You also have no proof that what Josh Duggar did caused no lasting harm. Just because his sisters are willing to hush up about it, doesn't mean that they are not suffering, and certainly the baby sitter may be.

Also, since when is it up to different individuals to search our own hearts for what is appropriate in any given case? A sexual crime is a crime, and there are punishments that go along with that crime, and it is up to a jury to decide what is appropriate, not those who happen to know him or like him.

Did you demand the same for Barney Frank? For Bill Clinton? For Gerry Studds? For Ted Kennedy and/or his nephew who he defended? Etc. etc. etc. Once we get on the slippery slope of demanding that one person bear the most severe penalty of law but give those we like pretty much a pass, it all becomes quite murky and the lines of justice become very blurred.

I think each of us has to search our own heart for what is appropriate in any given case. It seems to me that Josh Duggar has suffered huge public embarrassment and significant consequence for his past sins. If his sisters can forgive him and assure us that all is well, what is it to the rest of us to allow him to get on with his life? What purpose is served by locking up a repentent adult because of something stupid he did in his youth that caused no lasting harm?

I think each of us has to search our own heart for what is appropriate in any given case. It seems to me that Josh Duggar has suffered huge public embarrassment and significant consequence for his past sins. If his sisters can forgive him and assure us that all is well, what is it to the rest of us to allow him to get on with his life? What purpose is served by locking up a repentent adult because of something stupid he did in his youth?

I don't remember a lot of RWnut recommendations of counseling, understanding, and forgiveness for Bill Clinton having an affair with a consenting adult.

So that makes quid pro quo honorable? If we use the 'they did it first' or 'they do it too' as legitimate argument for attacking people, it is no wonder this is an increasingly sorry world we live in.

Well in keeping with Jesus admonition to "Judge not lest we be judged also", I don't know what is in the heart and mind of the scoffers. I will judge their actions as a destructive, mean spirited, hateful dynamic, but it has not been given to me to judge the people or know what evil prompts their behavior.

I just know there's an awful lot of it going around and that our common lives together suffers because of it.

when you scoff at his scoffers is it not destructive, mean spirited, hateful, or evil?

I don't scoff at the scoffers. But I have my own perceptions of right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust, and I think we are commanded to judge the behavior of everybody including ourselves.

But without evidence that Josh Duggar is a danger to himself or anybody else, to drag all these people through the mud 12 years later for no better reason than it can be done and it is a slow news week is just wrong.

"Without evidence" - because he picks on children that don't have a voice? And there is a reason, to prevent another child from being abused. Since you yourself claim that we "don't know" whether Josh is a danger to others, wouldn't it be in the best interest of children (especially his) that it be determined whether or not he is still a predator?

Isn't that for those involved in the situation to determine though?

Well yes, I haven't sent any e-mails or demanded my Congressman do something.

There is zero evidence that there have been any further incidents since Josh fessed up his sin.

There is zero evidence because no one has looked into it or because they have done an investigation and found none of his children or others having been offended?

We don't know what psychological evaluations or background checks there have been, but in most organizations involving children these days, those are pretty comprehensive. And yes, some pervs and serial offenders still get through the background checks.

Yes, when it is reported and DHS is involved, which I believe they are now and are currently investigating.

But it is not for us who are not there, who don't know, who can't know what has been done or what the situation is to judge who and what Josh Duggar is now, 12 years after his offenses as a 14-15 year old kid. If everybody who ever did anything sexually inappropriate as a curious kid is to be forever condemned, there won't be a hell of a lot of us who aren't condemned.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I never did anything sexually inappropriate when I was 14, 15, 16, 17, or ever. We're talking criminal action here.....I really don't believe that too many people would be condemned for something like that. But I don't see anything wrong with people expressing their opinions and demanding an investigation, why should Josh be given a pass?

Well good for you that you never did anything inappropriate. I doubt many people can say that. I had my own experiences with the neighborhood boys around that age and while extremely annoying and sometimes embarrassing it certainly did not traumatize me. Nor do I believe any of those boys, or a couple of girls who were sexually aggressive, grew up to be perverts or molesters or anything other than decent family men or women and good citizens. Certainly it would never have occurred to me to report them 12 years after the fact. And I'm pretty sure their parents to this day have no clue what they were doing back then. But could I and some of the other girls make their lives miserable by outing them now in the always-willing-for-a-good-scandal media? Sure we could. And it would be cruel and wrong to do so.

Again it is all a matter of proportion. And also a matter of just plain old common sense sometimes.

Well Mertex and Foxfyre, as I am not American and don't have a horse in the race so to speak, I don't care for the political angle. Crimes are crimes. When it happended it should have been reported to the police and not a highway patrolman and friend of the family who was a pedo. We do not know what has happened in the last 12 years Foyfyre precicely because it wasn't reported and there was no follow up. That is the whole point.

The offenses were reported to the police and there was an investigation. The 'victims', who didn't feel all that victimized, were solemnly assured their testimony would never be made public. The only reason the victims came forward now to tell their story is because the police report was vindictively and mean spiritedly made public in a most cruel manner. And now the victims, who had long put this behind them and have long forgiven their brother, are being victimized again by those who get their jollies from demonizing people in cases like this. I personally believe it is mostly because Josh Duggar is a conservative evangelical Christian that the attack dogs are gleefully attempting to rip him apart and in the process are hurting many other people. You don't see them attacking as passionately or with such conviction any of their own.

What Josh Duggar did was very wrong which he confessed and acknowledged. None of his victims were materially harmed and there apparently is no on going trauma from it. There is zero evidence that he ever committed that kind of particular sin in the 12 years since it occurred. It is wrong to dredge it up now for sport and purient vindictiveness. His victims have forgiven him and have moved on. We all should do the same until he gives anybody any reason to believe he is a danger to himself or others and stop victimizing the victims which is what we are mostly doing.

Oh yeah, can't let a good scandal go to waste can we. Especially if the focus of it is rich and famous and substantial money can be made. And there is already a lot of discussion about it out there. Would the baby sitter have filed suit without all the sensational publicity? If not, what were her damages really?

Maybe it's as bad as you seem to want it to be Mertex. I don't know. But I am pretty sure we wouldn't be having this discussion if Josh Duggar and his family weren't Christian, conservative, and rich.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I have not seen a single soul defend Josh Duggar or what he did.

Someone needs to read their posts again.......claiming that we should ignore this crime because it happened a long time ago, without proof that Josh Duggar has actually been vindicated by all victims is Defending Josh Duggar.

If there are such posts, I am sure you can post the post numbers. Selective reading and interpretation is not an honest portrayal of what anybody has said. For instance I am pretty darn sure nobody has said that Josh Duggar has been vindicated by any victims, let alone all. I certainly have not said that; in fact have pretty effectively said the polar opposite of that. Making a little effort to represent what people actually said instead of rewriting it into a straw man would great strengthen the argument.

I'm not going to go through all your posts....but it is clear that you have insinuated that because it happened so long ago (12 years) that we should not bring it up....and you also claimed that all the victims have moved on, but apparently the babysitter, who has now filed a suit against him, hasn't, and for that reason alone, he should be held accountable.

You claim that "demanding that one person bear the most severe penalty of law but give those we like pretty much a pass" but that is exactly what conservatives are doing....you certainly did not give Bill Clinton a pass, most conservatives still bring up his indiscretion and call him a pedophile, yet he was never convicted, but you are willing to give Josh Duggar a pass when he has never even been called to account for what he did. You also have no proof that what Josh Duggar did caused no lasting harm. Just because his sisters are willing to hush up about it, doesn't mean that they are not suffering, and certainly the baby sitter may be.

Also, since when is it up to different individuals to search our own hearts for what is appropriate in any given case? A sexual crime is a crime, and there are punishments that go along with that crime, and it is up to a jury to decide what is appropriate, not those who happen to know him or like him.

Did you demand the same for Barney Frank? For Bill Clinton? For Gerry Studds? For Ted Kennedy and/or his nephew who he defended? Etc. etc. etc. Once we get on the slippery slope of demanding that one person bear the most severe penalty of law but give those we like pretty much a pass, it all becomes quite murky and the lines of justice become very blurred.

I think each of us has to search our own heart for what is appropriate in any given case. It seems to me that Josh Duggar has suffered huge public embarrassment and significant consequence for his past sins. If his sisters can forgive him and assure us that all is well, what is it to the rest of us to allow him to get on with his life? What purpose is served by locking up a repentent adult because of something stupid he did in his youth that caused no lasting harm?

I think each of us has to search our own heart for what is appropriate in any given case. It seems to me that Josh Duggar has suffered huge public embarrassment and significant consequence for his past sins. If his sisters can forgive him and assure us that all is well, what is it to the rest of us to allow him to get on with his life? What purpose is served by locking up a repentent adult because of something stupid he did in his youth?

I don't remember a lot of RWnut recommendations of counseling, understanding, and forgiveness for Bill Clinton having an affair with a consenting adult.

So that makes quid pro quo honorable? If we use the 'they did it first' or 'they do it too' as legitimate argument for attacking people, it is no wonder this is an increasingly sorry world we live in.

Well in keeping with Jesus admonition to "Judge not lest we be judged also", I don't know what is in the heart and mind of the scoffers. I will judge their actions as a destructive, mean spirited, hateful dynamic, but it has not been given to me to judge the people or know what evil prompts their behavior.

I just know there's an awful lot of it going around and that our common lives together suffers because of it.

when you scoff at his scoffers is it not destructive, mean spirited, hateful, or evil?

I don't scoff at the scoffers. But I have my own perceptions of right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust, and I think we are commanded to judge the behavior of everybody including ourselves.

"Without evidence" - because he picks on children that don't have a voice? And there is a reason, to prevent another child from being abused. Since you yourself claim that we "don't know" whether Josh is a danger to others, wouldn't it be in the best interest of children (especially his) that it be determined whether or not he is still a predator?

Isn't that for those involved in the situation to determine though?

Well yes, I haven't sent any e-mails or demanded my Congressman do something.

There is zero evidence that there have been any further incidents since Josh fessed up his sin.

There is zero evidence because no one has looked into it or because they have done an investigation and found none of his children or others having been offended?

We don't know what psychological evaluations or background checks there have been, but in most organizations involving children these days, those are pretty comprehensive. And yes, some pervs and serial offenders still get through the background checks.

Yes, when it is reported and DHS is involved, which I believe they are now and are currently investigating.

But it is not for us who are not there, who don't know, who can't know what has been done or what the situation is to judge who and what Josh Duggar is now, 12 years after his offenses as a 14-15 year old kid. If everybody who ever did anything sexually inappropriate as a curious kid is to be forever condemned, there won't be a hell of a lot of us who aren't condemned.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I never did anything sexually inappropriate when I was 14, 15, 16, 17, or ever. We're talking criminal action here.....I really don't believe that too many people would be condemned for something like that. But I don't see anything wrong with people expressing their opinions and demanding an investigation, why should Josh be given a pass?

Well good for you that you never did anything inappropriate. I doubt many people can say that. I had my own experiences with the neighborhood boys around that age and while extremely annoying and sometimes embarrassing it certainly did not traumatize me. Nor do I believe any of those boys, or a couple of girls who were sexually aggressive, grew up to be perverts or molesters or anything other than decent family men or women and good citizens. Certainly it would never have occurred to me to report them 12 years after the fact. And I'm pretty sure their parents to this day have no clue what they were doing back then. But could I and some of the other girls make their lives miserable by outing them now in the always-willing-for-a-good-scandal media? Sure we could. And it would be cruel and wrong to do so.

Again it is all a matter of proportion. And also a matter of just plain old common sense sometimes.

Well Mertex and Foxfyre, as I am not American and don't have a horse in the race so to speak, I don't care for the political angle. Crimes are crimes. When it happended it should have been reported to the police and not a highway patrolman and friend of the family who was a pedo. We do not know what has happened in the last 12 years Foyfyre precicely because it wasn't reported and there was no follow up. That is the whole point.

The offenses were reported to the police and there was an investigation. The 'victims', who didn't feel all that victimized, were solemnly assured their testimony would never be made public. The only reason the victims came forward now to tell their story is because the police report was vindictively and mean spiritedly made public in a most cruel manner. And now the victims, who had long put this behind them and have long forgiven their brother, are being victimized again by those who get their jollies from demonizing people in cases like this. I personally believe it is mostly because Josh Duggar is a conservative evangelical Christian that the attack dogs are gleefully attempting to rip him apart and in the process are hurting many other people. You don't see them attacking as passionately or with such conviction any of their own.

What Josh Duggar did was very wrong which he confessed and acknowledged. None of his victims were materially harmed and there apparently is no on going trauma from it. There is zero evidence that he ever committed that kind of particular sin in the 12 years since it occurred. It is wrong to dredge it up now for sport and purient vindictiveness. His victims have forgiven him and have moved on. We all should do the same until he gives anybody any reason to believe he is a danger to himself or others and stop victimizing the victims which is what we are mostly doing.

Oh yeah, can't let a good scandal go to waste can we. Especially if the focus of it is rich and famous and substantial money can be made. And there is already a lot of discussion about it out there. Would the baby sitter have filed suit without all the sensational publicity? If not, what were her damages really?

Maybe it's as bad as you seem to want it to be Mertex. I don't know. But I am pretty sure we wouldn't be having this discussion if Josh Duggar and his family weren't Christian, conservative, and rich.

I am ABSOLUTELY sure that this conversation would not be happening is Josh were an atheist. Conservatives would be the first to hang him from the nearest live oak tree.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Why should I feel shame for doing what Christ does? He is our advocate with the Father. He loves us despite us being sinners who often do horrible things. He defends us to the point that He bled for us.

Are you a Christian and not realizing that? He died for you, for me, and even for pedohiles. He died for everyone. Every single one of us.

If he was willing to die to give even the most vile of us a chance to change, who am I to not live to do the same?

No. He died for those that had already changed and received forgiveness. You probably need to reread that part.

Those who refuse forgiveness and reject Jesus Christ are rejecting the terms God has laid down for redemption. Therein they remain condemned in their sins and there is no pardon.

My daughter was molested by a man. I don't forgive him and he has never asked for forgiveness. So I don't need to do what is not requested. In fact years later he tried to contact my daughter after she was an adult. As far as I'm concerned he is not repented and is a perp. If he died tomorrow, I'd be happy. The only man I have ever felt that way about.

I am very sorry that your daughter suffered such a thing. There isn't anything worse than being molested as a child. It is the most destructive thing anyone could ever do to a child. I'm a survivor. It has taken many years to overcome some things and that was even after I accepted Christ, Georgio. Many years.

There is no question that you truly love your daughter and I know that she must be very grateful to have a father who cares so much about her well being and safety. I knew a man once who couldn't forgive someone who had harmed him greatly. The person never asked forgiveness. He was diagnosed with cancer and we talked on the phone about his salvation and he prayed with me and I thought it was settled. Later on the Holy Spirit checked me that something was undone. He had unforgiveness in his heart.

So I called him back and I asked him if he had any unforgiveness towards someone and he said yes! And he told me who it was and what had happened. I asked him would you be willing to tell God - I cannot forgive this person but I willing to ask you to forgive them through me. He said, Yes! The moment he said that the burden of that pain lifted off of him and he was free of it. I told him, God is writing your name in the Lamb's book of life right now. He said, I know! I see his hand writing my name on a granite tablet! He was so happy! God actually gave him a vision of Him recording his name in the Lamb's book of life. I have never seen that happen to anyone else in my life before but it happened to him and I've never seen a man more at peace (that I can recall!) - even to the day he went home to be with the LORD.

I am going to be praying each morning for the LORD to watch over and protect you and your loved ones and that He will give you confirmation of what I've told you so that you will know it isn't just some person telling you this.

You are very precious to Jesus and I have no doubt in my heart that you are most sincere. It's rare to see and you are blessing to me today. Thank you, Georgio.

p.s. Although I tell you that I am healed of my childhood - I still cry when I read threads like this and read certain things that bring back that sorrow. It's not all roses, Georgio. I just have to be honest about that.

I'm a grandmother and I still weep over what happened to me as a child when I am reminded of it by threads like these. I never think of it unless someone brings it up by way of a discussion about child abuse. Well, I have to go now. Have a wonderful day, Georgio.

The effect that is has had on my daughters life is devastating, she went to self medicate with the pain, she has a low self esteem and I see the promise of a great life turning to more pain. The guy that molested her is out of prison, and yet his effects on my daughter have continued on.

Thank you for your thoughts and prayers, I have issue with Duggar and his parents, in my opinion, minimizing his actions. It tells me that they haven't accepted the gravity of the whole situation and the possible effects it will have on the daughters.

My daughter is coming around to admitting she needs some help other than drugs, I am hoping she can beat it. It is nice to see my daughter have hope, she is truly an amazing girl.

Jeremiah, we may disagree on things but I commend you on surviving the abuse suffered as a child and I am glad you can forgive. I don't know if I'm there yet.

Papageorgio

I'm so very sorry about your daughter. I was abused and molested throughout my childhood and I know it leaves scars that cannot always be seen but are always there.

Society does not look on child molestation as a serious crime. Molesters walk away but their victims get a life sentence.

No, I'm not "there" yet either.