Jesus was a liberal? & Thou Shalt Not Kill

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Spirit_Soul
You have an ability that comes with responsibility. We have the power to have some morality. More over, we are omnivorous, civilized and can think and realize what we are doing is either right or wrong.

The animals cannot, the ones that eat meat are called carnivorous, they are made to eat meat, they cannot help it and do not have the capability to understand.

You just hit on it. Animals do not have the ability to understand right vs. wrong. They have no idea what they should or shouldn't eat. They have no concept of rights, so they cannot assert said rights, verbally or forcefully, and so they do not have the same kind of rights that humans have.

We do have the power to have morality - in fact, the power to recognize the morality that has been given to us, not by some amorphous ether, but from God Himself. The moral law that we receive from God is superior to whatever morals we think up for ourselves, because God is superior to us. Therefore, if we are following God's moral law, then we are morally in the right.
And what does God's law say about what we should or shouldn't eat? In the Gospels, Jesus says that "What a man eats does not cause him to be clean or unclean, but what comes out of a man's heart makes him clean or unclean." So I will not worry about what I eat or don't eat, because God has allowed me to eat whatever I choose.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Janeeng, Read my posts completely before responding to them please. If you truly don't like the being to die for your meal, then don't choose to eat it.

Refraining from eating will save a life, if I eat them then I too am an acomplise in killing those animals.

If we use a little intelligence that has been gifted to us (evolutionary process or God whatever), we can increase the scope of our thought.

Janeeng, I understand that you do not like to eat plants, so you eat meat, but in doing so the meat industry makes money thus killing more cows, pigs, goats whatever they may be. The point that "You don't want to see them die" but "you like the meat" just makes it look so bad, because where the heck do you get the meat from? Meat is not milk, meat is muscle, meat is not something the cow gives you as a gift, it is something the cow needs it but the meat industry takes it away for your meal and the cow helplessly sacrifices itself for you.

If you say, "every one does it, every one kills them and every one is doing these things, so it is normal...." does not justify the morality of the action. The fact that every one does it, does not make the wrong action into a right one. Morality is not just the result of communal interaction, but also your own thought.

If the thought is stopped , never given a chance, then that results in brainwashing which is now happening in the world.

Every one thinks "what an idiot, he/she thinks that animals need to have rights!"

Just like this was statement was prominent in 18th century: "What an idiot, he/she thinks that blacks have rights, they are not property and actual human beings HA! what a dumb little idiot"

THere are some who have given up meat eating, They are called vegetarians and some of them even live up to the age of 118 , so don't tell me "it is not healthy", research shows that vegetarians are more healtheir than nonvegetarians.

Thank you.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
You just hit on it. Animals do not have the ability to understand right vs. wrong. They have no idea what they should or shouldn't eat. They have no concept of rights, so they cannot assert said rights, verbally or forcefully, and so they do not have the same kind of rights that humans have.

We do have the power to have morality - in fact, the power to recognize the morality that has been given to us, not by some amorphous ether, but from God Himself. The moral law that we receive from God is superior to whatever morals we think up for ourselves, because God is superior to us. Therefore, if we are following God's moral law, then we are morally in the right.
And what does God's law say about what we should or shouldn't eat? In the Gospels, Jesus says that "What a man eats does not cause him to be clean or unclean, but what comes out of a man's heart makes him clean or unclean." So I will not worry about what I eat or don't eat, because God has allowed me to eat whatever I choose.

RIDICULOUS!!!!, WAKE UP!, are you trying to say that just because they do not think and their brain's are not developed , they don't feel any pain?

That is just so sick!, SO you support taking a mentally retarded person and stabbing him to death because he can't think as good as you?

Oh so that book says you can kill an animal that is screaming as you cut it mercilessly with a sharp knive and it is ok for you do it because a higher being has told you so?!!!!

If that is so, then you have no problem with 9/11 right? because a higher being has told the MUSLIM TERRORISTs, they can kill so many innocent people because they are not MUSLIMs oh yea!!!

YOu cannot argue with the MAN who sits on the CLOUD because HE IS SUPERIOR TO You, He just said "GO EAT THEM KILL THEM DO WHATEVER TORTURES YOU DO TO THEM, ITS OK BECAUSE I GAVE YOU A BIG BRAIN?"

YOU MAKE ME SICK!


Every animal has the right to LIVE. Who are you to destroy it?!

See for yourself : http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery/photos_dairy.htm

And you only care about yourself don't you,
"Gee, I don't want them to die, but I don't want to eat plants because they taste funny , oh well i guess I will eat you"

or

"hmm, lets see, I don't go to hell for this, so its ok I guess because you know "I" don't want to go to hell , there is no thought about giving them pain because it has pain, not me, I don't feel it so it just makes it so OKAy to support killing it"

Oh yes, now I clearly see why you also support so many wars and why you like the republicans JEFF. You are very happy with this aren't you?

You make me sick

 

[Aquarian]

In the beginning, there was nothing but rock, dust and gas. At some point, life appeared in it's various forms. The forms ate each other and became stronger. And so it continues...

Nature has made us humans omnivores as it offers the best chance for survival. Where carnivores cannot survive on plant matter, and herbivores cannot digest animal matter, we can be sustained by either lessening the chances of starvation. We have canine teeth for a reason.

As to the morality of eating meat, that is an ethical question that there is not at current a satisfactory answer to in my eyes. On the one hand it is part of the 'natural' order, on the other hand animals do feel pain and exhibit some signs of rudimentary consciousness (c'mon, you know when your cat is happy or sad, don't you? not that I mean to eat your cat, just an example of an animal that many people have contact with, I mean, when was the last time you pet a cow?). A friend and I were talking about this the other day and wondered aloud what it might be like to be the first self aware, intelligent cow to evolve:

Cow: "Dude, what are you doing down there, pullin on me danglies??"
Farmhand: "Holy shit a talking cow!!"
Cow:"and what happened to bessie? not seen her in weeks.."
Farmhand:"we ate her"
Cow: "you what??"

and so on...

Anyhoo... until such time as a species currently considered a food source evidences conciousness they shall most likely remain on the menu. And this is not necessarily bad.

one other note- Humans stuck in horrible situations will eat each other, creatures known to be intelligent, caring beings, in order to survive.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Originally posted by Aquarian

Cow: "Dude, what are you doing down there, pullin on me danglies??"
Farmhand: "Holy shit a talking cow!!"
Cow:"and what happened to bessie? not seen her in weeks.."
Farmhand:"we ate her"
Cow: "you what??"

and so on...

LOL , true, but the evolutionary theory which we take to be a fact is actually a theory. It is not proven. You cannot take it to be true.

Anyway, cows feel pain just like human beings. They too have nociceptors and other neuropeptide releasing cells... so they do feel pain.

The Farmers today don't really pull it themselves. They make cold , painful machines get the milk out of them and don't stop until the cow is totally run out of energy.

And these Godly people here have to come to their senses that God never tells them to do it , it is probably added by a lassie who was trying to justify his actions.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Spirit_Soul
RIDICULOUS!!!!, WAKE UP!, are you trying to say that just because they do not think and their brain's are not developed , they don't feel any pain?

I didn't say they don't feel pain. I'm sure they do. I'm saying that they have no concept of morality or of 'rights.'

That is just so sick!, SO you support taking a mentally retarded person and stabbing him to death because he can't think as good as you?

No, because it is immoral to murder people, regardless of their mental capacity.

Oh so that book says you can kill an animal that is screaming as you cut it mercilessly with a sharp knive and it is ok for you do it because a higher being has told you so?!!!!
If that is so, then you have no problem with 9/11 right? because a higher being has told the MUSLIM TERRORISTs, they can kill so many innocent people because they are not MUSLIMs oh yea!!!

Well let's see... most everyone I know cuts the animal meat after the animal is dead, so there is no screaming. Now I'm not an expert on slaughterhouses, but form what I've heard, they try to kill the cows/chickens/pigs/whatever as quickly as possible. I'm sure there's pain there; however, I fail to see how killing animals for food is immoral, whereas your example of 9/11 is extremely immoral because it involves the murder of human beings.

YOu cannot argue with the MAN who sits on the CLOUD because HE IS SUPERIOR TO You, He just said "GO EAT THEM KILL THEM DO WHATEVER TORTURES YOU DO TO THEM, ITS OK BECAUSE I GAVE YOU A BIG BRAIN?"

YOU MAKE ME SICK!

What God actually said was that He gave us all the plants and animals on Earth as food (ref. the end of the account of Noah and the Flood). So I feel free to eat any animal or plant for food.

Every animal has the right to LIVE. Who are you to destroy it?!
See for yourself : http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery/photos_dairy.htm
And you only care about yourself don't you,
"Gee, I don't want them to die, but I don't want to eat plants because they taste funny , oh well i guess I will eat you"
or
"hmm, lets see, I don't go to hell for this, so its ok I guess because you know "I" don't want to go to hell , there is no thought about giving them pain because it has pain, not me, I don't feel it so it just makes it so OKAy to support killing it"
Oh yes, now I clearly see why you also support so many wars and why you like the republicans JEFF. You are very happy with this aren't you?
You make me sick

Wow... such a bitter rant from someone I thought was so peaceful!
If every animal has the right to live, you'd better tell all the carnivores out there. And don't tell me that it's not their fault, they were made that way... yes, they were made that way - just as we were made omnivorous, and are able to eat both plant and meat. If God had only wanted us to eat plant material, He would have equipped us with a set of teeth that was made solely for plants, and he wouldn't have given us an appetite for meat!
As far as only caring for myself... I happen to care quite a lot about other people, thank you so much. If you knew me in real life, it would (hopefully) be evident in my life. I believe in rugged individualism, and I think that people should make their own ways in life, but that doesn't mean I am uncaring.
And as far as being happy about war... I am not happy at all about wars being necessary - I have lost two friends in the Iraqi war - but the fact is that, from time to time, diplomacy fails and war is indeed necessary.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

If you post your religious document then I will do mine :

The blessed lord said:
Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them.

Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them.

Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world.

The demoniac, taking shelter of insatiable lust, pride and false prestige, and being thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work, attracted by the impermanent.

The demoniac person thinks: "So much wealth do I have today, and I will gain more according to my schemes. So much is mine now, and it will increase in the future, more and more. He is my enemy, and I have killed him; and my other enemy will also be killed. I am the lord of everything. I am the enjoyer. I am perfect, powerful and happy. I am the richest man, surrounded by aristocratic relatives. There is none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall perform sacrifices, I shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice." In this way, such persons are deluded by ignorance.

There are three gates leading to this hell--lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul.

The man who has escaped these three gates of hell, O son of Kunti, performs acts conducive to self-realization and thus gradually attains the supreme destination.

One should understand what is duty and what is not duty by the regulations of the scriptures. Knowing such rules and regulations, one should act so that he may gradually be elevated.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Spirit_Soul
If you post your religious document then I will do mine :

So what exactly is this from? The Vega? The Koran?

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
So what exactly is this from? The Vega? The Koran?

Its not Vega, its Veda.

Veda in sanskrit means "Knowledge".

This is Bhagavad Gita "Song of the lord" , or the sum of all Vedas:

This is a conversation between "Krishna" or "Supreme Personality of the Godhead" or "God" and Arjuna , "Bhakth" or a "devotee" of the lord.

www.asitis.com

I got it from here. Chapter on Divine and Demonic tendencies.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Spirit_Soul
Its not Vega, its Veda.
Veda in sanskrit means "Knowledge".
This is Bhagavad Gita "Song of the lord" , or the sum of all Vedas:
This is a conversation between "Krishna" or "Supreme Personality of the Godhead" or "God" and Arjuna , "Bhakth" or a "devotee" of the lord.
www.asitis.com
I got it from here. Chapter on Divine and Demonic tendencies.

Sorry... it's been a while since I studied Eastern religion. And I'm not really familiar with the Veda.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
Sorry... it's been a while since I studied Eastern religion. And I'm not really familiar with the Veda.

It is alright, I am not attached to the correct spelling or pronounciation anyway.

(ooops didnt see your other post)

I apologize for the statements made by me earlier. I was enraged about how you justified your meat eating.


I am sorry that you have lost your friends in the war. I did not mean to say that you do not care about others, but why not care about every one because every one is the child of God. In other words, all the creatures or why can't we just use basic morality.

Sorry, I too lose self control some times

 

[jimnyc]

Mmmmmm.... Veal Parmigiana!

Thanks, farmers, job well done!

 

[eric]

It's funny how you feel so strongly towards animals yet in our discussions about abortion you did not show the same compassion for the unborn. So lets not lecture anyone.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

You read a book and take it for gospel, then come here and expect us to have the same beliefs as you, and you have the nerve to insult someone else's intelligence? LOL

Absolutely nothing! Sorry!

One is legal, one is not. If I could, I would, as I have plenty of "human" candidates that I feel deserve to die.

I'm eating a McDonald's cheeseburger right now, and I feel no pain! Do you lecture a dog when it eats a cat? Do you lecture a cat when it eats a mouse? Do you lecture a fish when it eats a small crab? If you don't, why not?

Do they taste like hamburger?

And I think people with beliefs such as yours need to be institutionalized.

Yes, and the truth is that cows will be eaten for eternity. Deal with it and stop your damn preaching!

As a matter of fact, I read many books and I think about many things, what I read and what I take as a Gospel has nothing to do with you.

I cannot repeat my posts all over again about why I don't lecture a fish before it eats a crab buddy , but I thought I would lecture you because you are may be a little more smarter than a fish or a crab ? what do you think?

The answer to your next question : Nah, I don't think so. I think you can try it and see, if you are so unattached to killing one and tasting it yourself.


Also about me being institutionalized, sorry, I won't be institutionalized because people actually take what I say very seriously in my life.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by Spirit_Soul
I am sorry that you have lost your friends in the war. I did not mean to say that you do not care about others, but why not care about every one because every one is the child of God. In other words, all the creatures or why can't we just use basic morality.

I'm going to jump in for a second...

Animals are 'not' 'children of God'. If you are equating animals with man, because God made them, you'd have to believe God made PLANTS too...Because something was made or created doesn't mean they equate.

There was a scientist in England who beleived that Carrots can talk...he said he had recordings of them SCREAMING as they were YANKED from the soil.

:-/

Where to draw the line?

Eat what you will - God Created man to kill and eat animals. And plants.

[edit] for the Record, Jeff is a GREAT guy...

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Spirit_Soul
I did not mean to say that you do not care about others, but why not care about every one because every one is the child of God. In other words, all the creatures or why can't we just use basic morality.

Every human is the child of God, yes. As Darin said, though, if animals are the children of God, then what about plants? And then what about the rest of creation - rocks, stars, clouds, etc.? I believe that basic morality, as outlined in the Bible, allows people to eat meat if they want to. It is very clear to me that you don't believe the same way.

 

[jimnyc]

As a matter of fact, I read many books and I think about many things, what I read and what I take as a Gospel has nothing to do with you.

It doesn't? Then why do you feel the need to lecture about it here? In case you haven't noticed, you aren't exactly changing anyones mind.

I cannot repeat my posts all over again about why I don't lecture a fish before it eats a crab buddy , but I thought I would lecture you because you are may be a little more smarter than a fish or a crab ? what do you think?

Again, do you think lecturing me at this point is going to accomplish anything? You have different beliefs than other people and so do I. If it makes you happy to not eat meat, more power to you! I think you are wrong for expecting people to follow in your footsteps, and rude for criticizing them for not doing so.
*****

Animals are 'not' 'children of God'. If you are equating animals with man, because God made them, you'd have to believe God made PLANTS too...Because something was made or created doesn't mean they equate.

Great point, dmp.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

The issue here is on how animals are brutally murdered to eat .


Plants donot have nociceptors, they don't get hurt, they come out of this earth to sustain life, all the eco system itself lives on plants, plants don't have feelings.

The point that I was making is clear, we are all guilty of something or the other in our lives. It is our ignorance that we quarrel on useless things.

Sorry jimnyc, even though I got on a mode of preaching that was not my intention. My intention was to prove something else and with other set of provoking comments such as "lets eat beef", "I am drinking slave cow milk" made me go on the path to explain the importance of certain mentalities, I apologize for any inconvenience.

sheesh, I am starting to take this forum seriously

 

[jimnyc]

Sorry jimnyc, even though I got on a mode of preaching that was not my intention.

Don't apologize, just don't lecture

People threw out flippant comments because you have previously shown you have a good sense of humor. But now you seem to have become enraged over what you believe in. It's very hard to 'debate' issues that are so important to you. No matter how badly you want people to see your side or agree with you, it rarely happens in a debate. The best you can do is offer your opinion/belief and hope people have a bit of understanding.

sheesh, I am starting to take this forum seriously

Good, then stop threatening to leave! You're a great contributor. So we all don't agree on the meat eating issue, big deal, I'm sure there is a lot more to 'spirit' than not eating meat.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Don't apologize, just don't lecture

Good, then stop threatening to leave! You're a great contributor. So we all don't agree on the meat eating issue, big deal, I'm sure there is a lot more to 'spirit' than not eating meat.

Actually, I was saying I am getting a headache and I am taking this as too seriously and I am going to leave... but never mind. have a good day.

Just a suggestion Jimnyc, first consider what the other person is saying before you bash the hell out of them.