Jesus was a liberal? & Thou Shalt Not Kill

[5stringJeff]

This is from another thread:

originally posted by gop_jeff
2. Jesus was a liberal in that he bucked the system. I don't think He would find much in common with today's anything-goes, do-whatever-feels-good liberals.

3. Thou shalt not kill... I could probably write a pamphlet on this one. Here's the short version: the Hebrew in that verse means 'murder.' Death was the established punishment for several crimes, but unjustified murder was outlawed by the sixth commandment.'

originally posted by spillmind
i wasn't aware there was so much grey area! so if the imposed death was justified (justified being the operative word), who determines this ultimate justification? our justice system?

The death sentence was given under Jewish law for certain things, like murder, witchcraft/sorcery, and adultery. The law came from God. So my answer to who determines the justification is: God.
Most people quote "thou shlat not kill" and think that there is never an instance where killing someone else is justified. This is not the case.

As far as Jesus being a liberal... well, spillmind, the ball is in your court on that one.

 

[Dan]

This is all I'm saying, and I'm not trying to start an argument:

The Bible is a book written a couple thousand years back, passed orally for years before it was even written down. Try telling a joke to your friend, then let that person tell another friend the same joke, then let that person tell someone the joke. I guarantee the joke will not be exactly the same.

Example: The passage most people cite as the Bible saying not to have premarital sex originally, according to many scholars, said not to have sex with prostitutes.There's any number of reasons, purposeful or otherwise, that this was changed.

The Bible is full of contradictions. I think people should look at it as a generally good source of inspiration, and full of a bunch of stories that show you how to live a good life, for the most part.

But, when you start establishing unchangable ideals or laws on what it says, that's when things get dangerous.

 

[Dan]

And I know this one's gonna start an argument, but I'm fairly certain if we all existed in Jesus' lifetime in Jerusalem, the majority of the right-wingers on the board would have no problem with Jesus being killed.

 

[janeeng]

Well you might be right about the Bible Dan, I believe that certain beliefs tend to make their own rules - but I don't think you can say that all the right-wingers on the board would want Jesus dead, maybe I am wrong, but there are others that don't even believe in Jesus at all that aren't right-wingers!

 

[5stringJeff]

Dan,

I know you're not looking for an argument... so I'll give you a rebuttal instead!

First, there are parts of the Old Testament that were passed down orally before being written down - mostly the first five books (what Jews consider the Torah). However, the Jews were pretty copious scribes, to the extent that after the kingdom of Israel was established, everything was being written down alomst as it happened. While it may not have been canonized until after the Babylonian captivity and return to Palestine, the books themselves were written as the events happened.
The New Testament was written within 30-60 years of the events that took place. The gospels were written by two eyewitnesses, one close friend of an eyewitness (Mark - Peter's close friend) and a historian who is considered to be among the finest of his age.
As far as the premarital sex passage - every translation I have ever seen of the seventh commandment says, "You shall not commit adultery." I am interested to know where the prostitute passage came from.
As far as the Bible being full of contradictions... I think that if you read the Bible in context, what may appear to be contradictions really are not. And as far as establishing unchanging truths based on the Bible... well, if one believes that the Bible is inspired by God, then it's easy to understand why one would take His word to be supreme.
And, to be honest, I think you may be right that some people today would have liked to see Christ crucified. Jesus didn't come to preach peace, love, and happiness to everyone, everywhere. He came to preach the word of God - and that offended a lot of people who thought He was trampling on their religious traditions. The conservative religious people of His day, the Pharisees, were the ones who convinced Pilate to crucify Him. But my point was that Jesus would not fit right in with the if-it-feels-good-do-it crowd.

 

[Dan]

but I don't think you can say that all the right-wingers on the board would want Jesus dead, maybe I am wrong, but there are others that don't even believe in Jesus at all that aren't right-wingers!

All I'm saying is, the right-wingers are happy in their beliefs and see no reason to change them. Therefore, if they were in this frame of mind in Jesus' time, they probably wouldn't take kindly to someone telling them to pretty much completely rethink what they thought about God. For example, and I realize this is taking it to an extreme, but that's okay... Take Marilyn Manson. Now, we all know he's a skinny gothboy with a too-big ego and an overworked imagination, but what if he's wasn't? What if someone came right out and said "I'm a descendant of Satan, and you all must worship him if you want any form of an afterlife". I'm pretty sure nobody would take too kindly to that, but I really think that the left-wingers would at least hear him out before the right-wingers tore him limb-from-limb. Me, well, you know how I feel about the whole thing (yes, I still feel that way, no need to get into that again, it makes people uncomfortable), so I probably wouldn't pay it too much mind anyway.

And, GOP, to tell the truth, the prostitution thing I heard was so long ago, I honestly couldn't tell you where it came from. I'm not much of a Bible reader, though I do have one in my room right now that I always say I'm going to read and then never do.

Also, I'm not trying to trample on anyone's beliefs, and I fully understand how many (my fundamentalist roommate, for example) could take its writings literally, and that's fine for them. I'm just saying, for me personally, I think it's better for one to use the Bible as a guide and form your own belief system.

For example, I think it's sort of sad to hate all gay people just because you think the Bible says you should.

Another one: I actually heard my aforementioned roommate tell one of my friends "your parents didn't do a good job raising you" because they didn't take him to church when he was growing up. In the same vein as that, my roommate also believes that every religious group other than Christianity is going straight to Hell, which I think is a really pious way of looking at things.

I promise I'm not trying to start an argument, but I do appreciate your "rebuttal", Jeff. When I say 'I don't want an argument', it's mainly because people tend to take these sorts of things very personally and are usually very sensitive around these issues.

 

[janeeng]

Dan,
As far as you saying that the Bible says you should hate gay people, I will disagree - maybe I am wrong - but like I stated in another posts, my Inlaws are born again Christians, and yes, I was upset when I said that I knew someone that was gay, their comment was "We don't hate them, we just don't associate with them" they claim that God dislikes it, but they shouldn't hate, but just shouldn't be around them. Of course, again, I do believe that each Religion make up their own beliefs! You have some religions claiming it's their way, or rot on earth. I understand what your saying, to a point though, but your also claiming that just the right-wingers are those that have the problems and that would have allowed Jesus to die had they have been in that time, and that I don't beleive - I think your comment on Rush too, being upset because he commented about Cobain, but let's face it, sometimes the truth hurts, and Cobain and Courtney both were drug addicts, FACT!

 

[Jackass]

Dan,
Who the FUCK do you think you are?? What gives you the right to...ok just kidding Whatever..I truly believe in Catholicism, but am VERY on the fence about Church. Whatever you belive in..as long as it makes you happy.

 

[Dan]

Jackass, you honestly got me nervous there for a second, I'm waiting for someone to flip out over this.

Anyway, yeah, I know the Bible doesn't say 'hate', but in the south at least, most people hate gays and use the Bible as their main argument against it. I honestly think that if you're a good, decent person, it doesn't really matter to God whether you like boys or girls. Not that I'm... that way, or anything. I mean, honestly, yeah, it makes me uncomfortable to watch 2 guys kiss or whatever, but not to the point that I'm going to say "those faggots are going to burn in Hell" (again, an exact quote).

but your also claiming that just the right-wingers are those that have the problems and that would have allowed Jesus to die had they have been in that time, and that I don't beleive

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree here, we're arguing the same stuff, now.

I think your comment on Rush too, being upset because he commented about Cobain, but let's face it, sometimes the truth hurts, and Cobain and Courtney both were drug addicts, FACT!

I wasn't upset because he "commented" on Kurt Cobain. It's one thing to say "yeah, he was a drug addict, so this was sort of expected", but to come out and basically say "who cares that this guy is dead, he was a piece of crap anyway" is not only idiotic, it's extremely disrespectful considering this was the day after he died.

I'm sure nobody here would care if after the Rush/pills thing broke, I came on here and said "ah, who cares what that bald piece of crap does, let him take them all and OD, one less a-hole in the world."

 

[jimnyc]

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

LOS ANGELES - Singer-actress Courtney Love (news) was arrested for allegedly being under the influence of a narcotic after police responded to a burglary call, and was taken to a treatment center, according to published reports.

Love, 39, was found early Thursday outside a Los Angeles home where she had allegedly broken the windows in an attempt to enter, police spokesman Don Cox said. She was arrested and booked for investigation of using illegal drugs, posted $2,500 bail and was released.

Hours later, police and paramedics in Beverly Hills responded to an emergency call and took a woman to a hospital for treatment, according to a story in Friday's editions of the Los Angeles Times.

Law enforcement sources told the newspaper that the woman was Love and that she had overdosed. It was not immediately known what her condition was.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031003/ap_en_mu/people_love

 

[5stringJeff]

As far as the gay thing, I think I've said this on here before, but i don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says that we are supposed to hate gays - or anyone else, for that matter. Is homosexuality a sin? Yes, clearly. But no one here (or anywhere, for that matter) is not a sinner, whether it's homosexuality, or adultery, or lying, or whatever else. So we have no room to judge others for their actions. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't warn people about the consequences of their sins, or that we shouldn't call things a sin when they are... I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should deal with people lovingly when they are blatantly sinning, and not judgmentally and/or harshly.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
But no one here (or anywhere, for that matter) is not a sinner, whether it's homosexuality, or adultery, or lying, or whatever else.

I've yet to commit any sins, I'm perfect in every way.

 

[Dan]

Jim, what was the point of that Courtney Love article? I'm not mad you posted it or anything, but it was pretty much offtopic and posting an article about courtney love getting arrested for drugs is like posting an article that says the sky is blue.

 

[Joan]

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

I have never seen in the Bible anything saying to hate gays or anyone else for that matter! The earliest religious thing that I was taught was "The Golden Rule" - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. As for is it a sin - my jury is still out on that one. I just cannot fathom anyone choosing to be gay, knowing how people feel about them. I honestly believe there is a mix-up somewhere in the gene pool. We have a gay in our family, and I believe she is a child of God, just as we all are. And she truly practices the teachings of the Bible.

 

[Joan]

It appears Jim posted that to let you know that Kurt's ways are still alive and kicking!

 

[Dan]

Well, like I said, I worded it wrong for what I was trying to say. Most southern Christians believe that God thinks homosexuality is evil, so as a result of that, they end up hating gay people.

And, I'm with you, I don't know that it's all that much of a sin. This...

Is homosexuality a sin? Yes, clearly.

sort of threw me for a loop. Not to get graphic, but is it the actual acts that gay people do that you consider sinful?

 

[Jackass]

Originally posted by Joan
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

We have a gay in our family, and I believe she is a child of God, just as we all are. And she truly practices the teachings of the Bible.

Joan..I know you are trying to protect your son Jim...but you dont have to say SHE. We all know

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Dan
Not to get graphic, but is it the actual acts that gay people do that you consider sinful?

Yes... while every person is a sinner in one way or another, it is the acts of homosexuality that are considered sins. But, like I've said before, one can ask for and receive forgiveness for any sin - including homosexual acts - through faith in Christ.
I do not know anyone personally who considers homosexuals to be some kind of unsavable sub-human. (I know they exist, because I see them on the news.) But the Bible is clear that everyone is equal in the eyes of God.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Dan
Jim, what was the point of that Courtney Love article? I'm not mad you posted it or anything, but it was pretty much offtopic and posting an article about courtney love getting arrested for drugs is like posting an article that says the sky is blue.

I was in reference to your other thread about Rush Limbaugh. I found it hilarious that this skank not only OD'd, but got arrested as well.

And since you have a history of not returning to threads after posting (See: Timothy McVeigh thought he was going to heaven) I thought I'd post it where you were current.

 

[Dan]

Yeah, well, I know it's insane to think that an extreme Christian fundamentalist would expect to go to heaven. Of course, I guess if my life consisted of looking up useless facts to prove how smart I am on a message board, I would have known that he didn't.