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here is the FULL passage in context....what do you think or believe it means Missourian?
Simon the Sorcerer
9 Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, 10 and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, “This man is rightly called the Great Power of God.” 11 They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his sorcery. 12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”
25 After they had further proclaimed the word of the Lord and testified about Jesus, Peter and John returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many Samaritan villages.
I don't have to believe...it clearly says "Repent of this wickedness".
yes, of course we should repent of our own wickedness....DID I SAY WE SHOULD NOT?
here is the FULL passage in context....what do you think or believe it means Missourian?
Simon the Sorcerer
9 Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, 10 and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, This man is rightly called the Great Power of God. 11 They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his sorcery. 12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money 19 and said, Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.
20 Peter answered: May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.
24 Then Simon answered, Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.
25 After they had further proclaimed the word of the Lord and testified about Jesus, Peter and John returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many Samaritan villages.
To me, it means that Missourian is either lying, or more likely, is one of the many moron Christians who dont understand the tenets of his own faith
Missourian claims that Simon was a believer, but Simons request to purchase Godly powers proves he wasn't a believer in Christ.
Missourian claims that Simon sinned "accidentally". The Bible proves that Simon did not ask for those powers "accidentally". His request was intentional
Verse 13 states "Simon himself believed and was baptized".
Is the Scripture lying?
Simon sin was accidental because he was using his former life as a guide.
Yes, Christ was special. That's why He could forgive without being asked for forgiveness. God gave His Son the power to do this. Ordinary souls, like yourself, are not capable of granting forgiveness to others for their sins, just as you are not capable of coming back to life after your death.
I'm suppose to try to forgive others, just as Christ did....before they ask for forgiveness. THAT IS the Christian doctrine. That is Christianity....Christ like.
Whether I can accomplish this, is another story....we all fall short of the Glory of God....if we did not, then Christ would not have needed to die as a sacrifice, for our collective sins.
By not requiring us to repent for our sins, yet given forgiveness, is humbling....humbling enough to make us or to make me, want to do better and "sin, no more"....humbling enough to make me Love God, even more....humbling enough to bring me to Christ, when I know I do not deserve Him or His forgiveness....
Only through Grace, can I be saved from myself.
I do repent, when I have sinned....not because it is required from God/Christ in order for me to be saved....but because God, loves me regardless..... and I owe Him for being so fabulous! I need to show Him, I can do better....I want to show Him that I can do better, I want to please Him....
There is only ONE, Unforgiveable sin, according to Christ and the Bible....and this is sinning against the Holy Spirit....denying the Holy Spirit....
Yes and no. I agree you can TRY to forgive without being asked, but the Bible makes it clear that only God (or one of his representatives on earth) has the power to do so. You can try as much as you want, but you do not have the power to forgive a persons' sins without them repenting (which includes their asking for forgiveness). So the bottom line is, you can not forgive unless you are asked for forgiveness. You can try, just as you can try to fly, but you can't do it
Howver, you are flat out wrong to say the repentance is not required. Jesus and his disciples (amongst many other biblical figures) were very clear that repetance is REQUIRED in order to be saved
Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
Isaiah 30:15
This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.
I'm suppose to try to forgive others, just as Christ did....before they ask for forgiveness. THAT IS the Christian doctrine. That is Christianity....Christ like.
Whether I can accomplish this, is another story....we all fall short of the Glory of God....if we did not, then Christ would not have needed to die as a sacrifice, for our collective sins.
By not requiring us to repent for our sins, yet given forgiveness, is humbling....humbling enough to make us or to make me, want to do better and "sin, no more"....humbling enough to make me Love God, even more....humbling enough to bring me to Christ, when I know I do not deserve Him or His forgiveness....
Only through Grace, can I be saved from myself.
I do repent, when I have sinned....not because it is required from God/Christ in order for me to be saved....but because God, loves me regardless..... and I owe Him for being so fabulous! I need to show Him, I can do better....I want to show Him that I can do better, I want to please Him....
There is only ONE, Unforgiveable sin, according to Christ and the Bible....and this is sinning against the Holy Spirit....denying the Holy Spirit....
Yes and no. I agree you can TRY to forgive without being asked, but the Bible makes it clear that only God (or one of his representatives on earth) has the power to do so. You can try as much as you want, but you do not have the power to forgive a persons' sins without them repenting (which includes their asking for forgiveness). So the bottom line is, you can not forgive unless you are asked for forgiveness. You can try, just as you can try to fly, but you can't do it
Howver, you are flat out wrong to say the repentance is not required. Jesus and his disciples (amongst many other biblical figures) were very clear that repetance is REQUIRED in order to be saved
Isaiah 30:15
This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.
i'm saying Christians repent because they want to please God and they feel ashamed and sickened that they disappointed Him...and not necessarily because some other human told them to repent, but because they are truly sorrowful, for what they have done.... a preacher can shout repent, repent repent, all day long to the choir....but those that do change and repent, have done so, on their own and with the grace of God.
rebuking another fellow Christian for their wrong doings is expected of us....whether it works or does not work, is up to the individual's personal relationship with God.
To me, it means that Missourian is either lying, or more likely, is one of the many moron Christians who dont understand the tenets of his own faith
Missourian claims that Simon was a believer, but Simons request to purchase Godly powers proves he wasn't a believer in Christ.
Missourian claims that Simon sinned "accidentally". The Bible proves that Simon did not ask for those powers "accidentally". His request was intentional
Verse 13 states "Simon himself believed and was baptized".
Is the Scripture lying?
Simon sin was accidental because he was using his former life as a guide.
I was wrong about the believing part.
And there was nothing "accidental" about Simon using his past life as a guide. It was a deliberate and intentional decision of his to use his past life as a guide after he had been baptized
Admit it. You made the "accidental" part up. There is nothing in the Bible that supports your claim that Simons' act was accidental
Verse 13 states "Simon himself believed and was baptized".
Is the Scripture lying?
Simon sin was accidental because he was using his former life as a guide.
I was wrong about the believing part.
And there was nothing "accidental" about Simon using his past life as a guide. It was a deliberate and intentional decision of his to use his past life as a guide after he had been baptized
Admit it. You made the "accidental" part up. There is nothing in the Bible that supports your claim that Simons' act was accidental
Rep coming your way for that..it takes a big person to admit they were wrong, you could have just as easily glossed over or completely ignored it.
As for accidentally, I meant he didn't realize it was a sin.
You are correct, that interpretation does not come directly from scripture, it comes from Biblical commentary.
You can find this HERE from Charles Dailey Commentary Online.
Commentary on verse 19...[SIZE=-1]Magical secrets were normally purchased from those who did them. [/SIZE]
Yes and no. I agree you can TRY to forgive without being asked, but the Bible makes it clear that only God (or one of his representatives on earth) has the power to do so. You can try as much as you want, but you do not have the power to forgive a persons' sins without them repenting (which includes their asking for forgiveness). So the bottom line is, you can not forgive unless you are asked for forgiveness. You can try, just as you can try to fly, but you can't do it
Howver, you are flat out wrong to say the repentance is not required. Jesus and his disciples (amongst many other biblical figures) were very clear that repetance is REQUIRED in order to be saved
i'm saying Christians repent because they want to please God and they feel ashamed and sickened that they disappointed Him...and not necessarily because some other human told them to repent, but because they are truly sorrowful, for what they have done.... a preacher can shout repent, repent repent, all day long to the choir....but those that do change and repent, have done so, on their own and with the grace of God.
rebuking another fellow Christian for their wrong doings is expected of us....whether it works or does not work, is up to the individual's personal relationship with God.
That is not true. What you said is that repentance is not required for forgiveness or salvation. What you said had nothing to do with WHY Christians repent, as you now claim. What you said was that repentance was not required for forgiveness or salvation.
And as far as rebuking Christians, I'd like to see some biblical support for your claim. From what I've read, God warns people against judging other people or their actions. You seem to be one of those christians who deny Gods Will whenever it is convenient to do so, but I'm willing to give you a chance to back up your claims.
So tell me where the Bible says that christians should judge the actions of other christians and rebuke them when they find those actions to be wrong.
Scripture and verse, please??I can't say I've ever had that problem.and yet, how many worldly possessions have you acquired and stored up over the years? You're in America. The default here is ridiculous over-production and over-consumption. So as I said: I have yet to see anyone actually follow that teaching.
Just a working stiff trying to make ends meet.
I see the super-Church evangelists and wonder the same.
And here we have a shining example of how nearly every christian ignores the Word of God. God wants them to sell their possessions. Christians are so greedy and dishonest that they will lie and claim they have nothing to give while typiing on a computer connected to the Internet.
i'm saying Christians repent because they want to please God and they feel ashamed and sickened that they disappointed Him...and not necessarily because some other human told them to repent, but because they are truly sorrowful, for what they have done.... a preacher can shout repent, repent repent, all day long to the choir....but those that do change and repent, have done so, on their own and with the grace of God.
rebuking another fellow Christian for their wrong doings is expected of us....whether it works or does not work, is up to the individual's personal relationship with God.
That is not true. What you said is that repentance is not required for forgiveness or salvation. What you said had nothing to do with WHY Christians repent, as you now claim. What you said was that repentance was not required for forgiveness or salvation.
And as far as rebuking Christians, I'd like to see some biblical support for your claim. From what I've read, God warns people against judging other people or their actions. You seem to be one of those christians who deny Gods Will whenever it is convenient to do so, but I'm willing to give you a chance to back up your claims.
So tell me where the Bible says that christians should judge the actions of other christians and rebuke them when they find those actions to be wrong.
are you saying we are all blemish free when we die and go on to the next life, because we have repented of all of our shortcomings? and that if we have not repented of ALL of our sins before we die that we will go to hell?
is this a free pass to sin all we want? NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT....we are suppose to ''change'' or ''repent of our sins'' or ''follow the Word of God'', i agree
.....but if one dies with a nagging sin on their soul that one has not repented for yet, or been able to overcome a certain shortfall yet, this will not automatically write them out of the Book of Life, and they will burn in hell forever, because of it. (thus my statement that it is not necessarily required for 'salvation'.)
I was wrong about the believing part.
And there was nothing "accidental" about Simon using his past life as a guide. It was a deliberate and intentional decision of his to use his past life as a guide after he had been baptized
Admit it. You made the "accidental" part up. There is nothing in the Bible that supports your claim that Simons' act was accidental
Rep coming your way for that..it takes a big person to admit they were wrong, you could have just as easily glossed over or completely ignored it.
As for accidentally, I meant he didn't realize it was a sin.
You are correct, that interpretation does not come directly from scripture, it comes from Biblical commentary.
You can find this HERE from Charles Dailey Commentary Online.
Commentary on verse 19...[SIZE=-1]Magical secrets were normally purchased from those who did them. [/SIZE]
Ahh, so you meant "unknowingly". That makes more sense. Thanks for clearing that up when you could have glossed over it.
And thanks for the link. I'll read it and respond later
on edit: I read the commentary and it supports your claims about Simons request for power. However, it does undermine the claim that Simon was a believer at the time he made his request. The commentary notes that some believe that Simons' conversion was not "real" because they believe that salvation can not be lost. However, this is not doctrine, but is instead a matter of controversy within the christian community. Therefore it would be inaccurate for anyone, including myself, to say that one is right and one is wrong. I might believe that one is right and one wrong, but my belief would be based on opinion, not fact
Scripture and verse, please??I can't say I've ever had that problem.
Just a working stiff trying to make ends meet.
I see the super-Church evangelists and wonder the same.
And here we have a shining example of how nearly every christian ignores the Word of God. God wants them to sell their possessions. Christians are so greedy and dishonest that they will lie and claim they have nothing to give while typiing on a computer connected to the Internet.
That is not true. What you said is that repentance is not required for forgiveness or salvation. What you said had nothing to do with WHY Christians repent, as you now claim. What you said was that repentance was not required for forgiveness or salvation.
And as far as rebuking Christians, I'd like to see some biblical support for your claim. From what I've read, God warns people against judging other people or their actions. You seem to be one of those christians who deny Gods Will whenever it is convenient to do so, but I'm willing to give you a chance to back up your claims.
So tell me where the Bible says that christians should judge the actions of other christians and rebuke them when they find those actions to be wrong.
are you saying we are all blemish free when we die and go on to the next life, because we have repented of all of our shortcomings? and that if we have not repented of ALL of our sins before we die that we will go to hell?
No. For one thing, I'm not a christian so I don't believe any of the stuff I am posting when I post about christian doctrine. I am also not saying that christian doctrine holds that "we are all blemish free when we die", etc
I am saying that only God can grant forgiveness without being asked. Remember? This subthread began with your claim that one doesn't have to be asked for forgiveness to be forgiven.
is this a free pass to sin all we want? NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT....we are suppose to ''change'' or ''repent of our sins'' or ''follow the Word of God'', i agree
.....but if one dies with a nagging sin on their soul that one has not repented for yet, or been able to overcome a certain shortfall yet, this will not automatically write them out of the Book of Life, and they will burn in hell forever, because of it. (thus my statement that it is not necessarily required for 'salvation'.)
I don't know where you got the idea that I beleive, or have said, anything like this. Christian doctrine allows for people to be saved even if they haven't been forgiven for all their sins. That what Grace is about.
We are discussing whether it is possible for an ordinary person to grant forgiveness (in the spiritual sense) to someone who has not asked for it, and whether someone can be saved without repentance.
I was wrong about the believing part.
And there was nothing "accidental" about Simon using his past life as a guide. It was a deliberate and intentional decision of his to use his past life as a guide after he had been baptized
Admit it. You made the "accidental" part up. There is nothing in the Bible that supports your claim that Simons' act was accidental
Rep coming your way for that..it takes a big person to admit they were wrong, you could have just as easily glossed over or completely ignored it.
As for accidentally, I meant he didn't realize it was a sin.
You are correct, that interpretation does not come directly from scripture, it comes from Biblical commentary.
You can find this HERE from Charles Dailey Commentary Online.
Commentary on verse 19...[SIZE=-1]Magical secrets were normally purchased from those who did them. [/SIZE]
Ahh, so you meant "unknowingly". That makes more sense. Thanks for clearing that up when you could have glossed over it.
And thanks for the link. I'll read it and respond later
on edit: I read the commentary and it supports your claims about Simons request for power. However, it does undermine the claim that Simon was a believer at the time he made his request. The commentary notes that some believe that Simons' conversion was not "real" because they believe that salvation can not be lost. However, this is not doctrine, but is instead a matter of controversy within the christian community. Therefore it would be inaccurate for anyone, including myself, to say that one is right and one is wrong. I might believe that one is right and one wrong, but my belief would be based on opinion, not fact
That is Jesus talking to one man who, obviously, didn't want to give up his worldly possessions to go and follow Jesus and the disciples on their journey.Scripture and verse, please??And here we have a shining example of how nearly every christian ignores the Word of God. God wants them to sell their possessions. Christians are so greedy and dishonest that they will lie and claim they have nothing to give while typiing on a computer connected to the Internet.
It has already been posted, you moron
Matthew 19:21
Proverbs 10:22 (NIV)
The blessing of the LORD brings wealth, and he adds no trouble to it.
it's time we left childish things, like religion, behind us.
Scripture and verse, please??And here we have a shining example of how nearly every christian ignores the Word of God. God wants them to sell their possessions. Christians are so greedy and dishonest that they will lie and claim they have nothing to give while typiing on a computer connected to the Internet.
It has already been posted, you moron
Matthew 19:21
That is Jesus talking to one man who, obviously, didn't want to give up his worldly possessions to go and follow Jesus and the disciples on their journey.
It is a parable meant to teach us not to covet the things of this world over our Heavenly kingdom that is promised to us for following His commandments.
There is no commandment of poverty.
Rep coming your way for that..it takes a big person to admit they were wrong, you could have just as easily glossed over or completely ignored it.
As for accidentally, I meant he didn't realize it was a sin.
You are correct, that interpretation does not come directly from scripture, it comes from Biblical commentary.
You can find this HERE from Charles Dailey Commentary Online.
Commentary on verse 19...[SIZE=-1]Magical secrets were normally purchased from those who did them. [/SIZE]
Ahh, so you meant "unknowingly". That makes more sense. Thanks for clearing that up when you could have glossed over it.
And thanks for the link. I'll read it and respond later
on edit: I read the commentary and it supports your claims about Simons request for power. However, it does undermine the claim that Simon was a believer at the time he made his request. The commentary notes that some believe that Simons' conversion was not "real" because they believe that salvation can not be lost. However, this is not doctrine, but is instead a matter of controversy within the christian community. Therefore it would be inaccurate for anyone, including myself, to say that one is right and one is wrong. I might believe that one is right and one wrong, but my belief would be based on opinion, not fact
I reread Dailey's Commentary more carefully after you posted this.
I did not originally come by the information on the reasons behind Simon's sin from Dailey, but through an online source in my personal library.
After a critical read, Acts Chapter 8 verse 22 says...according to Dailey...that "[SIZE=-1]Simon was a believer, but with a view not acceptable to the Lord of the church. Repentance and prayer were the only way back."
That interpretation has far reaching ramifications.
[/SIZE]
That is Jesus talking to one man who, obviously, didn't want to give up his worldly possessions to go and follow Jesus and the disciples on their journey.Scripture and verse, please??
It has already been posted, you moron
Matthew 19:21
It is a parable meant to teach us not to covet the things of this world over our Heavenly kingdom that is promised to us for following His commandments.
There is no commandment of poverty.
Proverbs 10:22 (NIV)
The blessing of the LORD brings wealth, and he adds no trouble to it.
