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Israel's Legal Right To Exist
Still nothing, huh.
You said yourself in post #2527:
The plan of the Mandate was to assist immigrating Jews in getting Palestinian citizenship and forming an independent state for all of its citizens.
For ALL of it's citizens and only with their consent, unfortunately for that "plan" the Zionists had a different idea, a "Jews-only" settler state. Time and again the native population of Palestine was denied it's right of self determination in favour of this "plan"; one of the worst injustices ever perpetrated by the British Empire in all of it's history. We should be ashamed of ourselves, but instead we cosy up to the Zionist regime and sweep this travesty under the carpet.
Israel's Legal Right To Exist
Still nothing, huh.
You said yourself in post #2527:
The plan of the Mandate was to assist immigrating Jews in getting Palestinian citizenship and forming an independent state for all of its citizens.
For ALL of it's citizens and only with their consent, unfortunately for that "plan" the Zionists had a different idea, a "Jews-only" settler state. Time and again the native population of Palestine was denied it's right of self determination in favour of this "plan"; one of the worst injustices ever perpetrated by the British Empire in all of it's history. We should be ashamed of ourselves, but instead we cosy up to the Zionist regime and sweep this travesty under the carpet.
For ALL of it's citizens and only with their consent, unfortunately for that "plan" the Zionists had a different idea, a "Jews-only" settler state. Time and again the native population of Palestine was denied it's right of self determination in favour of this "plan"; one of the worst injustices ever perpetrated by the British Empire in all of it's history. We should be ashamed of ourselves, but instead we cosy up to the Zionist regime and sweep this travesty under the carpet.
I always address both sides.2. Failing to address the actions of both parties to the conflict, and laying the entire responsibility at the feet of the Jews is disingenuous.
I always address both sides.2. Failing to address the actions of both parties to the conflict, and laying the entire responsibility at the feet of the Jews is disingenuous.
Israeli side:
All through the Mandate period, the Zionists imported people and weapons for the stated purpose of removing the Palestinians and creating a Jewish state on their land.
Palestinian side:
The Palestinians always resisted this settler colonial project.
Resolution 181 was rejected and never implemented. It didn't establish anything. It is a non issue.Israeli side: UN vote establishes Israel as a country after the Holocaust & wants to be recognized as such by Palestinians for peace.
I always address both sides.2. Failing to address the actions of both parties to the conflict, and laying the entire responsibility at the feet of the Jews is disingenuous.
Israeli side:
All through the Mandate period, the Zionists imported people and weapons for the stated purpose of removing the Palestinians and creating a Jewish state on their land.
Palestinian side:
The Palestinians always resisted this settler colonial project.
Get Serious.
Israeli side: UN vote establishes Israel as a country after the Holocaust & wants to be recognized as such by Palestinians for peace.
Palestinian Side. Attack after attack on Israeli's with intent to kill all of them & take all land. At least I give the Palestinians credit for electing Hamas to make that clear to any who doubted it.
For ALL of it's citizens and only with their consent, unfortunately for that "plan" the Zionists had a different idea, a "Jews-only" settler state. Time and again the native population of Palestine was denied it's right of self determination in favour of this "plan"; one of the worst injustices ever perpetrated by the British Empire in all of it's history. We should be ashamed of ourselves, but instead we cosy up to the Zionist regime and sweep this travesty under the carpet.
There are so many flaws in this post, its hard to know where to begin.
1. Appealing to emotions does not make for a valid argument. In fact, appeals to emotion like this are a common tactic for Team Palestine when they are incapable of addressing the actual topic under discussion.
2. Failing to address the actions of both parties to the conflict, and laying the entire responsibility at the feet of the Jews is disingenuous.
3. There is no legal requirement for Arab Palestinian consent to the self-determination of the Jewish people. (Likewise, Palestinians do not need Jewish consent for their self-determination).
4. Your intent to demonize the Jewish people with false charges is obvious, and obviously a projection. There is NOT a Jew-only state. There never has been. There was never intended to be. (In STARK contrast to not only the Jew-free Palestinian territories, but the nearly Jew-free Arab world.) It astounds me that apparently intelligent people can believe something with so little basis in reality and fact.
Now, the topic, remember, is the legal foundation of Israel's right to exist. Its been 257 pages, if anyone has a legal argument as to why the Jewish people are prohibited from forming a State and holding a national self-determination, bring it.
I always address both sides.2. Failing to address the actions of both parties to the conflict, and laying the entire responsibility at the feet of the Jews is disingenuous.
Israeli side:
All through the Mandate period, the Zionists imported people and weapons for the stated purpose of removing the Palestinians and creating a Jewish state on their land.
Palestinian side:
The Palestinians always resisted this settler colonial project.
I always address both sides.2. Failing to address the actions of both parties to the conflict, and laying the entire responsibility at the feet of the Jews is disingenuous.
Israeli side:
All through the Mandate period, the Zionists imported people and weapons for the stated purpose of removing the Palestinians and creating a Jewish state on their land.
Palestinian side:
The Palestinians always resisted this settler colonial project.
Typical Israeli bullshit talking point.The Arabs-Moslems did not own the geographic area of Pal'istan.
Typical Israeli bullshit talking point.The Arabs-Moslems did not own the geographic area of Pal'istan.
Vladimir Jabotinsky (1880-1940), He always believed that the creation of a Jewish state meant imposing the will of Zionism on the Palestinian population. He stated:
“…colonisation can continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through…this is our policy towards the Arabs and to formulate it in any other way would be hypocrisy…The Jewish question can be solved either completely or it cannot be solved at all. We are in need of a territory where our people will constitute the overwhelming majority…and one must not be afraid of the word ‘segregation’ ”.
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), a Hungarian Jew, dreamt of establishing a Jewish State in the land of Palestine, a dream which was to be realised through colonisation and land acquisition. According to Zionist archives, the leadership of early Zionism believed that the native population of Palestine, as a result of this colonisation, would simply “fold their tents and slip away” or, if they resisted, they would be “spirited across the borders”.
The Zionist Project - 1948
There are a few things mentioned here: colonialism, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing.
But in reference to your post, the Palestinians are the natives in Palestine. Being the people of the place and the legal citizens of Palestine, they have the inherent, inalienable right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity. (As affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.)
Colonial projects do not have those rights.
Typical Israeli bullshit talking point.The Arabs-Moslems did not own the geographic area of Pal'istan.
Vladimir Jabotinsky (1880-1940), He always believed that the creation of a Jewish state meant imposing the will of Zionism on the Palestinian population. He stated:
“…colonisation can continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through…this is our policy towards the Arabs and to formulate it in any other way would be hypocrisy…The Jewish question can be solved either completely or it cannot be solved at all. We are in need of a territory where our people will constitute the overwhelming majority…and one must not be afraid of the word ‘segregation’ ”.
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), a Hungarian Jew, dreamt of establishing a Jewish State in the land of Palestine, a dream which was to be realised through colonisation and land acquisition. According to Zionist archives, the leadership of early Zionism believed that the native population of Palestine, as a result of this colonisation, would simply “fold their tents and slip away” or, if they resisted, they would be “spirited across the borders”.
The Zionist Project - 1948
There are a few things mentioned here: colonialism, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing.
But in reference to your post, the Palestinians are the natives in Palestine. Being the people of the place and the legal citizens of Palestine, they have the inherent, inalienable right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity. (As affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.)
Colonial projects do not have those rights.
Typical Islamist talking points.
Let's have a look at your what your fascist Islamist heroes define as their Islamist paradise:
The Avalon Project : The Palestinian National Charter
Article 1:
Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.
Article 3:
The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.
There's lots more whining about what is ultimately a failure of the Arab-Moslem Death Cultists to achieve their Islamist paradise.
Both you and they share the same propensity for failure and the willingness to embarrass yourselves with announcements of those failures and your self-created ineptitudes.
Go complain about your inadequacies to the prayer leader at your madrassah.
Is deflection all you have?Typical Israeli bullshit talking point.The Arabs-Moslems did not own the geographic area of Pal'istan.
Vladimir Jabotinsky (1880-1940), He always believed that the creation of a Jewish state meant imposing the will of Zionism on the Palestinian population. He stated:
“…colonisation can continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through…this is our policy towards the Arabs and to formulate it in any other way would be hypocrisy…The Jewish question can be solved either completely or it cannot be solved at all. We are in need of a territory where our people will constitute the overwhelming majority…and one must not be afraid of the word ‘segregation’ ”.
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), a Hungarian Jew, dreamt of establishing a Jewish State in the land of Palestine, a dream which was to be realised through colonisation and land acquisition. According to Zionist archives, the leadership of early Zionism believed that the native population of Palestine, as a result of this colonisation, would simply “fold their tents and slip away” or, if they resisted, they would be “spirited across the borders”.
The Zionist Project - 1948
There are a few things mentioned here: colonialism, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing.
But in reference to your post, the Palestinians are the natives in Palestine. Being the people of the place and the legal citizens of Palestine, they have the inherent, inalienable right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity. (As affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.)
Colonial projects do not have those rights.
Typical Islamist talking points.
Let's have a look at your what your fascist Islamist heroes define as their Islamist paradise:
The Avalon Project : The Palestinian National Charter
Article 1:
Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.
Article 3:
The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.
There's lots more whining about what is ultimately a failure of the Arab-Moslem Death Cultists to achieve their Islamist paradise.
Both you and they share the same propensity for failure and the willingness to embarrass yourselves with announcements of those failures and your self-created ineptitudes.
Go complain about your inadequacies to the prayer leader at your madrassah.
Is deflection all you have?Typical Israeli bullshit talking point.The Arabs-Moslems did not own the geographic area of Pal'istan.
Vladimir Jabotinsky (1880-1940), He always believed that the creation of a Jewish state meant imposing the will of Zionism on the Palestinian population. He stated:
“…colonisation can continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through…this is our policy towards the Arabs and to formulate it in any other way would be hypocrisy…The Jewish question can be solved either completely or it cannot be solved at all. We are in need of a territory where our people will constitute the overwhelming majority…and one must not be afraid of the word ‘segregation’ ”.
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), a Hungarian Jew, dreamt of establishing a Jewish State in the land of Palestine, a dream which was to be realised through colonisation and land acquisition. According to Zionist archives, the leadership of early Zionism believed that the native population of Palestine, as a result of this colonisation, would simply “fold their tents and slip away” or, if they resisted, they would be “spirited across the borders”.
The Zionist Project - 1948
There are a few things mentioned here: colonialism, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing.
But in reference to your post, the Palestinians are the natives in Palestine. Being the people of the place and the legal citizens of Palestine, they have the inherent, inalienable right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity. (As affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.)
Colonial projects do not have those rights.
Typical Islamist talking points.
Let's have a look at your what your fascist Islamist heroes define as their Islamist paradise:
The Avalon Project : The Palestinian National Charter
Article 1:
Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.
Article 3:
The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.
There's lots more whining about what is ultimately a failure of the Arab-Moslem Death Cultists to achieve their Islamist paradise.
Both you and they share the same propensity for failure and the willingness to embarrass yourselves with announcements of those failures and your self-created ineptitudes.
Go complain about your inadequacies to the prayer leader at your madrassah.
Sad.
As to the legal foundation for the Zionist paradise, there isn't one.
And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact
There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.
ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...
Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group
So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.
And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact
There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.
See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.
(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)
ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...
Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group
Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.
And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.
So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.
Challenger's POV SHOCKS you?And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact
There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.
See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.
(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)
ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...
Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group
Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.
And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.
So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.
Challenger's POV SHOCKS you?
REALLY!?
I see you have not been studying the Parashah of the week; if you had, you would understand the Eisav archtype.Challenger's POV SHOCKS you?
REALLY!?
Well, yes and no. I'm certainly getting used to it. But I can't wrap my head around how apparently intelligent people can hold opinions which are so contrary to objective reality.
I mean, I get the whole "but its Palestinian land" argument. (Its biased, makes use of redefining words and ignores principles of law, but I get how people believe it). I get the "we have the right to resist" argument. (Which tends to ignore the "we get to resist back (aka defend ourselves) argument, but I get how people believe that.)
But the idea that there is some sort of objective criteria which specifically excludes the Jewish people from being a "people" is simply ridiculous. And the idea that the "proof" of the Jews wanting a "Jew-only" state is the desired and deliberate misery of the Arab Israelis and we are just BAD at it, is beyond comprehension.
