P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
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Vladimir Jabotinsky and Theodor Herzl were Islamic.Typical Islamist talking points.
My, what you can't learn on these boards.
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Vladimir Jabotinsky and Theodor Herzl were Islamic.Typical Islamist talking points.
You keep saying that without proving it to be true. Which is typical for Israeli talking points.ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination.
Yeah, strange, that. We learn from Islamic terrorist huggers that various Islamic terrorist franchises are "freedom fighters" and that base acts of savagery against civilians by Islamic terrorists are heroic acts that are to be lauded.Vladimir Jabotinsky and Theodor Herzl were Islamic.Typical Islamist talking points.
My, what you can't learn on these boards.
Its a simple moral imperative. ALL peoples have the inherent right of self-determination. Not SOME peoples. ALL peoples.You keep saying that without proving it to be true. Which is typical for Israeli talking points.
There were the native, indigenous Jewish people. And the Arab people. Two very distinct cultures. Those were and are the two peoples there. Those were and are the two peoples in conflict with each other.There were two people there. There were the Native Muslims, Christians, and Jews.
Self-determination for a peoples includes ALL of those peoples. Outsiders don't get to pick and choose who is part of a self-determining group. That is up to the peoples involved. That is part of the self-determining - self-identification. Jews don't get to decide who considers themselves Palestinian. Palestinians do.Then there were the foreign colonial settlers.
Um. Once AGAIN. The Mandate for Palestine.Post one international law or one UN document mentioning any rights for colonial settlers.I await your response.
Indeed, the Mandate was the road map for the settler colonial project. That is why the Zionists chose Britain, the major colonial power at that time, to have the Mandate for Palestine. Britain could not implement its plan because it got too much push back from the native population. Britain left Palestine in defeat.Its a simple moral imperative. ALL peoples have the inherent right of self-determination. Not SOME peoples. ALL peoples.You keep saying that without proving it to be true. Which is typical for Israeli talking points.
There were the native, indigenous Jewish people. And the Arab people. Two very distinct cultures. Those were and are the two peoples there. Those were and are the two peoples in conflict with each other.There were two people there. There were the Native Muslims, Christians, and Jews.
Self-determination for a peoples includes ALL of those peoples. Outsiders don't get to pick and choose who is part of a self-determining group. That is up to the peoples involved. That is part of the self-determining - self-identification. Jews don't get to decide who considers themselves Palestinian. Palestinians do.Then there were the foreign colonial settlers.
Um. Once AGAIN. The Mandate for Palestine.Post one international law or one UN document mentioning any rights for colonial settlers.I await your response.
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country;
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.
The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.
The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.
The Administration may arrange with the Jewish agency mentioned in Article 4 to construct or operate, upon fair and equitable terms, any public works, services and utilities, and to develop any of the natural resources of the country,
Indeed, your re-writing of history is a laughable joke. The Zionists™ did not manage or direct which nation would implement the terms of the Mandate.Indeed, the Mandate was the road map for the settler colonial project. That is why the Zionists chose Britain, the major colonial power at that time, to have the Mandate for Palestine. Britain could not implement its plan because it got too much push back from the native population. Britain left Palestine in defeat.Its a simple moral imperative. ALL peoples have the inherent right of self-determination. Not SOME peoples. ALL peoples.You keep saying that without proving it to be true. Which is typical for Israeli talking points.
There were the native, indigenous Jewish people. And the Arab people. Two very distinct cultures. Those were and are the two peoples there. Those were and are the two peoples in conflict with each other.There were two people there. There were the Native Muslims, Christians, and Jews.
Self-determination for a peoples includes ALL of those peoples. Outsiders don't get to pick and choose who is part of a self-determining group. That is up to the peoples involved. That is part of the self-determining - self-identification. Jews don't get to decide who considers themselves Palestinian. Palestinians do.Then there were the foreign colonial settlers.
Um. Once AGAIN. The Mandate for Palestine.Post one international law or one UN document mentioning any rights for colonial settlers.I await your response.
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country;
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.
The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.
The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.
The Administration may arrange with the Jewish agency mentioned in Article 4 to construct or operate, upon fair and equitable terms, any public works, services and utilities, and to develop any of the natural resources of the country,
...because there is no legal argument that can be made for a legal foundation of the Zionist paradise. Zionist Israel exists therefore it is...for now at least. It has no legal right to exist, period.As to the legal foundation for the Zionist paradise, there isn't one.
Yes. So Team Palestine keeps saying. Saying does not make it so. And repeating the claim ad nauseam without providing legal arguments for the claim simply demonstrates you have no legal argument.
And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately.
There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.
ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.
the diminishing of the Jewish people
Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.
So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.
And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact
There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.
See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.
(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)
ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...
Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group
Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.
And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.
So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.
Why is it that as soon as Israel turned a near wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here came hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land.
I can't wrap my head around how apparently intelligent people can hold opinions which are so contrary to objective reality.
No they didn't. Israel was created by foreigners in Palestine completely unrelated to the Mandate or resolution 181. They did not get any legitimacy from any of the former proposals.Tinmore, I'm not sure how to break this to you .... but the Jewish people implemented the f&$# out of that plan.
And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact
There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.
See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.
(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)
ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...
Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group
Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.
And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.
So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.
Why is it that as soon as Israel turned a near wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here came hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land.
It was never a wasteland. That's another Zionist lie.
I have never said that.The Jewish people don't count as a people.
And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact
There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.
See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.
(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)
ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...
Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group
Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.
And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.
So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.
Why is it that as soon as Israel turned a near wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here came hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land.
It was never a wasteland. That's another Zionist lie.
You were in Israel prior to 1948???
"The Jewish people don't count as a people. And there is no legal right for Israel to exist."
I got up this morning, seeing all these alerts on this thread, hoping for some good discussion.
And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact
There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.
See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.
(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)
ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...
Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group
Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.
And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.
So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.
Why is it that as soon as Israel turned a near wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here came hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land.
It was never a wasteland. That's another Zionist lie.
You were in Israel prior to 1948???
Zionist Israel didn't exist prior to 1948.
Nope, Israelis. "Israelites" are either extinct or are called Palestinians nowadays.And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.
There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.
See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.
(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)
ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.
Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.
Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.
And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.
So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.
Why is it that as soon as Israel turned a near wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here came hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land.
It was never a wasteland. That's another Zionist lie.
You were in Israel prior to 1948???
Zionist Israel didn't exist prior to 1948.
So is 1948 when they became known as the Israelites?
But non of Jew's prophets born in in occupied Palestine.Lets just consider documented facts. Fair enough?
Israel's History and Right to Exist - Discover the Networks