Comrade
Senior Member
José said:
You might have defeated my patience, but I doubt anyone really wins these debates. The only victory that counts is to change someones perspective.
This is the first time Ive had a chance to read and comment on it.
What part about equating Jews with Nazis am I supposed to understand?
Somehow the democratically and equally elected legislature by all Jews and gentiles within the state of Israel choosing to limit immigration equates burning Muslims in ovens to you? You certainly dont have the same problem with Saudi Arabia policy of evicting all non-Muslims from its countryside. And you certainly have yet to deal with the PLO charter supported by the regions vast Muslim majority and how it illustrates the policy of genocide as a legal and just measure for rectification.
And you lead up to the claim that:
You have a moral duty to recognize the urging of such solutions through this diatribe is exactly how Jews were made subject of mass murder in our grandfathers lifetimes. Your argument is quite shortsighted and morally questionable.
Thats their right to think that way, but it doesnt mean I would give them domain over Isreal and expect that pattern of behavior to change.
What happens when we grant the Islamic movement sovereignty to establish Islamic law in Kashmir, Chechnya, vast disputed regions in Africa, or even Iraq. Will it ever stop there? Is the demand from this out of control monster for Spain then something we
should seriously consider as important?
Of course not, as this pattern of thinking is simply a reincarnation of the same appeasement ghost that led to the destruction of WWII.
Are you advocating the invasion of and overthrow of Israel in order to eliminate racism in Isreal? I suppose Hussein was simply the second choice behind Sharon the mass murdering tyrant!
And why do you keep confusing race and religion? Not all Semites are Jewish nor all of Jewish faith Semites.
Youve made no argument for Isreals Democracy as racist other than the fact that it restricts its immigration to favor Jews. Do I want to see Isreals borders opened to all comers, the vast majority of those being Jew hating muslims? Certainly they dont. And its their right as a free nation to choose their legislature to enact restrictions according to their wishes. Thats the way Democracy works in this world of sovereign nations. Why dont you advocate the overthrow of all Muslim nations because they in turn dont allow the immigration of Jews or Christians to their nations? Obviously not because its part of this moral immigration policy of yours, but because nobody wants to live there.
But plenty of impoverished Arabs would LOVE to immigrate into Isreal and topple the Liberal Democracy into another Islamic state through numbers alone.
I think you fail to look at this likely end result of what you advocate as a solution to this issue.
Why isnt the fall of Saddam, who was one of the main supporters of Palestinian terrorists, a figurehead for militantcy for the greater Arab state, and an oppressor of millions and a danger to our security in his own right, why wasn't he the BEST place to start.
American troops in Palestine??? Can you imagine the uproar from the ENTIRE WORLD over this? And the terrorist backlash would be in full swing. And to what end? Immigration rights to Isreal for a few million?
I don't think it would accomplish anything more than the destruction of the state of Israel, and of course the eventual backlash from that state which would leave the region in smoking nuclear ruins.
And the American people wouldnt have any of it. They know more than you assume.
Since I do not advocate the toppling of Isreal and enforcement of some kind of racial equality in the region via American troops, I am a right wing flag pumper?
Then again, how does being a so called supporter of Zionism make me a moronic super patriot? You also realize thats a contraction in terms, as Im an American gentile.
The basic premise that your making about me is wrong. I am not a blind patriot by rejecting your argument. I reject your argument out of basic principle. The priciples of individual liberty are best served by NOT overthrowing a functioning liberal Democracy in a region devoid of all such, but by going after the true tyrants who work to destroy all such vestiges in their own region. Afganistan and soon Iraq are examples from which more countries in the region will hopefully follow, until the question of Democray in Isreal is no longer relevant those oppressed as you say, can vote with their feet and truly live in freedom and equality in the neighboring nations which you functionally disregard when discussing the situation of freedom in the entire region.
But Im highly doubtful these Arab nations, most 99%+ Muslim and strongly so, will ever truly understand the concept of equality, liberty, and tolerance to the extent that liberal western nations, including Israel, have attained. And even when they do understand what our type of society entails, many reject it in practice, in favour of their traditional ways. And they'll continue to do so unless their society undergoes a sea change in their way of life, and prodded into it with the help of the West in providing security for at least a full new generation of people within them. We can only provide security from the re-establishment of tyranny and hope their traditional way do not ursurp their own movement into Global modernization, but in the end its really up to themselves to advance.
But to do so in an area which will remain fundamentally conflicted by tension between the modern and Islamic world, that is, the less than 1% fraction of their world which lies in the borders of Democratic Isreal, I rightly fear you kind of solution would cause more problems than it solved.
Do I support helping them in any way we can ? Most certainly. Thats part of the reason we have invaded Iraq. But any fool will tell you we chose Iraq for other various reasons that are in our own benefit as well, and rightly so. To accuse me of supra-nationalistic motives for not having opposed this and instead have chosen Palestinian intervention is not rational whatsoever. Your argument advancing this as a solution is not only self-defeating for our purposes of spreading Democracy among tyrannical states, but ultimately at odds with the freedom of those living among them.
!!!
