Israelis, Palestinians Retreating From Hardline Stances

[Comrade]

I always enter Saudi chatlines where I bash Saudi Arabia’s theocratic monarchy to my heart’s content.

One of the less offensive things I say there is that travelling to Saudi is the closest experience one can get of living in a medieval feud without building a time machine.

Now ask yourself this:

Does the fact that the arab world is dominated by dictatorships somehow justifies the existance of a jewish racial dictatorship in the Middle East that denies citizenship and the right to rebuild their original communities to millions of displaced arabs?

I don’t have to answer that question, because you cannot claim ‘the fact that… there is a jewish racial dictatorship. Let me reiterate;

1. Immigration policy into a sovereign state which is legislated by a democratically selected group of representatives is NOT what defines a dictatorship. Your version of apartheid in Isreal is confused, and has no resemblence to whathappened internally within the South African state.

2. Preferences revolving around nation of origin, social status, individual skillset, national security concerns and so on are entirely within the right of a sovereign state to determine. And you should really stop confusing race with religion. You realize there are black Jews, don’t you?

3. A ‘racial dictatorship’ would not allow equal civil rights (incl. Freedom to worship) and democratic representation to its more than 20% minority, as does Israel . I think you need a new catch phrase to make any sense here.

Does the fact that Africa is dominated by dictatorships somehow justified the existance of a boer racial dictatorship in the southern part of that continent that denied citizenship to millions of displaced black africans kept herded against their will in impoverished, overcrowded pseudo-republics called Bantustans?

You disregard the difference being that Israel has no sovereignty over Gaza and the West bank, and is in a de-facto state of war with the terrorists in those regions. Those regions are incapable and unwilling to form their own semblance of real democracy given their feeding off the teat of the UN and a social system of rewarding acts of aggression against the citizens of Isreal, which is a separate sovereign state capable of forming a stable, Liberal Democracy.

To solve this problem, we must cut the flow of money and arms to the Palestinians and make all international aid conditional based on accountable and sincere efforts at rebuilding a productive society. I'd like to see this conditional upon equal rights and individual liberties guaranteed by a Democratic and Representative government someday, but just getting the Palestinians working again is a start.

You cannot unleash such a society which arms its children and calls upon the deaths of all Jews upon a democratic and civil people and expect anything less than a complete bloodbath.

How can a racial dictatorship be “legitimised” by a ‘standard’ dictatorship?

What kind of twisted logic is that?

Your trying to make some kind of contrued ‘racial dictatorship’ more eeeevil than the ‘standard’ one. Just to attack a Liberal democracy. That’s pretty twisted.

I believe that Aristotle’s work, “Sophistic Refutations” should be mandatory reading for anyone who wants to participate in any kind of debate, real world or online.

When I see “arguments” like that quoted above I sadly lose my faith on my species' ability to think properly.

Aren’t you the condescending one! Part of being brilliant is convincing others that you are. You’re not doing a great job here.

When you choose between a jewish ethnocracy like Israel, and a dictatorship like Syria, you are not choosing between a democracy and a dictatorship.

You are choosing between two kinds of dictatorships:

A racial dictatorship that denies civil rights to millions of displaced people whose only crime is to belong to the “unofficial ethnicity”.

And a dictatorship that denies civil rights to all its population.

And this is in fact a logical fallacy known as false dichotomy.

You don’t have “to make a choice” between Israel and Syria, you can and must oppose both dictatorships.

You also imply that the fact that the lybian government denies many civil rights to its population somehow justifies the fact that Israel denies civil rights to millions of arab refugees.

THIS IS CLEARLY AN INVALID ARGUMENT, COMRADE.

Again, I see no proof of this racial dictatorship ruling Israel from you. That invalidates all of the above.

Bad behaviour does not justify bad behaviour and arab dictatorships do not justify jewish racial dictatorships.

If B is unproven to be related to A, then whether A is bad has no relation on B.

If you want to come into a message board and be taken seriously you have to present valid arguments, not flagrant logical fallacies.

Do you follow your own advice?

 

[Comrade]

...
You are the biggest traitor in the history of the american nation, NATO.

I don't care what your argument is about, but before you ever call NATO AIR a traitor again, you should very well know he is a serving member of the US Armed Forces currently aboard ship and on duty.

That's far more loyalty to his cause than you'll ever prove to yours, Jose.

 

[Comrade]

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

If the West was really commited to introducing democracy in the entire ME (including Palestine) it would have started its democratization plan dismantling its own client state (this does not require military actions just international isolation just like in South Africa.)

Let's put that in haiku:

Spread Democracy?
Well sure but the Jews still vote.
Screw it, let them starve.

You'd think the West would celbrate.


But what the West really want from the arab world is docility towards the jewish racial dictatorship

Not only do you speak for 'the West', but you propagate the same strawman of there being a 'Jewish racial dictatorship'. You lack a mandate to do neither.

and consequently towards itself and don’t think for a second arabs haven’t already realised this. According to NYT columnist Thomas Friedman,

There's another winner for ya! :duh3:

american soldiers are being called “the jews” on the streets of Bhagdad.

If this is not enough to make people understand that the arab people will never accept the western plan “democracy for arabs in Iraq and jewish racism for arabs in Palestine”, nothing will.

You speak for the Arab people as well as 'the West' now? Who exactly are you, God?

So the West’s plan for the Middle East brings the seeds of its own demise.

That sounds so biblical, like saying 'You reap what you sow!'

From our sacrifices today, I see big sunflowers full hope, charity, and freedom!

You see weeds of deceit, lies, and oppression from the same cause.

I wonder where that comes from? I mean personally, what drives you to rail against the revolution which brought you here to discuss your thoughts openly and freely without fear of government retribution on this board, and propagate the tired centuries old hatred of Jews here as if you are some brilliant Socrates of the new age?

And aren't you quite condescending from that self-appointed position too, calling our young serving member a traitor for believing in his mission while you seek to undermine his morale with a tangental and irrelevent discussion over Israel. And understand very clearly that America is one of the only nations on this Earth, where your arguments and accusations against our military, that is, sedition, is simply overlooked as a negative aspect of greater rights for free speech.

...an offence summarily taken care of by corporal punishment in all of the Middle East, EXCEPT ISRAEL.

You speak from a pulpit you'd strip from others.

And this logical inconsistency: “democracy for all but not for our satellite state” will most likely doom the whole democratic experiment.

Hold the phone, Israel is our satellite?

That makes the whole premise of a Zionist-ran conspiracy in control of America at risk, does it not?

Jesus, Jose, pick a damn theory and stick with it!!!

 

[José]

Originally posted by Comrade
You quote me responding to the wrong post, Jose. I can't imagine why you'd do this on purpose other than to decieve others here.

It’s true that your responded to the first post, but the two posts I quoted say exactly the same thing, the steps to be taken to turn Israel (and the rest of Palestine) into single democratic state.

The second post (which I also posted there) is just a more “elaborated” version of the first.

Originally posted by Comrade
Do you understand Jose, how you misrepresent me?

And I omitted the final part of the first post (and the beginning too) because it was irrelevant to the subject we were discussing (the peaceful dismantlement of Israel). As I said before posting them, I didn’t want to annoy people by quoting long posts (they are too long even without that part I omitted)

Come on Comrade, don’t be a sore loser.

You set the rules yourself:

“The only victory that counts is to change someone’s perspective.”

So, by your own definition, I won the debate fair and square.

I proved beyond any reasonable doubt that deep in your heart you know that Israel is not a democratic state but a jew only club.

 

[dilloduck]

It’s true that your responded to the first post, but the two posts I quoted say exactly the same thing, the steps to be taken to turn Israel (and the rest of Palestine) into single democratic state.

The second post (which I also posted there) is just a more “elaborated” version of the first.



And I omitted the final part of the first post (and the beginning too) because it was irrelevant to the subject we were discussing (the peaceful dismantlement of Israel). As I said before posting them, I didn’t want to annoy people by quoting long posts (they are too long even without that part I omitted)

Come on Comrade, don’t be a sore loser.

You set the rules yourself:

“The only victory that counts is to change someone’s perspective.”

So, by your own definition, I won the debate fair and square.

I proved beyond any reasonable doubt that deep in your heart you know that Israel is not a democratic state but a jew only club.

We may get a chance to see how democratically they resolve the settlers rebellion.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Comrade
I don't care what your argument is about, but before you ever call NATO AIR a traitor again, you should very well know he is a serving member of the US Armed Forces currently aboard ship and on duty.
That's far more loyalty to his cause than you'll ever prove to yours, Jose.

Look, I have the greatest respect for NATO.

I feel that inner war I talked about being waged inside him in each one of his posts. He defend the native arab population of Israel against fundamentalist maniacs like ajwps with SUCH A STRENGTH, that I feel he is almost saying:

“Look, the native arab population of Palestine has already suffered too much.

Isn’t it enough that they had to be “moved” to provide space for european settlers??

Do they have to be “moved” again to “redeem” Palestine from subhuman arabs?”

Even if he denies, I know that deep inside, he feels guilty about his support for Israel.

And I tremendously admire him for this. This shows that even though he is a soldier and is consequently, subjected to an enourmous peer pressure to align his sense of morality with the US foreign policy, he somehow was able to summon enough courage and inner strength to keep his moral bearings.

True friends are the ones who have the courage to say the truth, no matter how painful they are.

By supporting Israel (even if it is a reluctant support), NATO is indeed betraying the ideals of freedom and racial equality upon which America was founded.

But this is the least important part of what I’m trying to tell him:

What really matters is that he can stop being a traitor in a heartbeat.

The only thing he has to do is to say no to Israel, say no to legalised racism in Palestine.

If only I could use an imaginary electronic neural device to share with NATO my memories of palestinian refugee camps, if only I could share this personal experience with him DIRECTLY and not through words so he could see a refugee showing me the picture of his home in pre-Israel western Palestine before breaking into tears, if I could do this, there would be no need to call him a traitor because he would immediately recognise himself as such.

I urge NATO to swear upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tiranny over the mind of man, by refusing to be brainwashed by America the Tribe, by fighting the indoctrination he receives in the Army and courageously stand up for the values of America in Palestine.

This is the America that is really worth dying for.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Jose. THe two state solution is all you will get. You will not be allowed to plunder and pillage the nation the jews have created. Of course your country will suck, because your society is backward.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

If only I could use an imaginary electronic neural device to share with NATO my memories of palestinian refugee camps, if only I could share this personal experience with him DIRECTLY and not through words so he could see a refugee showing me the picture of his home in pre-Israel western Palestine before breaking into tears

Assuming the Palestinians had been kicked out by European settlers in 1948, your point may be valid. Unfortunately for you, the Palestinians left because they decided to throw their lot in with the attacking armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq. Their side lost and now the Palestinians have to live with that error in judgement. This, all by itself, makes your rambling completely irrelevant. If Jordan had any decency, they would be the one creating a "one state" solution in Jordan for those poor Palestinian refugees.

Read Israel's Proclamation of Independence and tell us if it sounds like the bad old Arabs were being kicked out:

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions... We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

Contrast that with this quote from Iraqi Prime Minister Muri Said:

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.

If you want to be pissed off at anyone for creating the refugee problem, be pissed off at the Arab nations that invaded Israel and told the Palestinians to leave so they could come back after every Jew had been killed. Oops, one flaw in that plan, the Jews didn't die. Now the Palestinians want a "do over"?

 

[Comrade]

It’s true that your responded to the first post, but the two posts I quoted say exactly the same thing, the steps to be taken to turn Israel (and the rest of Palestine) into single democratic state.

The second post (which I also posted there) is just a more “elaborated” version of the first.



And I omitted the final part of the first post (and the beginning too) because it was irrelevant to the subject we were discussing (the peaceful dismantlement of Israel). As I said before posting them, I didn’t want to annoy people by quoting long posts (they are too long even without that part I omitted)

Come on Comrade, don’t be a sore loser.

You set the rules yourself:

“The only victory that counts is to change someone’s perspective.”

So, by your own definition, I won the debate fair and square.

Whatever Jose!

I proved beyond any reasonable doubt that deep in your heart you know that Israel is not a democratic state but a jew only club.

You spoke for the West, you spoke for the Arabs, and now you speak for my very soul. Jose, you are one outrageous debator.

 

[José]

Originally posted by RWA
Jose. THe two state solution is all YOU will get. YOU will not be allowed to plunder and pillage the nation the jews have created. Of course YOUR country will suck, because YOUR society is backward.

WHOA Avenger....

Even if you searched the entire ME, you probably wouldn’t find a single arab named José.

You’re gonna find a alot of Yussefs but definitely no José, so don’t assume I’m one of them.

 

[José]

Originally posted by HorhayAtAMD
Assuming the Palestinians had been kicked out by European settlers in 1948, your point may be valid.

The zionist vision that gave birth to Israel was a settler-colonist movement from the start (it’s not the only vision of Zionism, contrary to what many people believe).

From the very start the israeli Zionist intention was the same as the israeli Zionist line today: all the land of Eretz Israel is Jewish land; the Pals are squatters with no rights to be there, they have to move over, move out or be “bantustanised” in small patches of land.

The zionist motto show the cruel dehumanization of the native arab population of Palestine: "a land without a ppl for a ppl without a land".

Just listen to our resident Zionists like ajwps and DaTroof today –

"THIS IS OUR LAND, JEWISH LAND, 100%, GOD GAVE IT TO US, THE ARABS HAVE TO CLEAR OUT, GET OUT, TAKE OFF, BE TRANSFERRED".

This is not a new song - it is the same song the israeli Zionists have always sung.

These are the facts...from the very start...it is indisputable, there is no argument against it, none, zero, zip. For the last 20 years the so-called “new Israeli historians” have extensively documented the colonial-settler nature of the Zionist enterprise, an enterprise which from the very beginning envisioned Palestine with no Arabs (or a manageable, subordinated minority of Arabs). It was as clear as day - the land was full of people, who would have to be cleared out to make way for the pseudo jews invaders.

HorhayAtAMD, meet the most famous of all the “new Israeli historians” and his most famous work:

The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, Benny Morris

Pay special attention to:

Chapter 5 – Deciding against a return of refugees, April-December 1948

Chapter 6 – Blocking a return

And also

Chapter 9 – Clearing the borders: expultions and populations transfers, November 1948-1950

 

[José]

Originally posted by HorhayAtAMD
Read Israel's Proclamation of Independence and tell us if it sounds like the bad old Arabs were being kicked out:

Again... read the book by Morris and you will understand that prevent the return is form of expultion. Let's not be childsh here, if you have to leave the US and go to Europe and the US government not only prevent you from returning but also bulldoze your home, it (the US government) becomes the cause of your exile and not your original reason to leave anymore.

And since you seem to like founding documents let me show you the beginning of that same Declaration of Independence and compare it to a much more famous document:

The constitution of the US:

WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense etc... do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Israel’s declaration of independence:

"We declare that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the People's Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the JEWISH STATE, to be called 'Israel.'"

WE THE PEOPLE VS WE THE JEWS

 

[José]

Originally posted by Comrade
You spoke for the West, you spoke for the Arabs, and now you speak for my very soul. Jose, you are one outrageous debator.

It was nice talk to you Comrade.

As I said, your debating skills are simply beyond description but even they can’t help you succesfully defend a racial dictatorship.

I’m gonna leave for some time so others can come here and express different POVs. I have already talked too much anyway.

Six months from now I will return with new threads and comments that will surely set the Israel/Palestine section on fire again.

Just an advice:

When I return, be smart like Zhukov and avoid direct confrontations with José.

It’s good for your health : )

Seeya.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

From the very start the israeli Zionist intention was the same as the israeli Zionist line today: all the land of Eretz Israel is Jewish land; the Pals are squatters with no rights to be there, they have to move over, move out or be “bantustanised” in small patches of land.

You would have a point if there wasn't a single muslim Arab living in Israel today. Too bad there are so too bad you're wrong.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

And since you seem to like founding documents let me show you the beginning of that same Declaration of Independence and compare it to a much more famous document

Since when has anybody ever pretended that Israel had to have the same declaration of independence as the US? That was a nice non-argument.

 

[NATO AIR]

Look, I have the greatest respect for NATO.

I urge NATO to swear upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tiranny over the mind of man, by refusing to be brainwashed by America the Tribe, by fighting the indoctrination he receives in the Army and courageously stand up for the values of America in Palestine.

This is the America that is really worth dying for.

I'm in the Navy. You hijack the tragedy and suffering of the Palestinian people in the refugee camps with your insane push for the death of the Israeli state, peaceful or by more probable means of violence like nuclear weapons. The only peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians will be when the Palestinian people reject terrorists and the Israelis reject land theft.

 

[Comrade]

WHOA Avenger....

Even if you searched the entire ME, you probably wouldn’t find a single arab named José.

You’re gonna find a alot of Yussefs but definitely no José, so don’t assume I’m one of them.

What country are you from, Jose? I'm going to guess Mexico, or maybe The Philipines? Or maybe even Spain.

 

[José]

What country are you from, Jose? I'm going to guess Mexico, or maybe The Philipines? Or maybe even Spain.

Comrade... didn’t you notice I had already said goodbye?

I had even logged out : )

You know, I have been discussing Israel/Palestine for a long time (both rl and on the Internet) and since you asked where I’m from and also as a kind of self-flagelation for having overstepped a bit I’m going to reproduce a “nice” (and funny) description of my country by one of my online interlocutors who had probably run out of arguments.

 

[José]

I'm always amazed by people like Jose who live in countries that are so sick and depraved (Brazil) yet as opposed to looking at what can be done to fix his home, go throwing stones across the ocean.

Tell us all about the slums of Rio Jose where children are murdered in their sleep on dirt beds!!!

Tell us about your socialist President who is pushing for nukes, in a country that is not threatened or surrounded by enemies!!!

Tell us about the incredibly high rate of HIV, the incredibly low rate of literacy and the overall malaise of the typical Brazilian dead ender!!!

Scumbags like you justify the terrorists as long as they kill jews, no matter if it is in Israel, Argentina or France - fuck off !!!

 

[José]

LOL

Nice ad hominem huh?

Or is it a new kind of fallacious argument?

Should I call it “ad patria”? : )

I think I understand his reaction... I guess a brazilian criticizing Israel sounds more or less like an Eskimo critizing Nigeria : )

Ok, now I'm leaving for good.

Seeya tovaritch : )