Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by NATO AIR, Dec 13, 2004.
some good news for once
Posted by NATO Air:
I appreciate the Palestinians sincere attempts at some type of reform. I realize that it's an uphill battle since so many of the constituents have grown up w/ Arafatian diplomacy. That said, here are the parts of the article which I believe indicate just how difficult the reformation of the Palestinian state is going to be ...
"About 52 percent of Palestinians oppose bombings against Israeli targets and consider them harmful to Palestinian interests, compared with 26.9 percent in June, according to a poll"
So up until now 73.1% of the general Palestinian population has thought that blowing up Israeli buses, pizzerias, discoteques, and passover dinners was OK. How do you go from that to living side by side. Like I said .. very difficult. Heck, apparently 48% are still all for martyrdome. Wow, that's lower than the unemployment rate.
"While Palestinians want change and tranquility, the fighting has, if anything, hardened their opinions on the core issues that need to be negotiated with Israel such as Jerusalem and refugees, according to Hisham Ahmed, a political scientist at Bir Zeit University. "People do not want all the losses to be in vain."
This is the core of the problem. Lies told by former Palestinian leaders are now part of the nation's doctrine. THERE WILL NEVER BE A RETURN TO ISRAEL BY ANY "PALESTINIAN" "REFUGEES" !!!! The end !! How stupid would Israel be to allow millions of Arabs/Muslems (How many "Palestinians" now claim to be "refugees" ?! Who knows ?!) to simply take over the country. It would be identity suicide. Israel is making the consessions it's making in order to avoid any unnecessary contact with Arab/Muslems, and yet they want to settle millions of the fuckers in Israel proper. They're out of their bloody gordes. If this is a point that the Palestinians are not willing to forget about completely (F compesation payments to these "refugees" ... did Arab countries make payments to the Jews it booted ?!), I do not see any reason to waste anymore of anyone's time. Build the wall as quickly as possible and disassociate. Jerusalem is another touchy subject. The old city (walled part) is freakin small. Trust me, I lived there. How about if you the Arabs access to their holy shrine as long as they promise to behave up there and not throw rocks down at the Jews praying below ... again. Let's save Jerusalem for a later date if and when the Palestinians prove to have their $%!* together. No more lies and ridiculous promises. Reality must hit home sometime, and now is better than later.
If Arafat has just accepted Barak's offer at Camp David in 2000 none of this would have had to happen... though perhaps sometimes the only way to learn is to do it the hard way. Hopefully both sides have learned something over the past 4 years.
Here's a prediction for you. The "refugee Problem" will be solved by payment. That payment will be made by those willing (The US, Israel) or forced on everyone by the UN. Either way, I really don't feel like picking up the tab for these payments. The second part of my prediction is that the sheer # of false applications will cost billions. It will cause a scandal.
Only time will tell.
The Anglo-American war policy has reached a dead end. They have called up the spirits, and can no longer get rid of them. Our predictions, beginning with Poland, are beginning to be confirmed by a remarkable series of current events. One can only smile when the English and Americans forge plans for the year 2000. They will be happy if they survive until 1950.
Joseph Goebbels, 21, January 1945
Its absolutely inconceivable that the boer people will some day share South Africa with Zulus and Xhosas.
Pieter Botha, last president of SA under apartheid, 1975
"Segregation now! Segregation tomorrow! Segregation forever!"
George Wallace, 1963
So much for "predictions"...
So let me get this straight Jose .. Because some predictions have'nt been correct, all predictions are not ?!? It is this logic that keeps me riveted to my seat. The fact that there will never be a return by "Palestinian" "refugees"
to Israel proper is not really a prediction. It's a fact. What Israeli politician would ever get elected advocating a return of Palestinians to Israel proper ? I know that you will say that the UN will mandate it. The day the UN mandates "Palestinian return", is the day Israel officially cecedes. So as I said .. it's not a prediction, it's a fact. A fact that the Palestinians should get used to and their Arab neighbors should count on. By that I meen that it's high time the Arab neighbors inculcate these Arabs into their societies instead of using them as pawns for over 50 years now.
I have some other one's that really are predictions ...
1) The Palestinian de facto nation, which will remain when the wall is complete and the withdrawl is secure, will fail miserabely as a country. Terrorism will reign supreme and the mortars / rockets will be launched over the wall regularly. These attacks will result in harsh retaliations like this week's Gaza incursion .. and well they should.
2) No Palestinian leader can get elected without continuing to perpetrate upon his people the lie that Jerusalem will be an Arab nation's capital anytime soon and that the "refugees" will be allowed to settle in Israel ever. These lies will catch up with him / her (as if) at the negotiating table. These will be the 2 biggest true obstacles to agreement, and as usual, the Arabs will want to be paid off. Instead of telling them that Jews booted from Arab lands want to return and set up synagogues and overpopulate the native inhabitants, we will pay them.
3) Even after we pay them, it will mean nothing because this has almost nothing to do with Palestinian statehood and almost everything to do w/ Islam. Bush is wrong .. this fight is about Islam. It's the forcing of a stagnated violent religion to get on with it and reform. It will be a long hard challenge in countries where the education of hate has a long history and the normal unemployment rate would get a US President empeached.
I know you don't agree with almost anything I'm saying Jose, but keep this in mind. If not for petrol dollars, Riyad would still be just a bunch of adobe huts in the desert.
That problem (which I agree is untenable) will eventually be solved by compromise/innovation sometime.
You know NATO AIR,
You sound like a puzzle to me...
Its hard to believe that the same poster who speak so forcefully against ethnic cleansings going on around the world can look the other way to what happened and continue to happen in Palestine.
You said you deeply respect and admire the jewish character of Israel.
Lets make a thought experiment:
Lets imagine that ethnic europeans calling themselves ethnic jews fleeing from a conflict abroad started flocking to Maryland, US, and when they finally outnumbered the american population they created a country for jews expelling or not allowing the return of the american population.
Lets imagine Israel had been founded in Maryland instead of Palestine, and you had hundreds of americans uprooted from their places of origin and living in a legal limbo without even the most basic civil right: citizenship.
If this had happened in Maryland I doubt you would come into this message board and say things like:
I deeply respect and admire the jewish character of Maryland.
Theres nothing to respect and admire about the jewish character of Israel NATO.
The jewish character of western Palestine is the direct result of ethnic cleasing... the SAME ethnic cleansing you so courageously denounce in Kosovo and Sudan.
You are trying to make more palatable what amounts to ethnic supremacy, racism, plain and simple.
In the article you posted the author calls hardliners people who oppose the ethnic cleansing of western Palestine and want to see it reversed.
Last time I checked, this was exactly what you advocated in Kosovo and is advocating now in Sudan.
I guess this makes you a hardliner too, so welcome to the club, Nato : )
You are basically dividing ethnic cleansings in two groups:
bad ethnic cleansings (ethnic cleansings that must be resersed): South Africa, Kosovo, Darfur etc etc
good ethnic cleansings (ethnic cleansings that must be enforced): Palestine...
There is no such thing as a good ethnic cleansing, NATO...
The one that occurred in Palestine was accepted by the West but it does not make anymore justifiable.
Either you reject all ethnic cleansings or you accept them all !!!!!
I know whats behind your position. You are desperately trying to align your sense of morality with the american foreign policy so you try to portray Israel as a democracy only tainted by the ocupation of eastern Palestine... as if prior to 67 Israel were a shinning example of democracy.
Well, sorry to break the news to you NATO, but Israel is a jewish supremacist state since the day it was founded in 1948, on the ruins of the arab comunities of western Palestine.
I would like to reproduce for you one of my posts.
I named it the The Inner War because it shows the ethical dilemma faced by americans, who, proud of their nation democratic values, find themselves having to rationalize their nations support for a state conceived and built upon ethnic supremacism.
If you want to see the context in which this message was posted, you can find it here:
The inner war
I know it hurts to hear this truth, but Americanism and israeli Zionism are irreconcilable ideologies. America the Idea was founded on the premise that society should not discriminate people for characteristics they had no control, like race.
At the end of the day, William and ajwps are not so different at all. They are the two faces of the same racist coin.
Israeli Zionism is a mirror image of Nazism:
Germany for aryans.
Israel for jews.
If you hold the truth that all men are created equal to be self-evident, you have a moral duty to stand up for your belief in Palestine and say no to the racist, obscene ideology of supremacist Zionism.
America the Tribe only championed the cause of israeli Zionism because of the historical presence of large and influential jewish and evangelical communities in the US.
And to tell you the truth, this is all this question is about... A conflict between America the Tribe and America the Idea. Both Americas are battling for your heart and mind right now. America the Tribe tells you to say yes to Israel while America the Idea tells you to say no. So you remain in the middle of these two opposite voices, confused, scared, divided, without knowing which America to obey. Its not for me to decide the outcome of this inner war that is being waged inside each one of you. I can only hope America the Idea wins.
When the western press discusses Palestine, it does so using coded language in order to portray jewish racism in a favourable light. We have to decodify certain words first so they can make sense.
Im referring to words and expressions like peace process, moderate palestinian leader, two democratic states living side by side in peace etc etc...
Afer being decodified, the so-called peace process is in fact the surrender process. Surrender to all the things nazi Germany stood for: racial segregation, ethno-religious discrimination.
Call the two state solution whatever you want but, please, dont call it a democratic solution because it foresees the establishment of two ethnic supremacist states in Palestine and democracy based on ethnic hierarchy is the mother of all oxymorons.
After you remove all the sugar coating, the two state solution (which I prefer to call the two nazi state solution) is simply the process of legitimization of the ethnic cleansing of the arab population of western Palestine and the jewish communities in the WB and Gaza.
Two state solution is what our friend William Joyce would like to see in America.
Two state solution is the victory of racism, the triumph of ethnic cleansing over true democracy.
There is only one just, moral, jeffersonian solution for Palestine, NATO:
The peaceful dismantlement of the jewish theocratic state and its replacement by a democratic, secular state in historic Palestine.
Stop trying to reconcile the irreconcilable: modern liberal democracy and jurassic ethnocentricity.
Theres no way to be loyal to both Americas in Palestine, NATO.
You have to choose between America the Tribe and America the Idea.
I know this is a hard decision for any american citizen to take, specially a military man like you who swore loyalty to America the Tribe, but as I said in The inner war, I hope that, in Palestine, youll be brave enough to make the right choice.
The two state solution is what you get when you can't stop bombing innocents.
What do you want, to take over the state the jews created for yourselves, because your own countries suck?
How come arabs left to their own devices can only create shitty countries. WHy must you take other people's?
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