Israel , U.S., and suffering

[godhelpus]

Israeli's have suffered. No doubt about it. say it again, Israeli's have suffered. For all of that suffereing there seems to be a collective wave of thought that has emerged from the isreali people. Its seems to be that because of that suffering they have a right to go about the world and settle scores how they see fit, And to make sure that they can position there people in seats of power around the globe ensuring that international foreign policy is set in a matter that has no regard for anyone except Isreal. Here is a quote that seems to be common.

"In 2003 a young Israeli officer was interviewed on British television and asked about the damage to Palestinian children. The ratio of Palestinians to Israeli injuries was so out of balance. Was this right? "The young officer, a third generation from the time of the Holocaust, said, 'the only authority to what we are doing is the gas chambers.'"

I personally feel for the jews in isreal , and certainly they are entitled to peace for their children. It just seems that too many times they try and take two wrongs to make a right. I also personally believe as do many others , that Isreali intelligence has cultivated many of our politicians and thier own citizens who have become U.S. politicians ( as is evident by how many top ranking U.S. officials hold dual U.S./Isreali citizenship and the power AIPAC seems to hold over our government) To set all their policy to the best interests of Isreal not the United States. While i firmly believe we should look out for the bests interests of our allies, i feel this is a big part of what is leading to the destruction of the United States of America today. I also believe that Palestinian Children As well as any children in the world deserve life and a childhood. I am not solely blaming Isreal for the problems in thier region, I just wish they would err more on the side of life and not make the mistakes of old that saw their own people suffer.

 

[Foxfyre]

Israeli's have suffered. No doubt about it. say it again, Israeli's have suffered. For all of that suffereing there seems to be a collective wave of thought that has emerged from the isreali people. Its seems to be that because of that suffering they have a right to go about the world and settle scores how they see fit, And to make sure that they can position there people in seats of power around the globe ensuring that international foreign policy is set in a matter that has no regard for anyone except Isreal. Here is a quote that seems to be common.

"In 2003 a young Israeli officer was interviewed on British television and asked about the damage to Palestinian children. The ratio of Palestinians to Israeli injuries was so out of balance. Was this right? "The young officer, a third generation from the time of the Holocaust, said, 'the only authority to what we are doing is the gas chambers.'"

I personally feel for the jews in isreal , and certainly they are entitled to peace for their children. It just seems that too many times they try and take two wrongs to make a right. I also personally believe as do many others , that Isreali intelligence has cultivated many of our politicians and thier own citizens who have become U.S. politicians ( as is evident by how many top ranking U.S. officials hold dual U.S./Isreali citizenship and the power AIPAC seems to hold over our government) To set all their policy to the best interests of Isreal not the United States. While i firmly believe we should look out for the bests interests of our allies, i feel this is a big part of what is leading to the destruction of the United States of America today. I also believe that Palestinian Children As well as any children in the world deserve life and a childhood. I am not solely blaming Isreal for the problems in thier region, I just wish they would err more on the side of life and not make the mistakes of old that saw their own people suffer.

There are more than a million, mostly Palestinian Arabs residing with full citizenship in Israel. They are prospering, are not discriminated against except that they can have a deferment from military service if they want it (on the theory that military conflicts will likely be against other Arabs). They have representation on the Knesset.

The other Palestinians would almost certainly be enjoying the same kind of treatment if their leadership was not on the record as intending to wipe Israel off the face of the earth--that includes Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah--and if every concession that Israel has made to the Palestinians had not been rewarded with more suicide bombers and rockets fired indiscriminately into Israeli residential neighborhoods. The anti-Israel world out there demands that Israel make the Palestinians full citizens but relinquish all claim on the land the Palestinians live on. How stupid is that?

Israel can be faulted for overreaction and some of their policy, but how rational can they be expected to be in the face of busloads of school children blown up, devastation in private markets, constant rocket fire? The fact is, the Jews have never had a homeland since the Romans threw them out of Jerusalem, and they have been the most persistently persecuted, maligned, and discriminated people on the face of the Earth throughout their very long history. The UN attempted to rectify that by giving the Jews a tiny plot of land--less land than you find in two New Mexico counties--so that they could for the first time have charge of their own destiny, make their own laws, and live as Jews without fear that their freedoms would be taken away from them. They have been consistently maligned for that too, however.

To fault the Jews for effectively retaliating against Palestinian attacks is as absurd as faulting the police for being more effective retaliating against rioters or other criminals.

The Palestinians intentionally fire their weapons and hide amongst women and children inviting return fire so that they can point to the carnage and claim sympathy from the world. The other Arab countries are more than happy to allow the Palestinians to suffer so they can heap recriminations upon Israel and justify their irrational hatred for Israel.

The fact is that the only people that give a damn about the Palestinians are the Israelis who treat very well those Palestinians who aren't pledged to destroy Israel and who aren't actively engaged in Israel's destruction.

 

[godhelpus]

I am not faulting them for their reaction, but for their overreaction like you have also said. I can only imagine the fine line needed to mount an effective counter attack VS. minimal civilian casulties. It just seems like they do not take those civilian casualties into consideration too often. As a father i cant bear to keep seeing these images of babies and children dead or hurt. I think many times some of the solutions presented to both sides are quickly dismissed as not wanting to give into the other.

I also think that American policy is too heavily swayed by israeli policy. I think it puts the children of the United States right into the line of fire. Sometimes i feel that Isreal feels that they have that right to put Americans in that situation because Americans have lived this protected life and why should Isreali children be the only ones to go through this. It just kind of comes off to me that way sometimes. Again I cant bear to keep seeing these innocent children hurt, Isreali , palestinian , or American.

 

[José]

In other words, you believe in ethnic supremacism in Palestine.

You believe that a group of human beings have the right to deny another group their to live in their homeland, confining them in fenced enclaves.

You believe that a group of human beings, to the extent that they share a common ethnic denominator, are entitled to more rights than any other group who do not belong to the same ethnicity.

I gotta tell you.

I would give my right arm to be able to understand the schizophrenic political thought that rules the mind of the super patriotic american clown.

How can a mentally sane individual support democracy and racial equality in America and jewish racism in Palestine creating dozens of rationalizations to justify that racism?

 

[Shogun]

good luck dude.


few in this crowd believe in anything beyond the rights of israel, right or wrong.

 

[jillian]

good luck dude.


few in this crowd believe in anything beyond the rights of israel, right or wrong.

what a freaking lie... it's that most, thankfully, don't subscribe to your:

Israel sucks/pals good mentality.

But what do I know, I'm just a zionist jew, right?

 

[Shogun]

what a freaking lie... it's that most, thankfully, don't subscribe to your:

Israel sucks/pals good mentality.

But what do I know, I'm just a zionist jew, right?

you tell me... you ARE the new master race and Im just the dirty little antisemite goyim, right?


MOST? do you have evidence of that or did your little circle jerk with dr bitch suffice? Indeed, I defy you to quote me suggesting any such thing.. but, thankfully, more than a few peeps notice your pattern of demonizing anyone critical is israel with a Scarlet A while deflecting everything at arabs.

 

[godhelpus]

In other words, you believe in ethnic supremacism in Palestine.

You believe that a group of human beings have the right to deny another group their to live in their homeland, confining them in fenced enclaves.

You believe that a group of human beings, to the extent that they share a common ethnic denominator, are entitled to more rights than any other group who do not belong to the same ethnicity.

I gotta tell you.

I would give my right arm to be able to understand the schizophrenic political thought that rules the mind of the super patriotic american clown.

How can a mentally sane individual support democracy and racial equality in America and jewish racism in Palestine creating dozens of rationalizations to justify that racism?

i certainly hope your not talking about me, i certinly said nothing even close to the ignorant statement you just made. What i said was that the children of both Isreali and Palastinian children deserve a future.

 

[José]

Originally posted by godhelpus
i certainly hope your not talking about me, i certinly said nothing even close to the ignorant statement you just made. What i said was that the children of both Isreali and Palastinian children deserve a future.

Of course I wasn't referring to you, godhelpus.

The compassionate tone of your post was deeply moving : )

 

[Foxfyre]

The Palestinian refugees left the area voluntarily in advance of intended attacks by Islamic countries determined to eradicate the Jews from the face of the Earth or certainly from the Middle East. They (the refugees) intended to return and occupy Israel once the Jews had been exterminated or driven out. They were foiled when they found out the Jews were not so easily exterminated nor driven out.

The Jews had asked the Palestinians to stay. Those who did dwell peacefully as good Israeli citizens with full citizen rights. There are well over a million of them and there is no problem at all between Arab and Jew there.

The rest do not and will not give their allegiance to Israel but rather give their allegiance to leadership determined to destroy Israel. If Israel vacates the West Bank or Golan Heights or Gaza and leave those areas to the Palestinians, Israel is rewarded with increased terrorist attacks from those areas. Israel builds walls to keep out the bombers, not to keep anybody in. Anybody who wants to leave Israel is entirely free to do so.

And what is overreaction? Was taking out the Taliban in Afghanistan overreaction for the murder to 3000 people in the 9/11 attacks? Do some of you think war has been reduced to a one for one equation? We kill one and you kill one, but it has to be equal? How ignorant is that?

Israel is not initiating attacks against the Palestinians. They do retaliate with significant force when attacked however. If the Palestinians would leave Israel alone or acknowledge Israel's right to exist and denounce terrorism, they would find Israel to be much better friends and neighbors than the Arabs who don't give a damn about the Palestinians and exploit them mercilessly for propaganda purposes.

That is the reality. All that is needed for peace to reign in the Israel/Arab conflict is for the Arabs to stop murdering and trying to murder Israelis.

 

[Shogun]

whatever. I could post three seperate sources conveying the mounting racism in israel but you'd insist it was self defense. Very christian of you, by the way.


Holy SHIT! you mean civilians FLED the wave of an oncoming jewish military force!?!?! no WAY! They OBVIOUSLY gave up their right to the land they had been living on for hundreds of years!

 

[Foxfyre]

whatever. I could post three seperate sources conveying the mounting racism in israel but you'd insist it was self defense. Very christian of you, by the way.


Holy SHIT! you mean civilians FLED the wave of an oncoming jewish military force!?!?! no WAY! They OBVIOUSLY gave up their right to the land they had been living on for hundreds of years!

No darling. They fled the wave of an oncoming ARAB and Egyptian military intent on exterminating the Jews. The only racism demonstrated in Israel is their very wise and necessary policy of retaining a Jewish majority in that tiny country. The minute they relinquish that majority, they lose their country and all the freedoms/protections for Jews built into it and probably lose their lives.

 

[godhelpus]

Yes invading afganistan was an overreaction, shamefully you still believe the fairytale that 14 muslim hijackers took planes and flew them into buildings, oh and world trade center 7 just fell down for no reason.. sorry i forgot that. Oh at least 8 of the dead hijackers are still alive .. shit i forgot that too. and ohh fireman just happened to hear secondary explosions

 

[Shogun]

No darling. They fled the wave of an oncoming ARAB and Egyptian military intent on exterminating the Jews.

INVADING jews, you mean?

the SHOCK! It's almost like civilian populations LOVE standing by the sidelines where they are safe!



The only racism demonstrated in Israel is their very wise and necessary policy of retaining a Jewish majority in that tiny country.


yea, I know it sure was wise how we white people in north america decided it was necessary to maintain control of the US!

Hey, it probably doesnt dawn on you that this was the same excuse for the last mater race to assume it's dominance? naw.. chosen people are immune to racism... despite what is reported in the news!



Racism in Israel on the rise
12.08.07
Association for Civil Rights in Israel publishes annual report; reveals country overwhelmed by racism, restriction of personal freedoms, discrimination, especially towards Israeli-Arabs. Report not surprising, say Arab MKs

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3480345,00.html


you know how much those cats over at YNET hate jews so they were probably just perpetuating some good ole antisemitism...



The minute they relinquish that majority, they lose their country and all the freedoms/protections for Jews built into it and probably lose their lives.

Yup.. thats what Emmet Tills killers thought too. Way to hop on the racist bandwagon though. you probably don't validate the double standard accusation.

 

[godhelpus]

Heres another child dead

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=43844&sectionid=351020202

this killing of children is a disgrace

 

[Shogun]

you are going to realize, dude, that they just don't care.

It's the same apathy. The same human travesty made in rationalized "defense". The same thing that caused the US to enter ww2 because of Japan instead of Germany.


I hope you have a clear spot for an applied Scarlet A, dude. It's a comin'.

 

[godhelpus]

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2816.htm

 

[Shogun]

well dude.. i mean, you can't be using fucked up sources though.



WARNING: Beware the "Voice from the White House"
by jbalazs
Wed May 04, 2005 at 12:07:48 PM PST
I have seen reference occasionally to "news" reports that apparently come from a White House insider. These reports are titled "The Voice of the White House" and are being put out there by TBRNews. The latest installement is all about Gannon (as are many previous postings).

According to TBR News, this "source" is "a reporter with access to the White House and Presidential press briefings." I began reading some of these reports from when they began back in March of 2004 and, while they are entertaining and sometimes convincing, something smelled bad. So I started to dig....

* jbalazs's diary :: ::
*

I think I should first start with TBR News itself. From their website, in the About Us section, the editor calls himself Walter Storch and says that TBR News originally came from the Barnes Review magazine. I have since come to discover, through two sources (one from the CIA and the other from a historical revisionist named Germar Rudolf, that Walter Storch is one of many pseudonyms used by Peter Stahl, a.k.a. Gregory Douglas. So, who is Gregory Douglas?

Well, let's just say I've waded through so many filthy revisionist websites today that I feel almost sick. In essence, it's all about anti-semitism and the holocost was a hoax shit. Regardless, I plugged my nose, took some gravol, and plowed my way through to find some very interesting information.

It appears Gregory Douglas (or Peter Stahl, or Walter Storch, or ....) is a very elusive character. The following are a few of the things written on him:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/4/15748/99064


That last one is no good.

 

[godhelpus]

Hatred is what allowed the Nazis to thrive, survive, and drive across the continent, killing with impunity. Their hatred against anyone who did not fit into their paradigm of the “master race” was fanatical beyond comprehension, leading to the attempted extermination of not only the Jews but the Gypsies, homosexuals, people with disabilities and scores of others who fell into the category of “unter menschen”. The “sub-humans”, individuals that the Nazis deemed unworthy to share the world with, were gathered up, shipped off and slaughtered. Their rights were taken away, subjugated as slave labour they fed the war machine the weapons used to kill other innocent lives until their usefulness wore out due to sickness, exhaustion or through the mere malice of the concentration camp guards who killed with impunity.

While the Holocaust ended in 1945 the lessons learned by the horrors of the hatred perpetrated by Hitler and his henchmen have not been passed down through the generations of surviving Jews into the land that was supposedly created as a haven from another holocaust. According to an article that DesertPeace posted there is a law in the State of Israel making it a criminal offence to call any act of the Israeli government a “Nazi act” of aggression. The most recent outcry coming from the extermination of an entire Palestinian family while they slept in the middle of the night on the 15th of February. Three children and their mother died when the Israeli Air Force used precision munitions to assassinate their father, Ayman Al Fayeq, who was suspected in “acts of terror”.

I was born of Jewish parents and am aware that at anytime I can travel to Israel and claim the “right of return”, but I have not done this nor do I plan to do so: in fact, until my brother, Ishmael ibn Ibrahim is granted the same “right of return”, I shall not set foot in the land that has become a model of Zionist Fascism. I am not constrained by the laws of Israel so I shall say what DesertPeace cannot: the actions of the Israeli government are no better than those of the Third Reich. They use terror tactics to control weaker individuals, they control every avenue of economic advancement of people living within the land who are not Jewish, often preventing them from earning a living by closing the checkpoints that Palestinians must pass through in order to travel from their homes to their places of employments, and they impose punishments upon people without having had the benefit of a trial.

Ayman Al Fayeq and his entire family were slaughtered by the IAF in the middle of the night. How can this possibly be acceptable? Even if Al Fayeq was a terrorist, what could his children have done to warrant being immolated by a bomb in the dark of night? The Nazis did similar things to the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, the Lodz Ghetto, through the travelling Einsatzgruppen, and other terror forces that made the Third Reich notorious for their inhuman treatment of non-Aryans. How is this different from what the Zionist Fascists are doing in Israel?

The land was given to us by God. We cannot divide the land. We must protect Israel. It is very easy to fall upon the old scriptures that promise the land to the children of Israel, forgetting that they immediately fell into disobedience and disobeyed the instructions that the Lord provided for the people before they took possession of the land. Inconvenient, and yet … what does it mean? First, you cannot go back in time and erase the mistakes of two thousand years with genocide today. The argument about not dividing the land that God has given as an inheritance hinges upon the first issue: since this present state of Israel is NOT that which was given to the children of Israel, there is no injunction against giving land to the Palestinians, though I still contend that living together is the best solution.

Defending the land must be proportional to the force being used by the attacker. You do not respond to a stick with snipers, you do not fire artillery at unarmed demonstrators … unless you are in Israel. When Hezbollah launched Katyusha Rockets, weapons that do not have sophisticated navigational equipment and rarely hit their targets with full effect, Israel has regularly responded with precision bombing and artillery far beyond the proportion of the original attack, striking the neighbourhood from which the rockets were launched. Given that the IAF has munitions that are capable of striking within 9.6 metres of the designated target (standard JDAM available for the F-16, used in the slaughter of the Fayeq family) it would seem reasonable that the IAF might start resorting to the "surgical strikes" that the USAF has been employing since the development of these precision guided munitions to such great effect in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq.

If the Israeli government does not want to have their actions and policies likened to those of the Nazis all they have to do is start acting more like humans and less like the monsters that they have modelled themselves after; take the lessons of history and apply them now, before it is too late.

 

[Paulie]

Hatred is what allowed the Nazis to thrive, survive, and drive across the continent, killing with impunity. Their hatred against anyone who did not fit into their paradigm of the “master race” was fanatical beyond comprehension, leading to the attempted extermination of not only the Jews but the Gypsies, homosexuals, people with disabilities and scores of others who fell into the category of “unter menschen”. The “sub-humans”, individuals that the Nazis deemed unworthy to share the world with, were gathered up, shipped off and slaughtered. Their rights were taken away, subjugated as slave labour they fed the war machine the weapons used to kill other innocent lives until their usefulness wore out due to sickness, exhaustion or through the mere malice of the concentration camp guards who killed with impunity.

While the Holocaust ended in 1945 the lessons learned by the horrors of the hatred perpetrated by Hitler and his henchmen have not been passed down through the generations of surviving Jews into the land that was supposedly created as a haven from another holocaust. According to an article that DesertPeace posted there is a law in the State of Israel making it a criminal offence to call any act of the Israeli government a “Nazi act” of aggression. The most recent outcry coming from the extermination of an entire Palestinian family while they slept in the middle of the night on the 15th of February. Three children and their mother died when the Israeli Air Force used precision munitions to assassinate their father, Ayman Al Fayeq, who was suspected in “acts of terror”.

I was born of Jewish parents and am aware that at anytime I can travel to Israel and claim the “right of return”, but I have not done this nor do I plan to do so: in fact, until my brother, Ishmael ibn Ibrahim is granted the same “right of return”, I shall not set foot in the land that has become a model of Zionist Fascism. I am not constrained by the laws of Israel so I shall say what DesertPeace cannot: the actions of the Israeli government are no better than those of the Third Reich. They use terror tactics to control weaker individuals, they control every avenue of economic advancement of people living within the land who are not Jewish, often preventing them from earning a living by closing the checkpoints that Palestinians must pass through in order to travel from their homes to their places of employments, and they impose punishments upon people without having had the benefit of a trial.

Ayman Al Fayeq and his entire family were slaughtered by the IAF in the middle of the night. How can this possibly be acceptable? Even if Al Fayeq was a terrorist, what could his children have done to warrant being immolated by a bomb in the dark of night? The Nazis did similar things to the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, the Lodz Ghetto, through the travelling Einsatzgruppen, and other terror forces that made the Third Reich notorious for their inhuman treatment of non-Aryans. How is this different from what the Zionist Fascists are doing in Israel?

The land was given to us by God. We cannot divide the land. We must protect Israel. It is very easy to fall upon the old scriptures that promise the land to the children of Israel, forgetting that they immediately fell into disobedience and disobeyed the instructions that the Lord provided for the people before they took possession of the land. Inconvenient, and yet … what does it mean? First, you cannot go back in time and erase the mistakes of two thousand years with genocide today. The argument about not dividing the land that God has given as an inheritance hinges upon the first issue: since this present state of Israel is NOT that which was given to the children of Israel, there is no injunction against giving land to the Palestinians, though I still contend that living together is the best solution.

Defending the land must be proportional to the force being used by the attacker. You do not respond to a stick with snipers, you do not fire artillery at unarmed demonstrators … unless you are in Israel. When Hezbollah launched Katyusha Rockets, weapons that do not have sophisticated navigational equipment and rarely hit their targets with full effect, Israel has regularly responded with precision bombing and artillery far beyond the proportion of the original attack, striking the neighbourhood from which the rockets were launched. Given that the IAF has munitions that are capable of striking within 9.6 metres of the designated target (standard JDAM available for the F-16, used in the slaughter of the Fayeq family) it would seem reasonable that the IAF might start resorting to the "surgical strikes" that the USAF has been employing since the development of these precision guided munitions to such great effect in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq.

If the Israeli government does not want to have their actions and policies likened to those of the Nazis all they have to do is start acting more like humans and less like the monsters that they have modelled themselves after; take the lessons of history and apply them now, before it is too late.

I find it a bit odd that after this post, everyone stopped discussing.