Islamic State is driving Muslims from Islam

[Sally]

Hopefully many more Muslims join in and then there will be less killings and more tolerance for other faiths.


THOMAS FRIEDMAN
Published 5:29 pm, Saturday, December 6, 2014


The Islamic State has visibly attracted young Muslims from all over the world to its violent movement to build a caliphate in Iraq and Syria. But here's what's less visible — the online backlash against the Islamic State, also known as ISIS and ISIL, by young Muslims declaring their opposition to rule by Islamic law, or Shariah, and even proudly avowing their atheism. Nadia Oweidat, a senior fellow at theNew America Foundation who tracks how Arab youths use the Internet, says the phenomenon "is mushrooming — the brutality of the Islamic State is exacerbating the issue and even pushing some young Muslims away from Islam."

On Nov. 24, BBC.com published a piece on what was trending on Twitter. It began: "A growing social media conversation in Arabic is calling for the implementation of Shariah, or Islamic law, to be abandoned. Discussing religious law is a sensitive topic in many Muslim countries. But on Twitter, a hashtag which translates as 'why we reject implementing Shariah' has been used 5,000 times in 24 hours. The conversation is mainly taking place in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. The debate is about whether religious law is suitable for the needs of Arab countries and modern legal systems. Dr. Alyaa Gad, an Egyptian doctor living in Switzerland, started the hashtag. 'I have nothing against religion,' she tells BBC Trending, but says she is against 'using it as a political system.'"

The BBC added that "many others joined in the conversation, using the hashtag, listing reasons why Arabs and Muslims should abandon Shariah. 'Because there's not a single positive example of it bringing justice and equality,' one man tweeted. ... A Saudi woman commented: 'By adhering to Shariah we are adhering to inhumane laws. Saudi Arabia is saturated with the blood of those executed by Shariah.'"

Continue reading at:

http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/Thomas-Friedman-Islamic-State-is-drivi

 

[Roudy]

Islamism, like Nazism and Communism is an ideology that is destined to fail. Like the other ideologies, one day it's adherents are going to wake up and realize what Islamism has done to them, and take action.

 

[Coyote]

Sounds like a good debate to be having. Religion and government should be seperate. For those who wish to follow civil aspects of their religious law - they can do so. But otherwise abolish it in a nations legal code.

 

[aris2chat]

Muslims in Canada have condemned IS and it's teaching of jihad.

In France, a mother is suing the country for letting her son travel to turkey to go fight with IS.

IS has been selling children and organs on the black market.

Children have been beheaded for not converting to Islam.

 

[Coyote]

I had not heard about the third item.

 

[aris2chat]

I had not heard about the third item.

and did you hear that 200 subway sandwich places in the US have removed ham and bacon from their menu because of muslims.

The treats, terror, aggression and demand for Islam to dominate and enforce the standards, erroneously, of sharia on everyone is going too far.

All this nonsense is scaring people to capitulate to muslims that misuse their faith to become alphas and everyone else are submissive.

It is not about freedom of religion but making Islam dominant where ever muslims exist, even as a minority. This is not what the faith should be about, but it is what the faith is becoming. It is not about devotion or logic but threats and fear

Islam for some of these groups is not about bringing peace of mind and nearness to allah but about using islam to express misplaced anger and vengeance on others, in the name of allah.

What we see in the news is an abomination, but other muslim are intimidated not to speak against these radical militants.

 

[Coyote]

I had not heard about the third item.

and did you hear that 200 subway sandwich places in the US have removed ham and bacon from their menu because of muslims.

Yes. It has nothing to do with "making demands" or "special treatment". Subways are privately owned business' and they base their menus on the clientel of the neighborhoods in which they are located. If there are high numbers of certain ethnic groups, the menu offerings reflect that. In areas where there are large numbers of Muslims, they will adjust their menu to the desires of their customers. In areas with large Jewish populations they have kosher facilities. No ham. No bacon. No dairy. Because of Jews. It's business. Not special treatment. But is anyone crying that's "creeping kosher"?

The treats, terror, aggression and demand for Islam to dominate and enforce the standards, erroneously, of sharia on everyone is going too far.

On everyone? Where? In the US?

All this nonsense is scaring people to capitulate to muslims that misuse their faith to become alphas and everyone else are submissive.

What nonsense? You mean like the Subways?

It is not about freedom of religion but making Islam dominant where ever muslims exist, even as a minority. This is not what the faith should be about, but it is what the faith is becoming. It is not about devotion or logic but threats and fear

Are you talking about the U.S.?

Islam for some of these groups is not about bringing peace of mind and nearness to allah but about using islam to express misplaced anger and vengeance on others, in the name of allah.

I agree. Every religion has it's intolerant extremists and right now Islam has a bigger than average share.

What we see in the news is an abomination, but other muslim are intimidated not to speak against these radical militants.

Except they have been speaking up and against. This has been brought up over and over and ignored.

 

[aris2chat]

I had not heard about the third item.

and did you hear that 200 subway sandwich places in the US have removed ham and bacon from their menu because of muslims.

Yes. It has nothing to do with "making demands" or "special treatment". Subways are privately owned business' and they base their menus on the clientel of the neighborhoods in which they are located. If there are high numbers of certain ethnic groups, the menu offerings reflect that. In areas where there are large numbers of Muslims, they will adjust their menu to the desires of their customers. In areas with large Jewish populations they have kosher facilities. No ham. No bacon. No dairy. Because of Jews. It's business. Not special treatment. But is anyone crying that's "creeping kosher"?

The treats, terror, aggression and demand for Islam to dominate and enforce the standards, erroneously, of sharia on everyone is going too far.

On everyone? Where? In the US?

All this nonsense is scaring people to capitulate to muslims that misuse their faith to become alphas and everyone else are submissive.

What nonsense? You mean like the Subways?

It is not about freedom of religion but making Islam dominant where ever muslims exist, even as a minority. This is not what the faith should be about, but it is what the faith is becoming. It is not about devotion or logic but threats and fear

Are you talking about the U.S.?

Islam for some of these groups is not about bringing peace of mind and nearness to allah but about using islam to express misplaced anger and vengeance on others, in the name of allah.

I agree. Every religion has it's intolerant extremists and right now Islam has a bigger than average share.

What we see in the news is an abomination, but other muslim are intimidated not to speak against these radical militants.

Except they have been speaking up and against. This has been brought up over and over and ignored.

Subway brand chain of sandwich stores in the US....................YES
This is a company that supplies each store and demands a uniformity. My chiropractor had a subway store for several years.
The menus are supposed to offer the same things in each store. To remove ham and bacon might be encapsulating to the neighborhood but it is not in an muslim country or even Israeli, it is in the US and the owner would have signed an agreement to the menu and to use the products the company supplies. If they want to make it halal or kosher, they should not use the subway brand.

When you walk into a McDonalds, you expect to see a big mac on the menu, not an all vegetarian menu. When Subway advertises bacon and you walk into the local Subway chain you expect to be able to order bacon.
Wendys burgers are made of beef and square in shape. You don't go in to order a burger and expect it to be soy instead, even in India.
You don't go to a brand name steakhouse and expect to find only fish on the menu, or an italian restaurant and find only chinese food.
If people want kosher or halal, they should go to some place that makes that fare, not walk into a pork store with a big fat pig on the sign and a reputation for the best ribs in town.

 

[Coyote]

I had not heard about the third item.

and did you hear that 200 subway sandwich places in the US have removed ham and bacon from their menu because of muslims.

Yes. It has nothing to do with "making demands" or "special treatment". Subways are privately owned business' and they base their menus on the clientel of the neighborhoods in which they are located. If there are high numbers of certain ethnic groups, the menu offerings reflect that. In areas where there are large numbers of Muslims, they will adjust their menu to the desires of their customers. In areas with large Jewish populations they have kosher facilities. No ham. No bacon. No dairy. Because of Jews. It's business. Not special treatment. But is anyone crying that's "creeping kosher"?

The treats, terror, aggression and demand for Islam to dominate and enforce the standards, erroneously, of sharia on everyone is going too far.

On everyone? Where? In the US?

All this nonsense is scaring people to capitulate to muslims that misuse their faith to become alphas and everyone else are submissive.

What nonsense? You mean like the Subways?

It is not about freedom of religion but making Islam dominant where ever muslims exist, even as a minority. This is not what the faith should be about, but it is what the faith is becoming. It is not about devotion or logic but threats and fear

Are you talking about the U.S.?

Islam for some of these groups is not about bringing peace of mind and nearness to allah but about using islam to express misplaced anger and vengeance on others, in the name of allah.

I agree. Every religion has it's intolerant extremists and right now Islam has a bigger than average share.

What we see in the news is an abomination, but other muslim are intimidated not to speak against these radical militants.

Except they have been speaking up and against. This has been brought up over and over and ignored.

Subway brand chain of sandwich stores in the US....................YES
This is a company that supplies each store and demands a uniformity. My chiropractor had a subway store for several years.
The menus are supposed to offer the same things in each store. To remove ham and bacon might be encapsulating to the neighborhood but it is not in an muslim country or even Israeli, it is in the US and the owner would have signed an agreement to the menu and to use the products the company supplies. If they want to make it halal or kosher, they should not use the subway brand.

When you walk into a McDonalds, you expect to see a big mac on the menu, not an all vegetarian menu. When Subway advertises bacon and you walk into the local Subway chain you expect to be able to order bacon.
Wendys burgers are made of beef and square in shape. You don't go in to order a burger and expect it to be soy instead, even in India.
You don't go to a brand name steakhouse and expect to find only fish on the menu, or an italian restaurant and find only chinese food.
If people want kosher or halal, they should go to some place that makes that fare, not walk into a pork store with a big fat pig on the sign and a reputation for the best ribs in town.

Even McDonalds isn't totally uniform. Subway is a franchise and they are allowed some alterations to their menus based on what they think will sell. It's a business decision and YES - it is in the US but the US is comprised of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians and whole variety of flavors. What harm does it do if they have some kosher stores? What harm does it do if they do not serve pork products in some stores? No one complained - no one - until a store in a region with a lot of Muslim customers decided to alter their menu.

Subway ISN"T a pork store. It's a sandwitch franchise that offers a wide variety of stuff including a number of regular items. And, Muslims and Jews are Americans also. To offer Kosher isn't to be Israeli. To offer Halal isn't to be Saudi.

 

[Sally]

I had not heard about the third item.

and did you hear that 200 subway sandwich places in the US have removed ham and bacon from their menu because of muslims.

Yes. It has nothing to do with "making demands" or "special treatment". Subways are privately owned business' and they base their menus on the clientel of the neighborhoods in which they are located. If there are high numbers of certain ethnic groups, the menu offerings reflect that. In areas where there are large numbers of Muslims, they will adjust their menu to the desires of their customers. In areas with large Jewish populations they have kosher facilities. No ham. No bacon. No dairy. Because of Jews. It's business. Not special treatment. But is anyone crying that's "creeping kosher"?

The treats, terror, aggression and demand for Islam to dominate and enforce the standards, erroneously, of sharia on everyone is going too far.

On everyone? Where? In the US?

All this nonsense is scaring people to capitulate to muslims that misuse their faith to become alphas and everyone else are submissive.

What nonsense? You mean like the Subways?

It is not about freedom of religion but making Islam dominant where ever muslims exist, even as a minority. This is not what the faith should be about, but it is what the faith is becoming. It is not about devotion or logic but threats and fear

Are you talking about the U.S.?

Islam for some of these groups is not about bringing peace of mind and nearness to allah but about using islam to express misplaced anger and vengeance on others, in the name of allah.

I agree. Every religion has it's intolerant extremists and right now Islam has a bigger than average share.

What we see in the news is an abomination, but other muslim are intimidated not to speak against these radical militants.

Except they have been speaking up and against. This has been brought up over and over and ignored.

Subway brand chain of sandwich stores in the US....................YES
This is a company that supplies each store and demands a uniformity. My chiropractor had a subway store for several years.
The menus are supposed to offer the same things in each store. To remove ham and bacon might be encapsulating to the neighborhood but it is not in an muslim country or even Israeli, it is in the US and the owner would have signed an agreement to the menu and to use the products the company supplies. If they want to make it halal or kosher, they should not use the subway brand.

When you walk into a McDonalds, you expect to see a big mac on the menu, not an all vegetarian menu. When Subway advertises bacon and you walk into the local Subway chain you expect to be able to order bacon.
Wendys burgers are made of beef and square in shape. You don't go in to order a burger and expect it to be soy instead, even in India.
You don't go to a brand name steakhouse and expect to find only fish on the menu, or an italian restaurant and find only chinese food.
If people want kosher or halal, they should go to some place that makes that fare, not walk into a pork store with a big fat pig on the sign and a reputation for the best ribs in town.

I had not heard about the third item.

and did you hear that 200 subway sandwich places in the US have removed ham and bacon from their menu because of muslims.

Yes. It has nothing to do with "making demands" or "special treatment". Subways are privately owned business' and they base their menus on the clientel of the neighborhoods in which they are located. If there are high numbers of certain ethnic groups, the menu offerings reflect that. In areas where there are large numbers of Muslims, they will adjust their menu to the desires of their customers. In areas with large Jewish populations they have kosher facilities. No ham. No bacon. No dairy. Because of Jews. It's business. Not special treatment. But is anyone crying that's "creeping kosher"?

The treats, terror, aggression and demand for Islam to dominate and enforce the standards, erroneously, of sharia on everyone is going too far.

On everyone? Where? In the US?

All this nonsense is scaring people to capitulate to muslims that misuse their faith to become alphas and everyone else are submissive.

What nonsense? You mean like the Subways?

It is not about freedom of religion but making Islam dominant where ever muslims exist, even as a minority. This is not what the faith should be about, but it is what the faith is becoming. It is not about devotion or logic but threats and fear

Are you talking about the U.S.?

Islam for some of these groups is not about bringing peace of mind and nearness to allah but about using islam to express misplaced anger and vengeance on others, in the name of allah.

I agree. Every religion has it's intolerant extremists and right now Islam has a bigger than average share.

What we see in the news is an abomination, but other muslim are intimidated not to speak against these radical militants.

Except they have been speaking up and against. This has been brought up over and over and ignored.

Subway brand chain of sandwich stores in the US....................YES
This is a company that supplies each store and demands a uniformity. My chiropractor had a subway store for several years.
The menus are supposed to offer the same things in each store. To remove ham and bacon might be encapsulating to the neighborhood but it is not in an muslim country or even Israeli, it is in the US and the owner would have signed an agreement to the menu and to use the products the company supplies. If they want to make it halal or kosher, they should not use the subway brand.

When you walk into a McDonalds, you expect to see a big mac on the menu, not an all vegetarian menu. When Subway advertises bacon and you walk into the local Subway chain you expect to be able to order bacon.
Wendys burgers are made of beef and square in shape. You don't go in to order a burger and expect it to be soy instead, even in India.
You don't go to a brand name steakhouse and expect to find only fish on the menu, or an italian restaurant and find only chinese food.
If people want kosher or halal, they should go to some place that makes that fare, not walk into a pork store with a big fat pig on the sign and a reputation for the best ribs in town.

I had not heard about the third item.

and did you hear that 200 subway sandwich places in the US have removed ham and bacon from their menu because of muslims.

Yes. It has nothing to do with "making demands" or "special treatment". Subways are privately owned business' and they base their menus on the clientel of the neighborhoods in which they are located. If there are high numbers of certain ethnic groups, the menu offerings reflect that. In areas where there are large numbers of Muslims, they will adjust their menu to the desires of their customers. In areas with large Jewish populations they have kosher facilities. No ham. No bacon. No dairy. Because of Jews. It's business. Not special treatment. But is anyone crying that's "creeping kosher"?

The treats, terror, aggression and demand for Islam to dominate and enforce the standards, erroneously, of sharia on everyone is going too far.

On everyone? Where? In the US?

All this nonsense is scaring people to capitulate to muslims that misuse their faith to become alphas and everyone else are submissive.

What nonsense? You mean like the Subways?

It is not about freedom of religion but making Islam dominant where ever muslims exist, even as a minority. This is not what the faith should be about, but it is what the faith is becoming. It is not about devotion or logic but threats and fear

Are you talking about the U.S.?

Islam for some of these groups is not about bringing peace of mind and nearness to allah but about using islam to express misplaced anger and vengeance on others, in the name of allah.

I agree. Every religion has it's intolerant extremists and right now Islam has a bigger than average share.

What we see in the news is an abomination, but other muslim are intimidated not to speak against these radical militants.

Except they have been speaking up and against. This has been brought up over and over and ignored.

Subway brand chain of sandwich stores in the US....................YES
This is a company that supplies each store and demands a uniformity. My chiropractor had a subway store for several years.
The menus are supposed to offer the same things in each store. To remove ham and bacon might be encapsulating to the neighborhood but it is not in an muslim country or even Israeli, it is in the US and the owner would have signed an agreement to the menu and to use the products the company supplies. If they want to make it halal or kosher, they should not use the subway brand.

When you walk into a McDonalds, you expect to see a big mac on the menu, not an all vegetarian menu. When Subway advertises bacon and you walk into the local Subway chain you expect to be able to order bacon.
Wendys burgers are made of beef and square in shape. You don't go in to order a burger and expect it to be soy instead, even in India.
You don't go to a brand name steakhouse and expect to find only fish on the menu, or an italian restaurant and find only chinese food.
If people want kosher or halal, they should go to some place that makes that fare, not walk into a pork store with a big fat pig on the sign and a reputation for the best ribs in town.

I have to agree with you there, Aris. As far as restaurant chain stores are concerned, I haven't seen any group asking for anything special around here -- an area where you have Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Orthodox Jews, etc. I know my local Subway is owned by an Iranian woman, and regardless of whatever religion she happens to be, I don't think she will stop serving bacon and pork just to satisfy the Muslims because then she would lose a lot of business from those who do want these products and customers would be complaining to the main headquarters.. I am sure there are many Muslim-owned restaurants where the clientele can order whatever they want to, just as there always have aways been many Kosher restaurants and now, with people coming from all corners of the world, all those different ethnic restaurants.. Meanwhile, here in the local IHOP, the manager (from India and who has gone on the pilgrimage to Mecca four times) and some of the servers are Muslims, and they don't seem to have a problem working around bacon, sausage or ham. I have seen Muslims gathered there as a group for a birthday or such (some of the women were wearing headscarves), and they didn't seem to have a problem eating there.


Maybe in Europe people have been forced to bend over backwards for them.

The Netherlands Newest Accomplishment

 

[Coyote]

Sally, it's not bending over backwards. If you are a franchise owner, in an area where 90% of your clientele wants a certain thing - you are going to try it and see how it flies in sales. What harm does it do? Subway is even experimenting with Vegan choices in select locations. They have specific stores that are Kosher because they serve a large Orthodox Jewish population. It's not like there isn't another subway a few miles away that folks can go to if they absolutely must have bacon. This isn't something Muslims have "demanded" - it's something the business owners are seeing there might be a need for and enough customers that might like it.

Funny - people complain that it's "just to satifsy Muslims" but they don't even live in those areas nor are they effected. And they don't complain about Kosher Subways being out there "just to satisfy Jews".

Business' can do what they want. They are privately owned.

 

[Sally]

Sally, it's not bending over backwards. If you are a franchise owner, in an area where 90% of your clientele wants a certain thing - you are going to try it and see how it flies in sales. What harm does it do? Subway is even experimenting with Vegan choices in select locations. They have specific stores that are Kosher because they serve a large Orthodox Jewish population. It's not like there isn't another subway a few miles away that folks can go to if they absolutely must have bacon. This isn't something Muslims have "demanded" - it's something the business owners are seeing there might be a need for and enough customers that might like it.

Funny - people complain that it's "just to satifsy Muslims" but they don't even live in those areas nor are they effected. And they don't complain about Kosher Subways being out there "just to satisfy Jews".

Business' can do what they want. They are privately owned.

I think differently from you, Coyote. I think a lot of things, after reading many articles, especially in Europe, are done nowadays to satisfy the Muslims. For the life of me, I can't think of any restaurant chain stores in the Los Angeles area that are Kosher for its customers. The Kosher establishments are individually owned and are not part of any chain as far as I know. In fact, Kosher Jews wouldn't even eat in most delis here even if they make a great pastrami sandwich because these delis are not Kosher. If they want a Kosher deli, they find a place that specializes in Kosher. I'll have to ask someone who lives in West Los Angeles where there are lots of Kosher Jews such as the Robertson-Pico area if they ever heard of a Kosher Subway store. Somehow I doubt it very much.

 

[aris2chat]

I had not heard about the third item.

and did you hear that 200 subway sandwich places in the US have removed ham and bacon from their menu because of muslims.

Yes. It has nothing to do with "making demands" or "special treatment". Subways are privately owned business' and they base their menus on the clientel of the neighborhoods in which they are located. If there are high numbers of certain ethnic groups, the menu offerings reflect that. In areas where there are large numbers of Muslims, they will adjust their menu to the desires of their customers. In areas with large Jewish populations they have kosher facilities. No ham. No bacon. No dairy. Because of Jews. It's business. Not special treatment. But is anyone crying that's "creeping kosher"?

The treats, terror, aggression and demand for Islam to dominate and enforce the standards, erroneously, of sharia on everyone is going too far.

On everyone? Where? In the US?

All this nonsense is scaring people to capitulate to muslims that misuse their faith to become alphas and everyone else are submissive.

What nonsense? You mean like the Subways?

It is not about freedom of religion but making Islam dominant where ever muslims exist, even as a minority. This is not what the faith should be about, but it is what the faith is becoming. It is not about devotion or logic but threats and fear

Are you talking about the U.S.?

Islam for some of these groups is not about bringing peace of mind and nearness to allah but about using islam to express misplaced anger and vengeance on others, in the name of allah.

I agree. Every religion has it's intolerant extremists and right now Islam has a bigger than average share.

What we see in the news is an abomination, but other muslim are intimidated not to speak against these radical militants.

Except they have been speaking up and against. This has been brought up over and over and ignored.

Subway brand chain of sandwich stores in the US....................YES
This is a company that supplies each store and demands a uniformity. My chiropractor had a subway store for several years.
The menus are supposed to offer the same things in each store. To remove ham and bacon might be encapsulating to the neighborhood but it is not in an muslim country or even Israeli, it is in the US and the owner would have signed an agreement to the menu and to use the products the company supplies. If they want to make it halal or kosher, they should not use the subway brand.

When you walk into a McDonalds, you expect to see a big mac on the menu, not an all vegetarian menu. When Subway advertises bacon and you walk into the local Subway chain you expect to be able to order bacon.
Wendys burgers are made of beef and square in shape. You don't go in to order a burger and expect it to be soy instead, even in India.
You don't go to a brand name steakhouse and expect to find only fish on the menu, or an italian restaurant and find only chinese food.
If people want kosher or halal, they should go to some place that makes that fare, not walk into a pork store with a big fat pig on the sign and a reputation for the best ribs in town.

Even McDonalds isn't totally uniform. Subway is a franchise and they are allowed some alterations to their menus based on what they think will sell. It's a business decision and YES - it is in the US but the US is comprised of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians and whole variety of flavors. What harm does it do if they have some kosher stores? What harm does it do if they do not serve pork products in some stores? No one complained - no one - until a store in a region with a lot of Muslim customers decided to alter their menu.

Subway ISN"T a pork store. It's a sandwitch franchise that offers a wide variety of stuff including a number of regular items. And, Muslims and Jews are Americans also. To offer Kosher isn't to be Israeli. To offer Halal isn't to be Saudi.

Muslims complained and pressured the change in 200 subways in the US. If they don't want to eat ham or bacon, fine don't order it. Removing it from the store is arm twisting. In the US there are many choices for food, but removing one type of food from a chain's menu is forcing your wants on the rest of society.
If you need halal or kosher, encourage restaurants to open labeled halal or kosher. Jewish delis and restaurants have done it for decades. You don't force a national chain to create a new menu. If you want to not eat meat, you order from the salad bar, you don't demand all meat be removed from the menu. Even glaut kosher have fare that most people would recognize while still being kosher. They don't advertise pork and beans and then not use any pork.
Places like McDonalds have prepackaged foods to serve hot or cold labeled halal at chains along the highways for people traveling. They are not McDonalds brand and listed on a side menu. You don't make McDonalds remove pork from the menu because you travel a lot and need a place to stop and eat. McDonald does it at courtesy at their rest stops. Too much of the american diet has some form of pork. When jews want sandwiches or burgers, they ask for it without cheese since mixing cheese and meat is not kosher. They don't demand that no cheese is allowed in stores that offer meat.
For people with special heath diets like no gluten, you don't demand all restaurants remove gluten from the menu or sugar for diabetics, or salt for people with heart problems. Some menus offer a few select items for those people, but they don't change the whole menu. It is like offering a child's menu, not every dish is proportioned for children or seniors.
If you are the sole proprietor of a business you can decide what to sell and who to sell to. If you are part of a chain, you keep your service uniform.
Grocery stores don't remove all grain, bread, crackers etc. from the store, they sell gluten free items in a small section of the store. At passover grocery stores don't remove all forbidden items from the store, they set up shelves or tables covered in paper and sell passover items there. They don't demand a special lane of no pork or alcohol items (or dog care items) in a Target store. Let the cashier wear gloves no refuse to do their job because customers have haram items in their cart.
These are erroneous readings of their faith and more cultural than demanded by their religion.
Your faith is a choice you make not something to be impose on other people against their will.

............and evangelical christian does not seek employment in a wiccan store. A muslim does not seek a job working in a nunnery. If you don't like children you don't apply at a nursery school. If you don't like dogs, you don't work in a kennel. If you have bee allergies you don't work as a bee keeper. You make concession, you don't force the world to change to accommodate you and your like or dislikes. I can't stand the smell of cooking oil, fat or strong spices, I don't eat at indian restaurants, I don't force everyone to change for me. I cover my face and splash a light cologne to make smells or avoid traveling in the directions of the smells. I can't walk into a department store by the make up and perfume area, I don't demand they remove those items so I can shop there. I avoid the laundry soap and clearer isles in grocery stores............. or I wear nose plugs for the few minutes I am in the store where smell are strong. I learn to shop online to avoid stores when I have to or order online and just walk in pay and leave. I can't rework the world for my specific needs.

American should not be forced to bend over backwards for Islam, we welcome all faiths but not at the imposition of everyone else. Immigrant melt into the US population, no the other way around.

 

[aris2chat]

Sally, it's not bending over backwards. If you are a franchise owner, in an area where 90% of your clientele wants a certain thing - you are going to try it and see how it flies in sales. What harm does it do? Subway is even experimenting with Vegan choices in select locations. They have specific stores that are Kosher because they serve a large Orthodox Jewish population. It's not like there isn't another subway a few miles away that folks can go to if they absolutely must have bacon. This isn't something Muslims have "demanded" - it's something the business owners are seeing there might be a need for and enough customers that might like it.

Funny - people complain that it's "just to satifsy Muslims" but they don't even live in those areas nor are they effected. And they don't complain about Kosher Subways being out there "just to satisfy Jews".

Business' can do what they want. They are privately owned.

You don't make every book or newspaper braille because of the blind, you make a section of books and papers or offer to order a particular book in braille of audio for them and let them know it will take a few weeks.

Can you imagine an american pork store opening in Saudi because americans live, work or come as tourists to that country? A walled ARAMCO community might have a bar-b-cue and import the pork for a community picnic, but I don't even remember that happening. I visited, I didn't live in those walled towns. Military in the middle east might get special foods shipped in for a holiday but haram foods would not be normal fare in the mess halls there.

When in Rome............... you don't make Rome convert to down town Tehran.

 

[Coyote]

I had not heard about the third item.

and did you hear that 200 subway sandwich places in the US have removed ham and bacon from their menu because of muslims.

Yes. It has nothing to do with "making demands" or "special treatment". Subways are privately owned business' and they base their menus on the clientel of the neighborhoods in which they are located. If there are high numbers of certain ethnic groups, the menu offerings reflect that. In areas where there are large numbers of Muslims, they will adjust their menu to the desires of their customers. In areas with large Jewish populations they have kosher facilities. No ham. No bacon. No dairy. Because of Jews. It's business. Not special treatment. But is anyone crying that's "creeping kosher"?

The treats, terror, aggression and demand for Islam to dominate and enforce the standards, erroneously, of sharia on everyone is going too far.

On everyone? Where? In the US?

All this nonsense is scaring people to capitulate to muslims that misuse their faith to become alphas and everyone else are submissive.

What nonsense? You mean like the Subways?

It is not about freedom of religion but making Islam dominant where ever muslims exist, even as a minority. This is not what the faith should be about, but it is what the faith is becoming. It is not about devotion or logic but threats and fear

Are you talking about the U.S.?

Islam for some of these groups is not about bringing peace of mind and nearness to allah but about using islam to express misplaced anger and vengeance on others, in the name of allah.

I agree. Every religion has it's intolerant extremists and right now Islam has a bigger than average share.

What we see in the news is an abomination, but other muslim are intimidated not to speak against these radical militants.

Except they have been speaking up and against. This has been brought up over and over and ignored.

Subway brand chain of sandwich stores in the US....................YES
This is a company that supplies each store and demands a uniformity. My chiropractor had a subway store for several years.
The menus are supposed to offer the same things in each store. To remove ham and bacon might be encapsulating to the neighborhood but it is not in an muslim country or even Israeli, it is in the US and the owner would have signed an agreement to the menu and to use the products the company supplies. If they want to make it halal or kosher, they should not use the subway brand.

When you walk into a McDonalds, you expect to see a big mac on the menu, not an all vegetarian menu. When Subway advertises bacon and you walk into the local Subway chain you expect to be able to order bacon.
Wendys burgers are made of beef and square in shape. You don't go in to order a burger and expect it to be soy instead, even in India.
You don't go to a brand name steakhouse and expect to find only fish on the menu, or an italian restaurant and find only chinese food.
If people want kosher or halal, they should go to some place that makes that fare, not walk into a pork store with a big fat pig on the sign and a reputation for the best ribs in town.

Even McDonalds isn't totally uniform. Subway is a franchise and they are allowed some alterations to their menus based on what they think will sell. It's a business decision and YES - it is in the US but the US is comprised of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians and whole variety of flavors. What harm does it do if they have some kosher stores? What harm does it do if they do not serve pork products in some stores? No one complained - no one - until a store in a region with a lot of Muslim customers decided to alter their menu.

Subway ISN"T a pork store. It's a sandwitch franchise that offers a wide variety of stuff including a number of regular items. And, Muslims and Jews are Americans also. To offer Kosher isn't to be Israeli. To offer Halal isn't to be Saudi.

Muslims complained and pressured the change in 200 subways in the US. If they don't want to eat ham or bacon, fine don't order it. Removing it from the store is arm twisting. In the US there are many choices for food, but removing one type of food from a chain's menu is forcing your wants on the rest of society.

Do you have any sources to show that is the reason why they changed - that it wasn't simply in response to customer likes/dislikes? Was that any different than it's choice to have Kosher facilities? Is removing dairy products from those stores "arm twisting" Is it any different from Subwa's new experiment in offering Vegan choices?

If you need halal or kosher, encourage restaurants to open labeled halal or kosher. Jewish delis and restaurants have done it for decades. You don't force a national chain to create a new menu. If you want to not eat meat, you order from the salad bar, you don't demand all meat be removed from the menu. Even glaut kosher have fare that most people would recognize while still being kosher. They don't advertise pork and beans and then not use any pork.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. That seems to be exactly what Subway did. Not every subway carries the exact same menu. For example, some Subways in some locations are trying out Vegan choices - that are not available in all it's stores.

According to this article: Subway removes pork from stores after strong demand from Muslims Daily Mail Online they chose to remove based on "customer demand" in those locations in the UK. I should point out that "customer demand" is what drives most marketing decisions, not just the choice to offer Halal or Kosher or Vegan. Customer demand is what drives the Big Mac (and it's corresponding waistline). Activists may try to force healthier choices onto these enterprises but if the store's customers aren't buying it, they won't be selling it for long.

Subway is an international chain. "In India, many franchises substitute lamb and chicken items for beef and pork throughout their menus, and some do not sell any meat products at all. Subway has several kosher franchises that do not carry pork products or serve dairy with meat. In the United Kingdom and Ireland, fewer than 200 out of 1,500 Subway sandwich franchises conform to Muslim dietary restrictions: their meat suppliers are certified halal, and no pork products are used. Instead, those locations use turkey products to substitute for ham and bacon. Halal stores are clearly identified by signs throughout, including on the menu panels and in the front windows." Currently there are NO Halal Subways in the US.

This is what the Subway in India says:
Subway Restaurants International Menu Page
Our goal at each SUBWAY® restaurant is to offer a quality product that is made specific to each individual customers taste. Due to cultural and religious preferences, many SUBWAY® sandwiches that would traditionally be made with beef or pork are made instead with lamb, chicken or turkey, but you can still have a “bahut swaad” (delicious) SUBWAY® sandwich made by a “Sandwichwala” (Sandwich Artist). Lamb pepperoni and salami are popular choices at SUBWAY® restaurants in India. In addition, SUBWAY® restaurants in India feature separate ordering and preparation areas for the comfort of those purchasing vegetarian foods.

Places like McDonalds have prepackaged foods to serve hot or cold labeled halal at chains along the highways for people traveling. They are not McDonalds brand and listed on a side menu. You don't make McDonalds remove pork from the menu because you travel a lot and need a place to stop and eat. McDonald does it at courtesy at their rest stops. Too much of the american diet has some form of pork. When jews want sandwiches or burgers, they ask for it without cheese since mixing cheese and meat is not kosher. They don't demand that no cheese is allowed in stores that offer meat.

McDonalds and Subway are two different entities with two different marketing models. So far, the only ones complaining about the Halal stores are some non-Muslims who aren't even customers in those locations.

For people with special heath diets like no gluten, you don't demand all restaurants remove gluten from the menu or sugar for diabetics, or salt for people with heart problems. Some menus offer a few select items for those people, but they don't change the whole menu. It is like offering a child's menu, not every dish is proportioned for children or seniors.

True, but in each of those cases it's up to each business to decide how to handle it.

If you are the sole proprietor of a business you can decide what to sell and who to sell to. If you are part of a chain, you keep your service uniform.
Grocery stores don't remove all grain, bread, crackers etc. from the store, they sell gluten free items in a small section of the store. At passover grocery stores don't remove all forbidden items from the store, they set up shelves or tables covered in paper and sell passover items there. They don't demand a special lane of no pork or alcohol items (or dog care items) in a Target store. Let the cashier wear gloves no refuse to do their job because customers have haram items in their cart.
These are erroneous readings of their faith and more cultural than demanded by their religion.
Your faith is a choice you make not something to be impose on other people against their will.

Franchises are allowed a degree of latitude depending on each individual business. Quite obviously, given the examples above - there is latitude in Subway's model. Every other example is unique and up to the business owner or franchise operator to decide in accordance with the laws of the nation in which they are operating.

............and evangelical christian does not seek employment in a wiccan store. A muslim does not seek a job working in a nunnery. If you don't like children you don't apply at a nursery school. If you don't like dogs, you don't work in a kennel. If you have bee allergies you don't work as a bee keeper. You make concession, you don't force the world to change to accommodate you and your like or dislikes. I can't stand the smell of cooking oil, fat or strong spices, I don't eat at indian restaurants, I don't force everyone to change for me. I cover my face and splash a light cologne to make smells or avoid traveling in the directions of the smells. I can't walk into a department store by the make up and perfume area, I don't demand they remove those items so I can shop there. I avoid the laundry soap and clearer isles in grocery stores............. or I wear nose plugs for the few minutes I am in the store where smell are strong. I learn to shop online to avoid stores when I have to or order online and just walk in pay and leave. I can't rework the world for my specific needs.

You are mixing apples and oranges here. In the Subway example, we are talking about what CUSTOMERS want in a specific franchise location. In the above, you are talking about a whole lot of different things.

Employment: I agree. If you don't like certain things, you don't go and work where you will be involved with those things. You don't expect employers to accommodate unreasonably.

The other stuff is a matter of personal preferences and sensitivities, but even with that accommodation can be FORCED. For example smoking in public areas.

None of the above have anything to do with a franchise owners individual decision to structure his franchise in such a way as to accommodate the religious dietary laws of his clientel.

American should not be forced to bend over backwards for Islam, we welcome all faiths but not at the imposition of everyone else. Immigrant melt into the US population, no the other way around.

America is not being forced into anything because at this point there aren't even any halal Subways in the US>

All of this brings me to a final question.

Why does this bother you so much?

Subway (and likely other business') have operated kosher facilities for years in response to customer demands in certain communities. No one complained. Ever.
No one said Jews are "forcing" Americans to "bend over backwards" for Judaism. No one is saying anything about "Immigrant melt". They've existed and run successfully serving their Jewish customers without a complaint.

Now, suddenly, there is an uproar because Subway is choosing to make some of it's franchises halal, again, in response to customer demands in certain communities. Muslims are being accused of "forcing" Americans to "bend over backwards" for Islam. They are being accused of not "assimilating" (even though religious dietary law has nothing to do with either immigration or assimilation).

The ultimate irony is that the people in an uproar aren't even their customers and, these 200 halal franchises aren't even in the US.

 

[Coyote]

Sally, it's not bending over backwards. If you are a franchise owner, in an area where 90% of your clientele wants a certain thing - you are going to try it and see how it flies in sales. What harm does it do? Subway is even experimenting with Vegan choices in select locations. They have specific stores that are Kosher because they serve a large Orthodox Jewish population. It's not like there isn't another subway a few miles away that folks can go to if they absolutely must have bacon. This isn't something Muslims have "demanded" - it's something the business owners are seeing there might be a need for and enough customers that might like it.

Funny - people complain that it's "just to satifsy Muslims" but they don't even live in those areas nor are they effected. And they don't complain about Kosher Subways being out there "just to satisfy Jews".

Business' can do what they want. They are privately owned.

You don't make every book or newspaper braille because of the blind, you make a section of books and papers or offer to order a particular book in braille of audio for them and let them know it will take a few weeks.

Again, you are arguing apples and oranges here. No one is making ANYONE do anything they don't want to do. This is a business decision based on profit.

Can you imagine an american pork store opening in Saudi because americans live, work or come as tourists to that country? A walled ARAMCO community might have a bar-b-cue and import the pork for a community picnic, but I don't even remember that happening. I visited, I didn't live in those walled towns. Military in the middle east might get special foods shipped in for a holiday but haram foods would not be normal fare in the mess halls there.

Once again - apples and oranges. Here is the link to McDonalds in Riyadh - Our Food McDonald s KSA They are halal. Most likely - the vast majority of McD's customers are Saudi. I do not know what particular Saudi laws they might have to comply with and if that influences their menu. I would imagine that should there be a sufficient customer base that wanted pork products (and if there was no Saudi law regulating this) - they would supply it in a few franchises. It's a business decision, based on customer demand and compliant with the laws of the country they are operating in.

When in Rome............... you don't make Rome convert to down town Tehran.

Ya. Except no one is "making Rome convert to Tehran". It's just one big strawman argument.

 

[irosie91]

as usual coyote is on to defending imposition of obviously unbalanced Islamic demands. --------and yet another
of those personal experiences that COYOTE will denigrate
as "another one of rosie's stories" Hubby and I eat
"indian"----about once per week. The place in which we
settled a few weeks ago was hindu owned-----but ----as is customary in "INDIAN"------also noted themselves as HALAL---
meaning no pork and the meat purchased from the Halal butcher----
also----no beef (for the sake of Hinduism) Remember fellows------for mixed groups CHICKEN AND LAMB. ------
The place ALSO had hard liquor drinks A veiled "lady" walked in and began YELLING---gesticulating wildly and stomping around------it was DEM BOTTLES that bothered her and led her to act like a mad nut in a restaurant full of people-----I felt like slapping her-------but I did not------she would easily figure out I am a jew----who knew what she had under those black rags. She grabbed her kids and stomped around with one of the kids crying. ---------sheeeeesh

no-----I never saw a jew do that kind of thing over bacon
or the presence of non kosher wine. The sign on the
door did not say ALLAHUAKBAR----it said "halal meat"---
if a sign on a door said "kosher hot dogs" jews would
not get hysterical if the same place served BLT's. In fact
there are such places in my city

 

[irosie91]

Business' can do what they want. They are privately owned.[/QUOTE]


can someone tell me where all them KOSHER SUBWAYS are----????

 

[Coyote]

Go to the Subway website.

 

[irosie91]

Business' can do what they want. They are privately owned.

can someone tell me where all them KOSHER SUBWAYS are----????[/QUOTE]

I googled-----apparently there were some-----but in the whole country----something like four now-------too difficult to be kosher