Islam forbids

[PixieStix]

Here is also, one of the best essays I have read on the subject
Al-Fitnah and "Spreading Mischief"

 

[xotoxi]

Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?

When I am told by someone that I will go to hell for eternity if I do not believe in Jesus, it peaks my curiousity. I wonder: why is going to hell such a big deal?

And it turns out that it is a VERY big deal to the person that believes it.

And to then extrapolate that same damnation to everyone worldwide that does not believe in Jesus...that's just bullshit.

Don't bring up those who strap bombs on and kill people...that is not the issue I want to discuss.

The issue that I am asking you and others to rectify is: WHY IS YOUR RELIGION THE ONLY CORRECT ONE? And WHY IS THE PENALTY FOR NOT BELIEVING IT SO HARSH?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

So how many Muslims living here in the United States, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc. have killed the "unislamic" people here?

Islamic scripture allows believers to undertake jihad if they are moved to


'Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik

Page 602
09.6
“it is offensive to conduct a military expedition against hostile non-Muslims without the caliph’s permission,” but “if there is no caliph, no permission is required.”

Islamic scripture also gives permission to avoid conflict until there numbers are in place

The Ayah says, one Muslim should endure ten disbelievers. Allah abrogated this part later on, but the good news remained. `Abdullah bin Al-Mubarak said that Jarir bin Hazim narrated to them that, Az-Zubayr bin Al-Khirrit narrated to him, from `Ikrimah, from Ibn `Abbas, "When this verse was revealed,


﴿إِن يَكُن مِّنكُمْ عِشْرُونَ صَـبِرُونَ يَغْلِبُواْ مِاْئَتَيْنِ﴾


(If there are twenty steadfast persons among you, they will overcome two hundred...) it became difficult for the Muslims, when Allah commanded that one Muslim is required to endure ten idolators. Soon after, this matter was made easy,


﴿الَـنَ خَفَّفَ اللَّهُ عَنكُمْ﴾


(Now Allah has lightened your (task)), until,


﴿يَغْلِبُواْ مِاْئَتَيْنِ﴾


(they shall overcome two hundred. ..)


Allah lowered the number ﴿of adversaries that Muslims are required to endure﴾, and thus, made the required patience less, compatible to the decrease in numbers.'' Al-Bukhari recorded a similar narration from Ibn Al-Mubarak. Muhammad bin Ishaq recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "When this Ayah was revealed, it was difficult for the Muslims, for they thought it was burdensome since twenty should fight two hundred, and a hundred against a thousand. Allah made this ruling easy for them and abrogated this Ayah with another Ayah,


Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

17.16. And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a definite order (to obey Allâh and be righteous) to those among them [or We (first) increase in number those of its population] who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction.

 

[random3434]

So how many Muslims living here in the United States, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc. have killed the "unislamic" people here?

Islamic scripture allows believers ******************

You still didn't answer my question, just copied and pasted something.


Again, how many Muslims living here in the United States, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc. have killed the "unislamic" people here?

 

[Anguille]

Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?

As for the abortion bombings and doctors murdered. lets compare shall we? How many doctors have been murdered in the last 30 years for preforming abortions? How many abortion clinics or free clinics have been bombed? How many of those acts have been PRAISED by religious leaders of main stream religions?


Now how many Muslims have strapped bombs on and blown themselves up to kill others in the same 30 years? How many car bombs have there been set off by Muslims? How many terror attacks by Muslims? How many women mutilated or stoned or imprisoned for religious beliefs? So on and so on. All just in the last 30 years. And how many Muslim religious leaders have praised these actions and called for MORE?

Like I said above, you hypocrites claim it's just the extremists in your religion who are behind the Christian related violence, yet you claim it's the majority of Muslims behind the violence related to Islamic issues. And of course you always pooh pooh the evidence of centuries of repression and violence perpetrated by the Catholic Church and Protestant sects as well. When are you fools going to get a clue? The problem is fundamentalism and extremism, regardless of which mainstream religion it identifies with.

Oh maybe, you'll never get a clue because you are all extremists yourselves. Your hate mongering gives you away.

 

[xotoxi]

[

quote

=Mr.Fitnah;1341335]



Islams scripture makes no unequivocal pronouncements of gods love for mankind ,Its intolerance for "injustice" goes far beyond matters of conscience and calls muslims to kill for virtually anything they consider "unislamic".[/QUOTE]

So how many Muslims living here in the United States, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc. have killed the "unislamic" people here?

One of my brothers, my father, my mother, three of my cousins, four uncles, my best friend from high school, seven of my neighbors, and the lady who was my baby sitter when I was 3, were all killed in separate incidents by American Muslims.

But I'm sure those were all random acts.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?

When I am told by someone that I will go to hell for eternity if I do not believe in Jesus, it peaks my curiousity. I wonder: why is going to hell such a big deal?

And it turns out that it is a VERY big deal to the person that believes it.

And to then extrapolate that same damnation to everyone worldwide that does not believe in Jesus...that's just bullshit.

Don't bring up those who strap bombs on and kill people...that is not the issue I want to discuss.

The issue that I am asking you and others to rectify is: WHY IS YOUR RELIGION THE ONLY CORRECT ONE? And WHY IS THE PENALTY FOR NOT BELIEVING IT SO HARSH?

Not true, first you make the mistake of claiming something that not all Christians believe to be fact, then you try to use it justify the actual murder of innocents by Islam.

I personally know that there is no lake of Fire and no one will burn anywhere. That is not what will happen. Those found undeserving will be returned to death and will not be receiving a perfect body to live forever in. There is no Hell after the Judgement day. Hell is where Satan rules and that is Earth right now. After Judgement Day it will cease to exist. Satan will be put to death and all his followers will be also.

And I repeat, how in the hell, if you do not believe, can you possibly equate real murder with the belief that AFTER someone dies they will go to Hell? How can you justify any of that? You want to call believers delusional while you make ignorant claims like this?

You do not believe, why do you even care that some delusional person thinks you will go to a lake of non existent Fire? And how in hell can you compare THAT to actual MURDER.

 

[Liability]

Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?

When I am told by someone that I will go to hell for eternity if I do not believe in Jesus, it peaks my curiousity. I wonder: why is going to hell such a big deal?

And it turns out that it is a VERY big deal to the person that believes it.

And to then extrapolate that same damnation to everyone worldwide that does not believe in Jesus...that's just bullshit.

Don't bring up those who strap bombs on and kill people...that is not the issue I want to discuss.

The issue that I am asking you and others to rectify is: WHY IS YOUR RELIGION THE ONLY CORRECT ONE? And WHY IS THE PENALTY FOR NOT BELIEVING IT SO HARSH?

Do you realize that these heart-felt questions and the angst it produces in you could JUST AS READILY be directed at Islam?

For, whether you realize it or not, ISLAM also teaches that the fate of non-believers is a torturous eternal afterlife in PLAIN VIEW of the ones who have achieved Islamic salvation -- where they will laugh at the suffering souls in damnation.

 

[Anguille]

So how many Muslims living here in the United States, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc. have killed the "unislamic" people here?

Islamic scripture allows believers to undertake jihad if they are moved to


'Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik

Page 602
09.6
“it is offensive to conduct a military expedition against hostile non-Muslims without the caliph’s permission,” but “if there is no caliph, no permission is required.”

Islamic scripture also gives permission to avoid conflict until there numbers are in place

The Ayah says, one Muslim should endure ten disbelievers. Allah abrogated this part later on, but the good news remained. `Abdullah bin Al-Mubarak said that Jarir bin Hazim narrated to them that, Az-Zubayr bin Al-Khirrit narrated to him, from `Ikrimah, from Ibn `Abbas, "When this verse was revealed,


﴿إِن يَكُن مِّنكُمْ عِشْرُونَ صَـبِرُونَ يَغْلِبُواْ مِاْئَتَيْنِ﴾


(If there are twenty steadfast persons among you, they will overcome two hundred...) it became difficult for the Muslims, when Allah commanded that one Muslim is required to endure ten idolators. Soon after, this matter was made easy,


﴿الَـنَ خَفَّفَ اللَّهُ عَنكُمْ﴾


(Now Allah has lightened your (task)), until,


﴿يَغْلِبُواْ مِاْئَتَيْنِ﴾


(they shall overcome two hundred. ..)


Allah lowered the number ﴿of adversaries that Muslims are required to endure﴾, and thus, made the required patience less, compatible to the decrease in numbers.'' Al-Bukhari recorded a similar narration from Ibn Al-Mubarak. Muhammad bin Ishaq recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "When this Ayah was revealed, it was difficult for the Muslims, for they thought it was burdensome since twenty should fight two hundred, and a hundred against a thousand. Allah made this ruling easy for them and abrogated this Ayah with another Ayah,


Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

17.16. And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a definite order (to obey Allâh and be righteous) to those among them [or We (first) increase in number those of its population] who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction.

So getting back to what Echo asked, if all you claim is true, explain to me why my Muslim friends have not murdered me for being an atheist?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

[

quote

=Mr.Fitnah;1341335]



Islams scripture makes no unequivocal pronouncements of gods love for mankind ,Its intolerance for "injustice" goes far beyond matters of conscience and calls muslims to kill for virtually anything they consider "unislamic".[/QUOTE]

So how many Muslims living here in the United States, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc. have killed the "unislamic" people here?

Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar
John Allen Muhammad
Naveed Haq
Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad
Sulejmen Talovic
Omeed Aziz Popal
Ismail Yassin Mohamed

The body count is not as of yet complete, nor is the list.

 

[PixieStix]

So how many Muslims living here in the United States, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc. have killed the "unislamic" people here?

Islamic scripture allows believers ******************

You still didn't answer my question, just copied and pasted something.


Again, how many Muslims living here in the United States, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc. have killed the "unislamic" people here?

Not many because we have laws against it. Sharia law is not the law of the land, but if we allow Islamic finance in this country, soon and very soon sharia will take hold in other parts of our culture, much like the Christian culture formed our laws so does Islamic law, AKA sharia make a culture

But more than we are aware of. In my city a few years back, a young girl was murdered by her cousins, for not wanting to marry her other cousin, her mom and dad set it up

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

So getting back to what Echo asked, if all you claim is true, explain to me why my Muslim friends have not murdered me for being an atheist?

You do not have any muslim friends.

33:36.
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

The Prohibition of Being Loyal Friends with Disbelievers


This Ayah discourages and forbids taking the enemies of Islam and its people, such as the People of the Book and the polytheists, as friends. These disbelievers mock the most important acts that any person could ever perform, the honorable, pure acts of Islam which include all types of good for this life and the Hereafter. They mock such acts and make them the subject of jest and play, because this is what these acts represent in their misguided minds and cold hearts. Allah said;
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers


Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,

 

[xotoxi]

Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?

When I am told by someone that I will go to hell for eternity if I do not believe in Jesus, it peaks my curiousity. I wonder: why is going to hell such a big deal?

And it turns out that it is a VERY big deal to the person that believes it.

And to then extrapolate that same damnation to everyone worldwide that does not believe in Jesus...that's just bullshit.

Don't bring up those who strap bombs on and kill people...that is not the issue I want to discuss.

The issue that I am asking you and others to rectify is: WHY IS YOUR RELIGION THE ONLY CORRECT ONE? And WHY IS THE PENALTY FOR NOT BELIEVING IT SO HARSH?

Not true, first you make the mistake of claiming something that not all Christians believe to be fact, then you try to use it justify the actual murder of innocents by Islam.

I personally know that there is no lake of Fire and no one will burn anywhere. That is not what will happen. Those found undeserving will be returned to death and will not be receiving a perfect body to live forever in. There is no Hell after the Judgement day. Hell is where Satan rules and that is Earth right now. After Judgement Day it will cease to exist. Satan will be put to death and all his followers will be also.

And I repeat, how in the hell, if you do not believe, can you possibly equate real murder with the belief that AFTER someone dies they will go to Hell? How can you justify any of that? You want to call believers delusional while you make ignorant claims like this?

You do not believe, why do you even care that some delusional person thinks you will go to a lake of non existent Fire? And how in hell can you compare THAT to actual MURDER.

Thank you for your perspective.

However, what part of...

"Don't bring up those who strap bombs on and kill people...that is not the issue I want to discuss"

...do you not understand??? I am not comparing going to Hell and earth murderers. I told you to drop the murder discussion and focus on Christianity. You gave me your perspective...thank you.

But if you are so curious...I think they are evil murderers.

 

[Anguille]

So how many Muslims living here in the United States, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc. have killed the "unislamic" people here?

Islamic scripture allows believers ******************

You still didn't answer my question, just copied and pasted something.


Again, how many Muslims living here in the United States, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc. have killed the "unislamic" people here?

In fact you could ask how many Muslims anywhere? Very few, because otherwise, seeing as Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and is currently practiced by a huge percentage of the world population, if Muslims were all killing non Muslims, there wouldn't be any non Muslims left by now.

 

[random3434]

Jesus: The Islamic and Christian Views Compared

Muslims, like Christians believe Jesus performed miracles. But these were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things.

"Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic' (5:110).

 

[JenT]

Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?

When I am told by someone that I will go to hell for eternity if I do not believe in Jesus, it peaks my curiousity. I wonder: why is going to hell such a big deal?

And it turns out that it is a VERY big deal to the person that believes it.

And to then extrapolate that same damnation to everyone worldwide that does not believe in Jesus...that's just bullshit.

Don't bring up those who strap bombs on and kill people...that is not the issue I want to discuss.

The issue that I am asking you and others to rectify is: WHY IS YOUR RELIGION THE ONLY CORRECT ONE? And WHY IS THE PENALTY FOR NOT BELIEVING IT SO HARSH?

I believe it is the only correct one because there can only be one, and (if you mean Christian) I believe it on so many levels but mostly because I tasted and saw that it was good. And because all of creation screams that there is a Creator all around me. But mostly because I answered when the Holy Spirit called. I believe He calls all of us. Some of us have walked so far away, it takes some time to backtrack, but He is there, he is waiting. Don't know for how much longer (personally I believe years but nobody knows, could be tomorrow)

Why is the penalty so harsh? Because hell was created for satan. It was never created for people. But so many of us want to follow him there.

I HAVE HOPE that the descriptions of hell are so bad because no words of pain can describe the feeling of loss that will happen when someone realizes Who God is and that they passed up on the chance to be with the Lord for all eternity. I seriously HOPE that's what that's about, but it's not what Christ said so I can't say that. So I guess my answer is, I don't know, Xotoxi. I can see there needed to be a choice but why it has to be so bad to choose opposite of Him, I don't know.

I suppose that's why though. Because it is the opposite of Him.

 

[xotoxi]

Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?

When I am told by someone that I will go to hell for eternity if I do not believe in Jesus, it peaks my curiousity. I wonder: why is going to hell such a big deal?

And it turns out that it is a VERY big deal to the person that believes it.

And to then extrapolate that same damnation to everyone worldwide that does not believe in Jesus...that's just bullshit.

Don't bring up those who strap bombs on and kill people...that is not the issue I want to discuss.

The issue that I am asking you and others to rectify is: WHY IS YOUR RELIGION THE ONLY CORRECT ONE? And WHY IS THE PENALTY FOR NOT BELIEVING IT SO HARSH?

Do you realize that these heart-felt questions and the angst it produces in you could JUST AS READILY be directed at Islam?

Sure...but that was a nice try at diversion.

Why don't you take an attempt at discussing YOUR religion as opposed to someone elses?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Do you realize that these heart-felt questions and the angst it produces in you could JUST AS READILY be directed at Islam?

For, whether you realize it or not, ISLAM also teaches that the fate of non-believers is a torturous eternal afterlife in PLAIN VIEW of the ones who have achieved Islamic salvation -- where they will laugh at the suffering souls in damnation.

In Islam allah actually resides in hell to see to the personal toture of the unbelievers

The Noble Quran : Surat 68
68:44. Then leave Me Alone with such as belie this Qur'ân. We shall punish them gradually from directions they perceive not.

 

[Anguille]

So getting back to what Echo asked, if all you claim is true, explain to me why my Muslim friends have not murdered me for being an atheist?

You do not have any muslim friends.

33:36.
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

The Prohibition of Being Loyal Friends with Disbelievers


This Ayah discourages and forbids taking the enemies of Islam and its people, such as the People of the Book and the polytheists, as friends. These disbelievers mock the most important acts that any person could ever perform, the honorable, pure acts of Islam which include all types of good for this life and the Hereafter. They mock such acts and make them the subject of jest and play, because this is what these acts represent in their misguided minds and cold hearts. Allah said;
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers


Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,

You are spouting gibberish again.

 

[JenT]

Lets get this back on track.
Muslims like to say Islam forbids the killing on innocent people,
Please prove non muslims ( disbelievers) are innocent according to scripture.
This should be easy enough, since so many muslims say it.

I'm so sorry, I derailed the thread