Is this true? If so, why?

[Derideo_Te]

I have. It's simple. Allow a free market to run educational programs and schools in the manner and form each community is willing to support with their voluntary purchasing power. Whether those individual organizations are for profit companies or charity based organizations matters not. This is no different than any other free market where competition provides choice and the impetus to produce an outcome that meets or exceeds the expectations of customers while providing good value for money.

You have yet to tell us exactly why that won't work much less provided us with an alternative plan, or even a defense of the status quo.

The floor is yours.

That is not a viable for profit business plan. That is a pipe dream. No investor is going to put up a single penny in anything that poorly written. Real business plans show projected incomes, overheads and profit projections.

Like I'm going to do a proper full fledged business plan for an internet discussion forum. Are you fucking insane?

The few links provided by other posters are either for 100% technological alternatives or for only targeting the wealthy.

No shit Sherlock. When government has a monopoly on affordable education, only the wealthy can afford to pay twice. Duh.

Your business plan must provide a for profit solution that will meet the needs of every kind of public school in the nation and clearly demonstrate that it will be feasible and profitable within a 5 year horizon in order to obtain any investment capital at all.

I know how a business plan works. I've started two businesses from the ground up.

Still waiting for that critique of a free market approach to education or even a defense of the status quo...

Thank you for admitting that you have absolutely nothing to support your allegation. Have a nice day.

 

[eflatminor]

The onus still remains on you to provide a viable business plan to replace public education with for profit corporations.

I have. It's simple. Allow a free market to run educational programs and schools in the manner and form each community is willing to support with their voluntary purchasing power. Whether those individual organizations are for profit companies or charity based organizations matters not. This is no different than any other free market where competition provides choice and the impetus to produce an outcome that meets or exceeds the expectations of customers while providing good value for money.

You have yet to tell us exactly why that won't work much less provided us with an alternative plan, or even a defense of the status quo.

The floor is yours.

There's a problem with this, what you're suggesting is facsist, it isn't "voluntary." It is much like our current Auto insurance and Health insurance paradigm. What you intend, is you intend to FORCE tax payers to PAY private suppliers of education, to educate their children. You want them to CHOOSE between several options.

How exactly is a free market "fascist"? Can we link you to a dictionary?

I don't intend to force CUSTOMERS to pay for anything. They want their children to get an education outside of the home, they can pay for it.

You STILL want the tax payer to HAVE to pay their annual property tax mills,

Wrong. With a free market based education market, there would be no need for property tax or the inflated rental rates that come with it.

and have it go either toward a private for profit corporation, or to a public sector educational institution.

Wrong again. I'm suggesting no government run schools, no 'public sector' institutions. Only those run for voluntary customers.

Either way, it is going towards CORE.

The federal government has no place in education.

If you believe that CORE is the problem?

Government run schools are the problem. No choice in education is the problem. No impetus on the part of bureaucrats to thrive or keep costs in check...these are the problems. CORE only adds to the central planning nightmare.

Well, then there is no escape from the REAL problem, or from having your money stolen to fund the beast.

The beast can exist at many levels of government. Free markets, free minds. No beast there.

 

[eflatminor]

That is not a viable for profit business plan. That is a pipe dream. No investor is going to put up a single penny in anything that poorly written. Real business plans show projected incomes, overheads and profit projections.

Like I'm going to do a proper full fledged business plan for an internet discussion forum. Are you fucking insane?



No shit Sherlock. When government has a monopoly on affordable education, only the wealthy can afford to pay twice. Duh.

Your business plan must provide a for profit solution that will meet the needs of every kind of public school in the nation and clearly demonstrate that it will be feasible and profitable within a 5 year horizon in order to obtain any investment capital at all.

I know how a business plan works. I've started two businesses from the ground up.

Still waiting for that critique of a free market approach to education or even a defense of the status quo...

Thank you for admitting that you have absolutely nothing to support your allegation. Have a nice day.

Thank you for proving you have no ability to respond with logic, reason or specificity as to why a free market approach to the education market wouldn't work better than the status quo.

Now off you go.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Like I'm going to do a proper full fledged business plan for an internet discussion forum. Are you fucking insane?



No shit Sherlock. When government has a monopoly on affordable education, only the wealthy can afford to pay twice. Duh.



I know how a business plan works. I've started two businesses from the ground up.

Still waiting for that critique of a free market approach to education or even a defense of the status quo...

Thank you for admitting that you have absolutely nothing to support your allegation. Have a nice day.

Thank you for proving you have no ability to respond with logic, reason or specificity as to why a free market approach to the education market wouldn't work better than the status quo.

Now off you go.

Debating 101: When you make an allegation the onus is on you to support it when challenged to do so. You have failed to provide anything that would substantiate that a profit driven school system would work, let alone be an improvement. Hopefully you will have better luck next time.

 

[eflatminor]

Thank you for admitting that you have absolutely nothing to support your allegation. Have a nice day.

Thank you for proving you have no ability to respond with logic, reason or specificity as to why a free market approach to the education market wouldn't work better than the status quo.

Now off you go.

Debating 101: When you make an allegation the onus is on you to support it when challenged to do so. You have failed to provide anything that would substantiate that a profit driven school system would work, let alone be an improvement. Hopefully you will have better luck next time.

Oh, you're back. Hmm. How's that defense of the status quo coming along? Nothing? Color me shocked?

Again, schools could be for profit or charity based, but you keep spouting bullshit about how 'profit driven' systems don't work.

Are you really done or can we look forward to that specificity, logic and reason you central planner nanny state suck ups are so well known for?

 

[DGS49]

In spite of the mountain of criticisms that could be directed at The American Public School System, for most American kids who attend them they provide the OPPORTUNITY to get a pretty damn good education, provided they apply themselves and their parents are engaged.

The proof of this fact is all around us. Regardless of how you measure success, most successful Americans are the product of American public education.

But the American public school system has several major problems, none of which is easily resolved. In no particular order I would say:

All teachers and administrators are government employees. There is a mindset associated with government employees that few of them avoid, and most are not even conscious of. There is a sense of entitlement, there is a sense that failure IS an option, but that you will never have to pay the price. I won't belabor the point. I worked for DoD for 5 years, and although we all considered ourselves Good Public Servants, the overall attitude was a cancer.

Teachers' Unions (unlike in Europe) have taken on the mentality of a labor union. Rather than working with Administration to improve Education, they are concerned with nothing but money, benefits, and minimizing the work and responsibility level of every union member. As a European friend once put it to me, American unions exist for the benefit of the WORST employees, and do nothing to benefit the better employees. Teachers' unions go to bat for the worst teachers, and their main quest is to see to it that their incompetence is never exposed (through quantitative testing of students), or dealt with.

The world of Academe is populated by tens of thousands of mediocre people who consider it a Noble Cause to see that nobody in school is made to feel inferior or wanting. This is why grades are bullshit today (half the class is on the Honor Roll). This is why classes are generally not segregated by ability level (even "Honors" classes are populated by many students whose parents simply complained so much that they were accepted). This is why the Teaching Establishment is so reluctant to place any great weight on SAT's, test scores, and similar quantitative measures - when they were students, their OWN scores were mediocre.

European schools are COMPETITIVE. Only the top ten percent (more or less) ever get into a University, and you can't bullshit your way in, or endow a chair to get in. You have to have the goods. Competition breeds excellence, but our teachers are too focused on avoiding disappointment for those who can't (or don't) compete and win. And to avoid hurting their feelings, they give out bullshit grades, bullshit awards, and put stars on homework that is an embarrassment.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Thank you for proving you have no ability to respond with logic, reason or specificity as to why a free market approach to the education market wouldn't work better than the status quo.

Now off you go.

Debating 101: When you make an allegation the onus is on you to support it when challenged to do so. You have failed to provide anything that would substantiate that a profit driven school system would work, let alone be an improvement. Hopefully you will have better luck next time.

Oh, you're back. Hmm. How's that defense of the status quo coming along? Nothing? Color me shocked?

Again, schools could be for profit or charity based, but you keep spouting bullshit about how 'profit driven' systems don't work.

Are you really done or can we look forward to that specificity, logic and reason you central planner nanny state suck ups are so well known for?

Repeating your one-size-fits-all profit motive fallacy is a waste of time until you can prove that it will work for public education. Obviously you can't or you would have done so by now. That you feel the need to erroneously ascribe positions to me that I have not adopted is yet another sign of the weakness of your argument. In desperation you have finally resorted to name calling.

Given all of the above you have effectively conceded that you have no viable alternative to the status quo and nothing further of value to contribute to this discussion.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Damn right. Why? Choice...choice in your education dollar that only competition can produce. With centrally planned education (local, state and feds working together to screw things up), you get NO choice. The outcome, as always, is crappy results and skyrocketing costs.



Corporations, partnerships, LLCs, or just one guy that owns the operation...I don't care. The point is with a free market in education, you get choice. With choice comes the NECESSITY to produce superior results and to keep costs in check....or you send your kid to another school.

I don't want government bureaucrats to "teach" our kids, why do you?

Government bureaucrats? Your disdain for teachers is noted.

I have no disdain for teachers. They should, and would, thrive in a free market of education...at least the more capable ones would. And, they'd be paid well for their efforts, which is hardly the case today with the ridiculous concept of tenure dominating compensation.

Nice try to put words in my mouth. Fail...again.



Any teacher capable of performing up to the standards required of their paying customers...just like any profession.



They'd respond to the demands of their customers, like any service operation. They'd meet or exceed expectations, provide good value for money, or they'd be replace...again, just like any operation.

Would PS be subsidized by the taxpayer or would the burden fall exclusively on parents of kids attending such an institution of learning..

Different issue. You want to make a case that poor families should receive taxpayer money to pay for their kids education, fine. I'm saying government shouldn't RUN the schools because that takes away competition, consumer choice, the necessity to thrive. What you get, as always, is shitty results and skyrocketing costs...aka, the status quo.

What I'm hearing is one more iteration of "ain't government awful", a poorly thought out and emotional response to a serious problem

Then make the case that despite our spending more per student than just about any other nation, why should we continue to allow unmotivated bureaucrats run the education market. The floor is yours.

I get your ideology. And I understand that the public school system is broken. The answer is not to privatize the system but to improve it. One size does not fit every student - the success of the private school system is the kid must fit the system or out on their ass they go.

Public schools must accept every kid, bright or not, socialized or not, interested in learning or not. Not an easy task and not one which the private sector would likely service. Of course there would be providers who take 'troubled' kids and put them altogether in a contained environment, but rarely does that produce a well educated, socialized adult.

It also has the inherent risk of labeling kids and putting them in a box if they, for example, question authority or have interests which are not congruent with the lesson plan.

All kids need to learn how to read with comprehension, write clearly and compute. They all also need to be socialized and not with the aid of the latest iteration of Soma. The classroom in a public school is ideally a microcosm of society in general, a place where children of different races, religions and intellectual capacity can lean to get along and work together.

Of course that's idealistic, for many reasons that cannot be accomplished. What might be a better way to integrate our kids into a diverse learning environment is to allow them to attend a school structured around their interests and talents.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Public schools also put kids in a box, one 'designed(?)' it seems to make learning distasteful: "Sit still, don't talk, don't touch. don't, don't, don't".

Better our public schools should adopt the Montessori pedagogy at the beginning of their educational career:

Elementary

At age 12 the talents, abilities and interests of the child can be directed into an appropriate curriculum where the skills of reading, writing and computing can be developed further in areas which interest the child.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Years ago we had high school which focused on technology, auto mechanics, printing, woodworking and such. Later there existed Regional Occupational Programs (ROP) within high schools where kids could focus (major in) a wide range of professional and technical areas. One of the best was SCROP (Southern California ROP) in LA County.

I visited SCROP with other LE personal who managed jails, it was an eye opener. Young people from the Hollywood Hills working in class with kids from the hood, both with the same interests. Some learned to be Jet Engine Mechanics and received hands on training an experience at LAX. Other learned drawing an animation at Disney Studios.

 

[Unkotare]

The onus still remains on you to provide a viable business plan to replace public education with for profit corporations.

I have. It's simple. Allow a free market to run educational programs and schools in the manner and form each community is willing to support with their voluntary purchasing power. Whether those individual organizations are for profit companies or charity based organizations matters not. This is no different than any other free market where competition provides choice and the impetus to produce an outcome that meets or exceeds the expectations of customers while providing good value for money.

You have yet to tell us exactly why that won't work much less provided us with an alternative plan, or even a defense of the status quo.

The floor is yours.

That is not a viable for profit business plan. That is a pipe dream. No investor is going to put up a single penny in anything that poorly written. Real business plans show projected incomes, overheads and profit projections. They deal with marketing and take into account factors that might adversely impact the outcome and how they will be addressed and overcome. So far you have done nothing even vaguely resembling a business plan. The few links provided by other posters are either for 100% technological alternatives or for only targeting the wealthy. Your business plan must provide a for profit solution that will meet the needs of every kind of public school in the nation and clearly demonstrate that it will be feasible and profitable within a 5 year horizon in order to obtain any investment capital at all.

You haven't read all the links, have you?

 

[Unkotare]

If there was a real profit to be made in elementary education why has this opportunity never been seriously exploited by corporations before now?

Private primary and secondary schools do quite well financially (or at least the best ones do - you know, competition and all that). And students from all over the world, including a very great many from those countries whose educational systems you admire so much, flock to such schools in the US every year. In fact, there is serious and increasing competition for limited spaces in those schools by families from around the globe seeking to get their children out of the centrally-planned paradise you dream of.

Just thought I'd mention this again.

 

[Unkotare]

Our public secondary schools are mandatory, public, and non-competitive. They are not exactly the best in the world.


Our universities - even the public ones - are ultimately based on a competitive model. They are by far the best in the world.


So..............

Thought I'd mention this again too.

 

[asterism]

Our public secondary schools are mandatory, public, and non-competitive. They are not exactly the best in the world.


Our universities - even the public ones - are ultimately based on a competitive model. They are by far the best in the world.


So..............

Thought I'd mention this again too.

I posted a link to a profitable public company that operates elementary schools. I wonder why it was ignored.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7814447-post53.html

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"The more I read and the more I listen, the more apparent it is that our society suffers from an alarming degree of public ignorance" Sandra Day O'Connor

Retired Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, in Boise, laments 'alarming degree of public ignorance' - KansasCity.com

Try watching or reading

"Waiting for Superman"

They have a nice way of saying that the Teacher Union & the Democrat Party have practiced intellectual pedophilia on our kids for generations

"the educational foundations of our society are presently being eroded by a rising tide of mediocrity that threatens our very future as a Nation and a people" and the statement, "If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nation_at_Risk

That's why Dubya gets assigned a seat in the 9th Circle, he had a chance to reform our educational system, but instead let that murdering scumbag Senator from MA reinforced the Sabotaged Status Quo

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Years ago we had high school which focused on technology, auto mechanics, printing, woodworking and such. Later there existed Regional Occupational Programs (ROP) within high schools where kids could focus (major in) a wide range of professional and technical areas. One of the best was SCROP (Southern California ROP) in LA County.

I visited SCROP with other LE personal who managed jails, it was an eye opener. Young people from the Hollywood Hills working in class with kids from the hood, both with the same interests. Some learned to be Jet Engine Mechanics and received hands on training an experience at LAX. Other learned drawing an animation at Disney Studios.

That's the model that should be started in grade school!

 

[Derideo_Te]

Our public secondary schools are mandatory, public, and non-competitive. They are not exactly the best in the world.


Our universities - even the public ones - are ultimately based on a competitive model. They are by far the best in the world.


So..............

Thought I'd mention this again too.

I posted a link to a profitable public company that operates elementary schools. I wonder why it was ignored.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7814447-post53.html

Because none of your links addressed the question. They are not designed to replace the entire current public school system with a for profit alternative that will meet all of the needs of the existing system. Instead they are either a technological enhancement to existing public schooling and/or focused exclusively on the wealthy.

Eflatminor was claiming that a for profit model was the solution to public schooling. So far no one has been able to provide a viable business plan that establishes how that will work.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Years ago we had high school which focused on technology, auto mechanics, printing, woodworking and such. Later there existed Regional Occupational Programs (ROP) within high schools where kids could focus (major in) a wide range of professional and technical areas. One of the best was SCROP (Southern California ROP) in LA County.

I visited SCROP with other LE personal who managed jails, it was an eye opener. Young people from the Hollywood Hills working in class with kids from the hood, both with the same interests. Some learned to be Jet Engine Mechanics and received hands on training an experience at LAX. Other learned drawing an animation at Disney Studios.

That's the model that should be started in grade school!

Probably not many 8 or 9 year olds are ready to work on jet engines.

See: SoCal ROC - Southern California Regional Occupational Center 310-224-4200

I see they/ve changed the name, but the concept remains the same; go to the link and see what's available today.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Years ago we had high school which focused on technology, auto mechanics, printing, woodworking and such. Later there existed Regional Occupational Programs (ROP) within high schools where kids could focus (major in) a wide range of professional and technical areas. One of the best was SCROP (Southern California ROP) in LA County.

I visited SCROP with other LE personal who managed jails, it was an eye opener. Young people from the Hollywood Hills working in class with kids from the hood, both with the same interests. Some learned to be Jet Engine Mechanics and received hands on training an experience at LAX. Other learned drawing an animation at Disney Studios.

That's the model that should be started in grade school!

Probably not many 8 or 9 year olds are ready to work on jet engines.

See: SoCal ROC - Southern California Regional Occupational Center 310-224-4200

I see they/ve changed the name, but the concept remains the same; go to the link and see what's available today.

That is true but they are fascinated by science and technology. They will spend hours just trying to figure out how to take apart an old PC or printer. They love building robots and getting their hands dirty planting seeds and then watching them grow.

 

[Unkotare]

Thought I'd mention this again too.

I posted a link to a profitable public company that operates elementary schools. I wonder why it was ignored.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7814447-post53.html

Because none of your links addressed the question. They are not designed to replace the entire current public school system with a for profit alternative that will meet all of the needs of the existing system. Instead they are either a technological enhancement to existing public schooling and/or focused exclusively on the wealthy.

Eflatminor was claiming that a for profit model was the solution to public schooling. So far no one has been able to provide a viable business plan that establishes how that will work.

That's it, keep moving those goalposts around. You are a disingenuous interlocutor.