Is the Quran Gods words?

[September]

You seriously need to get it out of your mind that Muhammad "stole" or "plagiarized" from the Bible.

I am absolutely 100% certain that Muhammad stole most of his material from the bible, and most of the rest of it from other sources.

I feel like you are using the word "stole" incorrectly. You can't "steal" history, you can only retell it. You can't "steal" recurring religious motifs, you can only reuse them. You can't "steal" wisdom about human Nature, but you can absorb it and use it in life and pass it down in your own way.

And sometimes, spiritual/ religious culture of one group is absorbed into the spiritual/ religious culture of another group and evolved accordingly.

What, do you think the "Descent of Ishtar" was "stolen" from "Inanna's Descent"? Did the Babylonians "steal" the goddess Ishtar from the Sumerians?

Were the Roman Gods "stolen" from Greece? Minerva and Jupiter "stolen" from Athena and Zeus?

Was the reference to YHWH in his "storm chariot" (which is described as being pulled by four Living creatures) as he soared over the primordial waters, slew a draconic Leviathan, and emerged victorious over the forces of chaos stolen from the Babylonian Enuma Elis where it talks about Marduk in his "storm chariot" pulled by four creatures as he soars through the heavens and does battle and emerges victorious against Tiamat (Goddess of the primordial waters/ primordial chaos/ the Abyss, often described as draconic)? Was the story about YHWH creating the world and bringing Order to Chaos "stolen" from the Enuma Elis where it talks about Marduk bringing Order to Chaos by achieving the Tablet of Destinies and rearranging the cosmos after slaying the chaos goddess Tiamat?

What about the Mesopotamian myths of the storm god Enlil? Enlil was angry with humanity and was about to destroy the world in a flood... a man called Utnapishtim received a divine revelation from the god of wisdom and sorcery- Enki- commanding him to build a giant ship to house his family and animals so that they would survive the coming deluge... Enlil flooded the Earth... and after many storming days and nights Utnapishtim sent out three birds (a dove, a swallow, and a raven) to learn when the waters had receded, and having landed on a mountain in the Middle East and after releasing the ship's inhabitants offered sacrifice to the gods and was rewarded by them? Was that "stolen" to create the story of YHWH growing angry with humanity and destroying the world in a flood, but giving Noah a divine revelation to construct a giant ark to house his family and animals so that they would survive the deluge... and after many storming days and nights sent out two birds (a raven, a dove, and the same dove again) to learn when the waters receded, and having landed on a mountain in the Middle East and after releasing the Ark's inhabitants offered sacrifice to God and was blessed by God who made an epic covenant with him? Well? Was that story "stolen"?

Do you see any connection between Jesus and Appolonius, or even Esklepios or Dionysus? Notice any connection between Abrahamism and Ancient Egypt? Notice any connection between Jesus Christ and Osirus and Horus?

What of Zoroastrianism and Abrahamism? Ahura Mazda and Ahriman/ Angra Mainyu to God and Satan?

You say the Quran "stole" from the Bible. How 'bout you fill me on what you think the Bible "stole" from. ​

 

[Mudda]

The koran is the devil's book.

 

[Dajjal]

You say the Quran "stole" from the Bible. How 'bout you fill me on what you think the Bible "stole" from.

Yes , I think a lot of the bible comes from earlier stories. For example the concept of a lake of fire in hell comes from the Egyptian book of the dead. As for the flood myth it probably comes from 'the epic of Gilgamesh'.

But I am not a bible scholar and you undoubtedly know the bible better than me. I know the Quran better than the bible, because I have been reading the Quran since after the 9/11/01 attack.

 

[Dajjal]

You can't "steal" history, you can only retell it. You can't "steal" recurring religious motifs, you can only reuse them.

To me the old testament stories of the bible are myths, not history. So what are they doing in the Quran as the supposed words of God? I speak of the myths of Noah's ark and Jonah and the whale, and the parting of the red sea, and Moses turning his stick into a snake. I think these stories are Jewish myths, not historical facts.

 

[September]

You can't "steal" history, you can only retell it. You can't "steal" recurring religious motifs, you can only reuse them.

To me the old testament stories of the bible are myths, not history. So what are they doing in the Quran as the supposed words of God? I speak of the myths of Noah's ark and Jonah and the whale, and the parting of the red sea, and Moses turning his stick into a snake. I think these stories are Jewish myths, not historical facts.

I didn't say they were. Immediately after describing how history cannot be "stolen", I wrote:

"You can't "steal" recurring religious motifs, you can only reuse them.

You can't "steal" wisdom about human Nature, but you can absorb it and use it in life and pass it down in your own way.

And sometimes, spiritual/ religious culture of one group is absorbed into the spiritual/ religious culture of another group and evolved accordingly"

You know what a recurring religious motif is right? You know what archetypes are, right? Making use of recurring religious motifs and recurring deific archetypes is not "stealing"

As for the absorbtion of past myths into one's own religious views... it isn't "stealing". I do this all the time in my own spiritual/ religious system. I take from a religion what I find strength, meaning, power and beauty in, and do this with every religion I can. That's what happens when you realize that no single religion has all the answers or culture you seek. I know this and the authors of the Bible knew this. Someday I may even make my spiritual/ religious system an official religion... combining ancient Sumero-Babylonian mythology with Abrahamism, but including culture I have learned from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, traditional witchcraft, Thelema, Order of Nine Angles, Kaballah... and anything else I have found profound spiritual/ religious meaning in.

Is that "stealing"?

No, it's not. It's religion. That's how religion works. That's how countless religions are born and that's how religion evolves.

​

 

[Dajjal]

No, it's not. It's religion. That's how religion works. That's how religion forms and that's how religion evolves.

I do not think Islam can evolve to something better, I think it can only die. Like all the old religions we no longer subscribe to. Like the ancient Egyptian and Greek and Roman beliefs that are now dead in the world.
It is my view that Muhammad created a false religion and he was not a true messenger, therefore Islam too should die out and be forgotten.

 

[Dajjal]

I have picked over the bones of many beliefs, and found most of them wanting. For example I threw down Madam Blavatsky's secret doctrine when I read she said there was an Atlantis under the Atlantic. Because I know the Atlantic was caused by the mid Atlantic fissure pushing the continental plates apart and Europe and America fit perfectly together if you cut them out of an atlas. There is no room for a mid Atlantic sunken city, and in any case we have maps of the sea bed. So the secret doctrine is bunk.
I went to mediums one of which was called Ursula Roberts, and another was called Grace Cook. They both said many beautiful and uplifting things and you can find their teachings on the Internet. But both of them at different times said there were people living on Mars and Venus. This was before the space probes that show there is no life on those planets. So beguiling as their teaching was and no matter how much I wanted to believe the good things they said, I was forced to conclude they too were fakes. So I threw away all my White Eagle books, by Grace Cook and decided they were bunk too.

I still think there probably is a spirit world, but I no longer have any certainty of what it is like, but I am sure it is not like Muhammad's evil rotten hell. I can give up my beliefs for the sake of reason, therefore so can Muslims.

 

[Ancient lion]

Corrupt Pious
Al-Imran (The House of Imran) - Chapter 3: Verse 78

​

"There are some among them who twist their tongues when quoting the Scriptures, so that you may think that [what they say] is from the Scriptures, when it is not from the Scriptures. They say: ‘It is from God”, when it is not from God. Thus, they deliberately say of God what they know to be a lie."

When religious men are corrupt they allow themselves to be used as a tool for the falsification of facts. In this manner, they take advantage of their guise as men of religion. The example employed by the Quran in relation to the people of earlier revelations is well known to us today. They impose on the verses and statements of their own revelations arbitrary interpretations and conclusions, claiming that these represent the precise meaning intended and that, as such, they constitute God's message. In actual fact, however, their conclusions are in sharp conflict with the very essence of Divine faith. They are able to achieve this contortion because the majority of people cannot differentiate between the true essence of faith and the true meaning of these statements on the one hand, and the fabricated conclusions they arbitrarily impose on these same statements on the other.

We are today well aware of such people who are wrongly described as religious. Indeed, they are religious professionals who look upon religion as a profession and who use it in order to satisfy all sorts of prejudice. They do not hesitate to make use of any religious text when it seems to them that by so doing they serve their own material interests. It does not concern them that their arbitrary interpretations of God's revelations contradict the basic principles of faith. They try hard to detect even the slightest hint of linguistic ambiguity in a Quranic verse so that they can endorse any desire, tendency or prejudice which serves their immediate interests.

This sort of corruption is not exclusive to the people of earlier revelations. It is evident in every nation where religious faith has been greatly devalued as a result of the relentless pursuit of trifling worldly gains. It gains currency in any nation where people are so dishonest that they do not hesitate to deliberately and knowingly tell a lie about God and distort His words in order to win favours and satisfy their own perverted desires. Here God warns the Muslim community against falling into this slippery way; a path on which the Children of Israel fell and which led them to be deprived of what they had been entrusted with, namely the leadership of mankind. Compiled From: "In The Shade of The Quran"

 

[Dajjal]

There are some among them who twist their tongues when quoting the Scriptures, so that you may think that [what they say] is from the Scriptures, when it is not from the Scriptures. They say: ‘It is from God”, when it is not from God. Thus, they deliberately say of God what they know to be a lie."

Yes, some people lie about God and I consider it a truly evil thing to do. What is more I am absolutely sure that Muhammad was one of those liars. He even makes an issue of it a number of times in the Quran, and as far as I am concerned he condemns himself out of his own mouth.


4.50 Behold! how they invent a lie against God! but that by itself is a manifest sin!

6.21 Who doth more wrong than he who inventeth a lie against God or rejecteth His signs? But verily the wrong-doers never shall prosper.

10.17 Who doth more wrong than such as forge a lie against God, or deny His Signs? But never will prosper those who sin.

11.18 Who doth more wrong than those who invent a life against God? They will be turned back to the presence of their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord! Behold! the Curse of God is on those who do wrong! -

29.68 And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against God or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?

39.32 Who, then, doth more wrong than one who utters a lie concerning God, and rejects the Truth when it comes to him; is there not in Hell an abode for blasphemers?

61.70 Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against God, even as he is being invited to Islam? And God guides not those who do wrong.

72.5 'But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that untrue against God.

 

[September]

There are some among them who twist their tongues when quoting the Scriptures, so that you may think that [what they say] is from the Scriptures, when it is not from the Scriptures. They say: ‘It is from God”, when it is not from God. Thus, they deliberately say of God what they know to be a lie."

Yes, some people lie about God and I consider it a truly evil thing to do. What is more I am absolutely sure that Muhammad was one of those liars. He even makes an issue of it a number of times in the Quran, and as far as I am concerned he condemns himself out of his own mouth.


4.50 Behold! how they invent a lie against God! but that by itself is a manifest sin!

6.21 Who doth more wrong than he who inventeth a lie against God or rejecteth His signs? But verily the wrong-doers never shall prosper.

10.17 Who doth more wrong than such as forge a lie against God, or deny His Signs? But never will prosper those who sin.

11.18 Who doth more wrong than those who invent a life against God? They will be turned back to the presence of their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord! Behold! the Curse of God is on those who do wrong! -

29.68 And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against God or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?

39.32 Who, then, doth more wrong than one who utters a lie concerning God, and rejects the Truth when it comes to him; is there not in Hell an abode for blasphemers?

61.70 Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against God, even as he is being invited to Islam? And God guides not those who do wrong.

72.5 'But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that untrue against God.

If Muhammad legitimately believed that he was receiving divine revelations, is it really "lying"? After all, he did organize one of the most successful religions of all time, as approximately one in every four and a half people on Earth are Muslim.

​

 

[Dajjal]

If Muhammad legitimately believed that he was receiving divine revelations, is it really "lying"? After all, he did organize one of the most successful religions of all time, as approximately one in every four and a half people on Earth are Muslim

As far as I can see there are three choices.
Muhammad was a true messenger of God, he was a liar, or he was a madman.
From my personal perspective, reading between the lines of the Quran, he knew what he was doing and was very clever, but he lied about getting a message from the angel Gabriel. He did this to manipulate people and control their minds with fear.

 

[Dajjal]

In the Quran Muhammad makes the mistake of confusing the angel Gabriel with the holy spirit. He fails to understand the message in the bible that the Holy Ghost speaks through the mouths of the true prophets and the disciples. In the bible the only message given by Gabriel was to announce the coming of John the Baptist and the coming of Jesus.

 

[indiajo]

Hi hjmick, I did not say I believed in the bible, I said the quran is largely copied from it.

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have common roots.

Yes. Sand roots.

 

[Dajjal]

 

[Dajjal]

 

[Dajjal]

The following passage is from the Quran, sura 27.

If you read it you will see that it says King Solomon could understand birds and ants, they talked and he heard them. This would seem to be a nail in the coffin of the Quran as it is obvious nonsense.

27.16 And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught
the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed
Grace manifest (from God.)"
27.17 And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds,
and they were all kept in order and ranks.
27.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said:
"O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under
foot) without knowing it."
27.19 So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me
that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my
parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me,
by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."
27.20 And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said: "Why is it I see not the
Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?
27.21 "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he
bring me a clear reason (for absence)."
27.22 But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed
(territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with
tidings true.

 

[Political Junky]

The following passage is from the Quran, sura 27.

If you read it you will see that it says King Solomon could understand birds and ants, they talked and he heard them. This would seem to be a nail in the coffin of the Quran as it is obvious nonsense.

27.16 And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught
the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed
Grace manifest (from God.)"
27.17 And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds,
and they were all kept in order and ranks.
27.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said:
"O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under
foot) without knowing it."
27.19 So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me
that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my
parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me,
by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."
27.20 And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said: "Why is it I see not the
Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?
27.21 "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he
bring me a clear reason (for absence)."
27.22 But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed
(territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with
tidings true.

And the Bible says that Jonah spent days in the belly of a whale, and that Eve talked to a snake.

 

[Dajjal]

The following passage is from the Quran, sura 27.

If you read it you will see that it says King Solomon could understand birds and ants, they talked and he heard them. This would seem to be a nail in the coffin of the Quran as it is obvious nonsense.

27.16 And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught
the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed
Grace manifest (from God.)"
27.17 And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds,
and they were all kept in order and ranks.
27.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said:
"O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under
foot) without knowing it."
27.19 So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me
that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my
parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me,
by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."
27.20 And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said: "Why is it I see not the
Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?
27.21 "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he
bring me a clear reason (for absence)."
27.22 But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed
(territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with
tidings true.

And the Bible says that Jonah spent days in the belly of a whale, and that Eve talked to a snake.

Yes, and the Quran repeats those bible myths as being the words of God.

 

[Political Junky]

The following passage is from the Quran, sura 27.

If you read it you will see that it says King Solomon could understand birds and ants, they talked and he heard them. This would seem to be a nail in the coffin of the Quran as it is obvious nonsense.

27.16 And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught
the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed
Grace manifest (from God.)"
27.17 And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds,
and they were all kept in order and ranks.
27.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said:
"O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under
foot) without knowing it."
27.19 So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me
that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my
parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me,
by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."
27.20 And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said: "Why is it I see not the
Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?
27.21 "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he
bring me a clear reason (for absence)."
27.22 But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed
(territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with
tidings true.

And the Bible says that Jonah spent days in the belly of a whale, and that Eve talked to a snake.

Yes, and the Quran repeats those bible myths as being the words of God.

Muslims worship the same God that Christians worship. They have great respect for Jesus and his mother, Mary.

 

[Dajjal]

The following passage is from the Quran, sura 27.

If you read it you will see that it says King Solomon could understand birds and ants, they talked and he heard them. This would seem to be a nail in the coffin of the Quran as it is obvious nonsense.

27.16 And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught
the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed
Grace manifest (from God.)"
27.17 And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds,
and they were all kept in order and ranks.
27.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said:
"O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under
foot) without knowing it."
27.19 So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me
that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my
parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me,
by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."
27.20 And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said: "Why is it I see not the
Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?
27.21 "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he
bring me a clear reason (for absence)."
27.22 But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed
(territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with
tidings true.

And the Bible says that Jonah spent days in the belly of a whale, and that Eve talked to a snake.

Yes, and the Quran repeats those bible myths as being the words of God.

Muslims worship the same God that Christians worship. They have great respect for Jesus and his mother, Mary.

No, they think Jesus was just another messenger whereas Christians think he was part of the trinity.
Incidentally the story of Adam and eve in the Quran is typically vague and it does not actually mention the snake.