Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?

[Sixties Fan]

RE: Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→ Billo_Really, et al,

The short answer is!

There is no proof Hamas organized the protest. Even if they did, you have no right to shoot peaceful protesters.

(COMMENT)

WHEN a peaceful protest becomes whipped-up, turns violent and threatens the integrity of Israel's sovereign territory, THEN it voids its status of protection.

WHEN a peaceful protest is whipped-up, turns violent and becomes threatening as a result of HAMAS malfeasance and intentional influence, THEN it takes on the character of "cover and concealment."

The greater impact is: HAMAS either has governmental control over Gaza or it doesn't. I am glad that you admit that HAMAS is not in control of Gaza...

Most Respectfully,
R

Hamas governs Gaza.

Hamas pays people and their militants to and is responsible for :
Come to the border
Throw rocks, molotov
Plant explosives
Fly incendiary kites into Israel
Breach the border and infiltrate Israel

Build tunnels which go into Israel or Egypt
Illegally obtains pieces which put together make up for the weapons its militants have and have used, like the AK-a47 which was fired into a house a mile away inside Israeli territory.

Hamas is responsible, with UWRA, for the education all people in Gaza receive, which continues to be one of non acceptance of Israel's existence and hatred for Jews. In their textbooks, tv programs, etc.

Yes, Hamas IS in control of Gaza. Not the PA, although it should be Fatah with Abbas who should have the control of it.
Clearly, that will never happen.

 

[RoccoR]

RE Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

This is a serious recognition problem. This type of problem flourishes in countries and populations that are too politically and diplomatically immature to recognize the responsibilities of a

Hamas governs the territory. They are responsible for policing the "protest" AND for keeping the safety of their citizens as their highest priority.

How can they police something that is not illegal?

(COMMENT)

When the crowds and chaos moves to become a threat:

• Chapter I Purposes and Principles --- Article 2 (4), UN Charter: All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

• A/RES/25/2625 - Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (1970)(DoP): Every State has the duty to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. Such a threat or use of force constitutes a violation of international law and the Charter of the United Nations and shall never be employed as a means of settling international issues.
•
•
•
Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat to use - and the use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.
​

This fundamental principle is of such importance and gravity that it is repeated more than once in the DoPs. It answers the question of peace → and for the Middle East → and the solution to the Question of Palestine. But for many a generation in the past, and for those coming in the future → (as my daughter would say) → The Arab Palestinians have seen - unbelieving - their last unicorn. And I think my kids say that because they know that it will take some true magic for them to recapture that which is in the spirit and nature of most cultures to rally in the shadow of adversity and build a'new that is destroyed in a nation. And as my youngest (who is an Aspie) said - "that ain't happening."

( • ∑ • FOR A LAUGH • )

I had to laugh the other day when a very bright young lady said to me: "A two-state solution has about as much of a chance of working - as do - Catholic Gregorian Monks of the Benedictine Seminary have of chanting in the Dome of the Rock."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

This is a serious recognition problem. This type of problem flourishes in countries and populations that are too politically and diplomatically immature to recognize the responsibilities of a

Hamas governs the territory. They are responsible for policing the "protest" AND for keeping the safety of their citizens as their highest priority.

How can they police something that is not illegal?

(COMMENT)

When the crowds and chaos moves to become a threat:

• Chapter I Purposes and Principles --- Article 2 (4), UN Charter: All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

• A/RES/25/2625 - Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (1970)(DoP): Every State has the duty to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. Such a threat or use of force constitutes a violation of international law and the Charter of the United Nations and shall never be employed as a means of settling international issues.
•
•
•
Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat to use - and the use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.
​

This fundamental principle is of such importance and gravity that it is repeated more than once in the DoPs. It answers the question of peace → and for the Middle East → and the solution to the Question of Palestine. But for many a generation in the past, and for those coming in the future → (as my daughter would say) → The Arab Palestinians have seen - unbelieving - their last unicorn. And I think my kids say that because they know that it will take some true magic for them to recapture that which is in the spirit and nature of most cultures to rally in the shadow of adversity and build a'new that is destroyed in a nation. And as my youngest (who is an Aspie) said - "that ain't happening."

( • ∑ • FOR A LAUGH • )

I had to laugh the other day when a very bright young lady said to me: "A two-state solution has about as much of a chance of working - as do - Catholic Gregorian Monks of the Benedictine Seminary have of chanting in the Dome of the Rock."

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel is a law free zone. It is the wild west of the Middle East.

 

[P F Tinmore]

• A/RES/25/2625 - Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (1970)(DoP): Every State has the duty to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. Such a threat or use of force constitutes a violation of international law and the Charter of the United Nations and shall never be employed as a means of settling international issues.

Sounds like Israel. ~ 1948

 

[Shusha]

Israel is a law free zone. It is the wild west of the Middle East.

Oh, the irony. Especially on this thread.

 

[Billo_Really]

Hamas governs the territory. They are responsible for policing the "protest" AND for keeping the safety of their citizens as their highest priority. If Hamas had prevented the protest from turning violent, had prevented people from attempting to breach the boundary, had prevented people from bringing weapons and using them, had prevented tires from being burned as a smokescreen, had prevented children from attending -- there would have been no cause for Israel to respond.

Not only did Hamas FAIL to do any of these things -- they actively incited civilians to act violently, provided information on how to best breach the border and reach Israel's nearby towns, PAID civilians to act violently, and burned the boundary crossing through which aide is delivered. THEN they refused to accept urgently needed medical supplies.

Your attempt to claim that Hamas is innocent of wrong-doing is simply ridiculous.

Get this through your fucking head, you started the violence, not them. Burning tires is not a violent act. Walking into this bullshit buffer zone ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY, does not give you the right to kill them. Neither is flying a fire kite, or throwing a rock. They don't justify deliberate murder on your part.

And speaking of this alleged violence you keep pushing, why is it, there is no video of someone being shot while throwing a rock or flying a kite? Why are all the videos on TV and YouTube, showing someone just standing there and all of a sudden, they are shot! Why is UN representatives in the area, Amnesty International and the Red Cross, all saying you are shooting peaceful protesters? These are completely separate organizations all saying the same thing. Which is also backed up by videos of the massacre.

And why is it, people from these organizations who were there, the boots on the ground while it was happening, say there's no evidence of Hamas organizing this protest? Even if they did, that still doesn't give you the right to kill them. You're ridiculous! You're absolutely ridiculous!

You don't deserve a country!

 

[fncceo]

You don't deserve a country!

You were saying?

 

[Billo_Really]

I'm sure You'll try to convince even Hamas that the protests are "peaceful":

I'm just going by reports from people who were there. The UN, AI and ICRC all say you are shooting peaceful protesters. And there are no videos backing up your claims.

 

[Billo_Really]

RE: Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→ Billo_Really, et al,

The short answer is!


(COMMENT)

WHEN a peaceful protest becomes whipped-up, turns violent and threatens the integrity of Israel's sovereign territory, THEN it voids its status of protection.

WHEN a peaceful protest is whipped-up, turns violent and becomes threatening as a result of HAMAS malfeasance and intentional influence, THEN it takes on the character of "cover and concealment."

The greater impact is: HAMAS either has governmental control over Gaza or it doesn't. I am glad that you admit that HAMAS is not in control of Gaza...

Most Respectfully,
R

Do you really think someone throwing a rock, is a threat to Israeli sovereignty?

 

[Billo_Really]

Um. The same way all nations police protests. Wow. This whole "government" thing really is hard for you, isn't it?

You police protests in your own country, not someone else's.

And if you think protesting is a capital offense, you are really disturbed.

 

[Andylusion]

Your post amounts to:

Principle #1 -- If you are attacked you are an idiot not to shoot back.

Principle #2 -- Only direct threats to your life permit lethal force.

Principle #3 -- Israel has a policy of shooting all Palestinians based solely on their "Palestinianness".


I agree with your Principle #1. It is the foundation of the moral and legal idea of self-defense. If someone attacks you, you are an idiot not to shoot back. So the dispute we would have is whether or not Israel is "really" being attacked.

You are not being attacked if no one is hurt, injured or killed. You are not being attacked if your border fence is on someone else's property. You are not being attacked, if you have a buffer zone that is on someone else's property. Burning a tire, is not an attack. A peaceful protest, is not an attack. Throwing a rock, is not a threat to your life, or your fence.

Snipers shooting people in cold blood, is an attack. Drones dropping fire bombs on tents, is an attack. Shooting tear gas at babies, is an attack. Shooting people fishing and farming, is an attack. Collectively punishing 1.5 million people, is an attack.

I agree somewhat less in your Principle #2. I believe it is permissible to use force to protect not only direct, immediate threats to one's own life, but also to protect and defend other's lives and against threats to other's lives. So the dispute we would have is whether there is a credible threat to Israeli lives.

Wrong! It has to be an imminent threat to your life, before deadly force is permissible. Making up bullshit reasons to kill people, is just pure evil. You make such a fine German.

There is also the argument that it is legally and morally permissible to defend one's sovereign territory from an invader. You seem to believe that Gaza has every right to not only defend itself from an invader ("occupier"). Israel should have the same rights, but you persist in saying that "occupiers" have no right to defend themselves. Which is bullshit.

You are not defending yourself when you occupy someone else's property. You are initiating the violence.

Your Principle #3 is just an immoral demonization of Israel. And a blatant rejection of reality. Israel has done an exceptional job of being extremely precise (not perfect) of only killing those who pose an immediate threat to life or to sovereignty.

Is a guy in a wheel chair a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty? Is an 8 month old baby, a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty? Is someone fishing or farming, a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty?

Just shut up. You are so full of crap. We've pointed out a dozen times, if you are stupid enough to bring a child into a military area, where people are throwing pipe bombs, then it's you. No excuses. Sorry, keep talking and keep being wrong.

Even rodents take their young away from danger, not towards it. If you have less morals than a rodent, then you deserve to die.

Let us all just ignore him. Nothing better when dealing with a bully.

Works for me.

 

[rylah]

I'm sure You'll try to convince even Hamas that the protests are "peaceful":

I'm just going by reports from people who were there. The UN, AI and ICRC all say you are shooting peaceful protesters. And there are no videos backing up your claims.

Well if you're religious about calling blue as green,
then don't tell me You care about facts.

 

[Billo_Really]

Hamas governs Gaza.

Hamas pays people and their militants to and is responsible for :
Come to the border
Throw rocks, molotov
Plant explosives
Fly incendiary kites into Israel
Breach the border and infiltrate Israel

Build tunnels which go into Israel or Egypt
Illegally obtains pieces which put together make up for the weapons its militants have and have used, like the AK-a47 which was fired into a house a mile away inside Israeli territory.

Hamas is responsible, with UWRA, for the education all people in Gaza receive, which continues to be one of non acceptance of Israel's existence and hatred for Jews. In their textbooks, tv programs, etc.

Yes, Hamas IS in control of Gaza. Not the PA, although it should be Fatah with Abbas who should have the control of it.
Clearly, that will never happen.

Sorry, you're the ones shooting people in cold blood. That is your fault, not Hamas.

 

[Andylusion]

Pathetic Billo, who said YOU deserve to die on this thread?

We have witnessed many times how you change what people have said to suit what you want people to believe.

Give me the post where anyone said YOU deserved to die.

tick tock

It was a post you were responding to by Andylusion.

Do you remember this?

Pointing out truth, apparently is "bullying" now, according to the left.

You take your kids into a war zone, and then cry if they die.... someone points out that people with morals, and some amount of dignity, do not do this.... "You are bullying me!".... wow.

 

[Billo_Really]

You were saying?

You got a point?

 

[Andylusion]

Pathetic Billo, who said YOU deserve to die on this thread?

We have witnessed many times how you change what people have said to suit what you want people to believe.

Give me the post where anyone said YOU deserved to die.

tick tock

It was a post you were responding to by Andylusion.

Do you remember this?

Deal with Andylusion's wishes then.

Did Andy mean you, as in Billo, or did Andy refer to those attempting to breach the borders and kill Israelis?

Now, do not get confused by both.

You are not important at all for anyone to wish dead. As long as you are not attempting to breach any country's sovereignty and attempting to kill its citizens. Any country.

And the military of any of those countries will take care of you if you ever attempt anything like that, as so many Hamas operatives have.

I never once suggested, or even hinted that I "wish" people were dead.

Ironic, given the fact the people at the boarder openly said they wish the people on the other side were dead......

My suggestion is, don't go to a border, in a military controlled area, and attack military personnel.

If you do.... then yes you deserve to die. Don't do that. Then you won't deserve what you get.

My 'wish' is that they would live in peace, and stop being lower than animals, by bringing children into dangerous areas.

 

[Billo_Really]

Works for me.

That's because you're a pussy!

 

[Andylusion]

RE Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

This is a serious recognition problem. This type of problem flourishes in countries and populations that are too politically and diplomatically immature to recognize the responsibilities of a

Hamas governs the territory. They are responsible for policing the "protest" AND for keeping the safety of their citizens as their highest priority.

How can they police something that is not illegal?

(COMMENT)

When the crowds and chaos moves to become a threat:

• Chapter I Purposes and Principles --- Article 2 (4), UN Charter: All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

• A/RES/25/2625 - Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (1970)(DoP): Every State has the duty to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. Such a threat or use of force constitutes a violation of international law and the Charter of the United Nations and shall never be employed as a means of settling international issues.
•
•
•
Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat to use - and the use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.
​

This fundamental principle is of such importance and gravity that it is repeated more than once in the DoPs. It answers the question of peace → and for the Middle East → and the solution to the Question of Palestine. But for many a generation in the past, and for those coming in the future → (as my daughter would say) → The Arab Palestinians have seen - unbelieving - their last unicorn. And I think my kids say that because they know that it will take some true magic for them to recapture that which is in the spirit and nature of most cultures to rally in the shadow of adversity and build a'new that is destroyed in a nation. And as my youngest (who is an Aspie) said - "that ain't happening."

( • ∑ • FOR A LAUGH • )

I had to laugh the other day when a very bright young lady said to me: "A two-state solution has about as much of a chance of working - as do - Catholic Gregorian Monks of the Benedictine Seminary have of chanting in the Dome of the Rock."

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel is a law free zone. It is the wild west of the Middle East.

If that was even remotely true, Jews would not being still migrating there regularly. In fact, most of the people on the other side of the border would not being trying to get there either.

Ridiculous comment.

 

[Billo_Really]

Well if you're religious about calling blue as green,
then don't tell me You care about facts.

You really love playing make believe?

 

[Andylusion]

Works for me.

That's because you're a pussy!

Says trash boy, that is an evil supporter of terrorism. Yeah, you of all people would know a pussy when you see one.... likely all your friends, and your mirror fit that description.