Is Drilling equivalent to Welfare?

[jreeves]

Don't you think Iraq was the biggest part of that?

Absolutely not, military spending has continued to shrink while social spending has outgrown the economy by 14% over the last 50 years. Hence, why the dollar is losing value is directly related to the expansion of social programs since LBJ.

 

[Gunny]

I have been thinking about the price of oil, and the whimpering from the republicans and others. Oil prices are driven by supply, demand, and competition. Demand is driven by lifestyle. Now if a women cannot make a mistake and welfare participants cannot make a mistake then Americans who have made bad decisions regarding energy should suffer the same social darwinistic plight. So I guess I don't understand why republicans are blaming drilling, aka ruining our planet, for their own bad decisions.

Just as republicans and others complain about taxes, shouldn't citizens of the world complain about wasteful lifestyles that have the potential to ruin mother earth? It would seem from a moral point of view to be a fair conclusion. So again let me repeat my question, if we are irresponsible with energy then why the complaints? Didn't we create this situations? Answers welcome.

The flaw here is you are attempting to compare a lifestyle that not a one of us was not born into, and is a collective, world-wide style of living based on dependence on fossil fuels with individual decisions that can be made to alter one's lifestyle at the individual level.

We are given no choice as to the former, but we have a choice as to the latter. The former is not a result of Republican/conservative policies. It's a result of Mankind's lifestyle. The latter is a result of liberal policy.

In other words .... try again.

 

[Yurt]

RT SGT opines



How hypocritical of YOU to complain about his socialism when you are the economic creature of socialism.

When have you ever survived by capitalism RETIRED SGT GNY?

You were a beneficiary of military industrial socialism when you were in the military, and you are benefitting from that same socialism now, too.

Your every check is socialism writ large, sport.

Unlike many of us who actually had to deal with the visicitudes of a captialist economy, you don't..

actually, we have a capitalist economy and a rebublican government...the latter can levy taxes to support a military that keeps the economy free. i suggest a quick study on how this country runs before you rail someone for being a hypocrite, when he has done nothing but patriotic service to this country which the republican form of government deemed important enough to levy taxes for.

 

[Chris]

The flaw here is you are attempting to compare a lifestyle that not a one of us was not born into, and is a collective, world-wide style of living based on dependence on fossil fuels with individual decisions that can be made to alter one's lifestyle at the individual level.

We are given no choice as to the former, but we have a choice as to the latter. The former is not a result of Republican/conservative policies. It's a result of Mankind's lifestyle. The latter is a result of liberal policy.

In other words .... try again.

How much is your government retirement check each month?

 

[Yurt]

what is it with people any gunny's or sargent's military service and retirement? are you actually saying that a republican form of government cannot offer a salary, benefits, including retirement, to people who want to serve in the military? pfft

 

[midcan5]

The 87 year old guy would have run out money long ago unless he were extremely wealthy. Irrelevant argument. SS is a great thing and it is socialistic.

GunnyL, You were not born into wasting energy, that is a decision you have made by your lifestyle. As much as I enjoy car travel in America I have never been dependent on a car. Just like many who think the problem is because of circumstances, you too excuse your (ours as a nation) bad decisions. Of course corporate America loves you for it.

We are really a plutocracy, it will be interesting how much that will change after Obama is elected?

Military spending is absurd. We could destroy the world with ease but notice with all that power we cannot always control nations, Iraq, so corporations can exploit it - Oh, sorry, forgot Halliburton, et al.

World Military Spending - Global Issues
NationMaster - Expenditures > Dollar figure (most recent) by country


A vote for McCain is a vote against the fundamental principle of America, the right of the individual to lead their life without the government interfering.

 

[Gunny]

How much is your government retirement check each month?

what is it with people any gunny's or sargent's military service and retirement? are you actually saying that a republican form of government cannot offer a salary, benefits, including retirement, to people who want to serve in the military? pfft

'Tis a simple answer. He is going to try and gloss over the fact that I earned a retirement check that happens to be from the US government and try and sell it as some kind of government subsidy. Another member tried to drag up the same crap as well.

Surprised?

I sold my services to the government for a price, and like any other corporation, it offered retirement benefits as a means of securing those services for as long as it did. And unlike the government, I fulfilled my end of the bargain with 20 years of faithful service while it is busily trying to rewrite my entitlements as we speak.

There is also the fact that I paid taxes on my income while I was on active duty, and I am taxed on my retirement income.

Anyone attempting to twist that into some kind of handout is full of shit, and I challenge any one of them to go take the same "handout" from the nearest Marine Corps recruiter. Bearing in mind of course, that a handout is something for nothing.

I only ask that they DO film it. When you get your ass off the bus and fly onto those yellow footprints, I want documented evidence when you tell that Hat you get a handout and don't have to work for your pay and it's just a handout.

Or you can explain it to your OIC when they drop you from a 46 onto a gulf oil platform in the dark with orders to secure it by whatever means necessary. I'm sure he'll understand.

 

[Chris]

'Tis a simple answer. He is going to try and gloss over the fact that I earned a retirement check that happens to be from the US government and try and sell it as some kind of government subsidy. Another member tried to drag up the same crap as well.

Surprised?

I sold my services to the government for a price, and like any other corporation, it offered retirement benefits as a means of securing those services for as long as it did. And unlike the government, I fulfilled my end of the bargain with 20 years of faithful service while it is busily trying to rewrite my entitlements as we speak.

There is also the fact that I paid taxes on my income while I was on active duty, and I am taxed on my retirement income.

Anyone attempting to twist that into some kind of handout is full of shit, and I challenge any one of them to go take the same "handout" from the nearest Marine Corps recruiter. Bearing in mind of course, that a handout is something for nothing.

I only ask that they DO film it. When you get your ass off the bus and fly onto those yellow footprints, I want documented evidence when you tell that Hat you get a handout and don't have to work for your pay and it's just a handout.

Or you can explain it to your OIC when they drop you from a 46 onto a gulf oil platform in the dark with orders to secure it by whatever means necessary. I'm sure he'll understand.

I hear you, but I have worked my entire life without getting a government check. If I live to be 70, maybe I will get one.

 

[Gunny]

I hear you, but I have worked my entire life without getting a government check. If I live to be 70, maybe I will get one.

And? Quit trying to purposefully cloud the issue of handouts/welfare and a government check.

I earned my pay. It happened to be I earned it working for the US government. I earn one now that is not from the US government. The government offered an employment opportunity and I took it. I didn't go begging someone else to support me. I provided a service to them, and they paid me for it.

Welfare recipients are not being paid for services. They are being subsidized by the government for NOT working, or earning enough to support their chosen lifestyles.

Clearly, two different things.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I hear you, but I have worked my entire life without getting a government check. If I live to be 70, maybe I will get one.

Doesn't change the fact that military retirement is a CONTRACT we made and earned. Just like any other retirement deal.

 

[jreeves]

The 87 year old guy would have run out money long ago unless he were extremely wealthy. Irrelevant argument. SS is a great thing and it is socialistic.

GunnyL, You were not born into wasting energy, that is a decision you have made by your lifestyle. As much as I enjoy car travel in America I have never been dependent on a car. Just like many who think the problem is because of circumstances, you too excuse your (ours as a nation) bad decisions. Of course corporate America loves you for it.

We are really a plutocracy, it will be interesting how much that will change after Obama is elected?

Military spending is absurd. We could destroy the world with ease but notice with all that power we cannot always control nations, Iraq, so corporations can exploit it - Oh, sorry, forgot Halliburton, et al.

World Military Spending - Global Issues
NationMaster - Expenditures > Dollar figure (most recent) by country


A vote for McCain is a vote against the fundamental principle of America, the right of the individual to lead their life without the government interfering.

SOCIAL SPENDING, which grew 14 times faster than the economy - - to a new high - - more than eating up the long-term decline of defense spending ratios shown by the black line in the chart. The full report (link below) shows once the social spending ratio rose above 5% of national income in the late 1960s, citizen trust in government plummeted to half prior levels - - and inflation-adjusted median family incomes stagnated for all families and fell for single wage-earner families. Note social spending (red line) stopped rising in the early 1980s as if it hit a brick wall, and then fell - - and other data show trust in government surged, only to fall back later as social spending ratios again climbed. This is a powerful finding that deserves more attention. (the full report contains a link to a special report and chart on citizen trust polling data).

The declining black trend line is defense spending, which in 2001 had dropped to 3.7% of the economy's national income, below where it started - following a 5-decade downward slope. The black defense line for 2003-06 increased to 4.9% of national income as shown in the graphic. This multi-decade declining defense ratio camouflaged a new direction for government - - surging social programs and spending.
Grandfather Federal Government Spending Report - summary - by MWHodges

Lmao...military spending is absurd compared to social spending

 

[Shogun]

uh, Louisiana didn't just START selling sea food when oil rigs went up. And there have been recent conversations weather or not they ARE good for oceanic environments too.

Are artificial reefs good for the environment?

Proponents say they replenish the ecosystem. Some scientists aren't so sure.

Environment: The Ecology of Artificial Reefs | Newsweek Project Green | Newsweek.com

But, yes, I'd say that government allowance of a private company to drill a common NATIONAL RESOURCE for the sake of private profit IS akin to welfare.

 

[WhoisJohnGault]

I have been thinking about the price of oil, and the whimpering from the republicans and others. Oil prices are driven by supply, demand, and competition. Demand is driven by lifestyle. Now if a women cannot make a mistake and welfare participants cannot make a mistake then Americans who have made bad decisions regarding energy should suffer the same social darwinistic plight. So I guess I don't understand why republicans are blaming drilling, aka ruining our planet, for their own bad decisions.

Just as republicans and others complain about taxes, shouldn't citizens of the world complain about wasteful lifestyles that have the potential to ruin mother earth? It would seem from a moral point of view to be a fair conclusion. So again let me repeat my question, if we are irresponsible with energy then why the complaints? Didn't we create this situations? Answers welcome.

Excuse me, I am new here as of today, yet I have to ask you what mistakes have most of us made? I live a very frugal lifestyle. I live in Maine where most of the homes have been furnished with oil heat. My home is 128 years old..and at this time I cannot afford to buy a new furnace. Mine is oil heat, forced hot water driven baseboard heat. It works pretty efficiently for what it is. I do plan to buy a new more efficent model sometime next year. I cannot change to another source of heat now. I see most alternatives to fossil fuel heat is very very very expensive. We do not qualify for low income loans that are avail. to those who wish to buy a new furnace or upgrade. We make too much for that, so we are caught in the perrenial position of making too much for help yet not enough to pay outright. I keep my thermostat at 66 in the winter, not only to save oil, but I like it cooler than warmer. We can always throw on a heavy sweater or whatever. I use my water efficiently, I recyle all the time, I bought all those stupid "Al Gore" danged lightbulbs that suck big time.....so you tell me how I am wasteful? I believe that most people are in my category.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

The 87 year old guy would have run out money long ago unless he were extremely wealthy. Irrelevant argument. SS is a great thing and it is socialistic.

A vote for McCain is a vote against the fundamental principle of America, the right of the individual to lead their life without the government interfering.

I certainly agree with your second statement.

But what is SS and socialism in general, if not government interference in your life?

Another interesting thing to ponder: I make a pretty average salary. My monthly paycheck deductions--SS, medicare/medicaid, income tax--are about $350 every two weeks. My employer's SS contribution is just over $100 every two weeks, and let's face it--that is money that would have otherwise gone into your salary, since it's a per-worker tax. That's $450 every two weeks that I'm missing. Or, to put it another way--$975 a month!

Do you think reaching my retirement goals would be a wee bit easier if I got to keep that money? Or even part of it. I could double my 401k contribution if I could just keep the SS part. Even if I just stuck it in a savings account, it would be better.

To ponder further--I wonder how much more money private charities would receive if the average american were getting an extra $1,000 a month? How many people could take their kids out of failing government schools, how many wouldn't need welfare anymore, how many could afford health care, etc?

But, yes, I'd say that government allowance of a private company to drill a common NATIONAL RESOURCE for the sake of private profit IS akin to welfare.

The government shouldn't even own the land to begin with.

Aside from that, the oil companies aren't stealing anything; they're spending their own money. The closest analogy would be homesteading, where you stake off a claim on vacant land and then spend your own money to develop it, which is what this country was founded on.

As opposed to welfare, which is just theft.

 

[editec]

what is it with people any gunny's or sargent's military service and retirement? are you actually saying that a republican form of government cannot offer a salary, benefits, including retirement, to people who want to serve in the military? pfft

I have NO PROBLEM with having a military, paying them well, treating them well, giving them retirement either. I am also a veteran, remember?

But when these lifers start telling us that the civilians who PAY their salaries though FORCED TAXATION ought to more greatly appreciate the benefits of CAPITALISM, a capitism they themselves don't have to live in, I am merely pointing out what bullshit their views are.

Lifers are the beneficiaries of the government's socialist military.

 

[jreeves]

I have NO PROBLEM with having a military, paying them well, treating them well, giving them retirement either. I am also a veteran, remember?

But when these lifers start telling us that the civilians who PAY their salaries though FORCED TAXATION ought to more greatly appreciate the benefits of CAPITALISM, a capitism they themselves don't have to live in, I am merely pointing out what bullshit their views are.

Lifers are the beneficiaries of the government's socialist military.

Military benefits are not socialism....

 

[midcan5]

Doesn't change the fact that military retirement is a CONTRACT we made and earned. Just like any other retirement deal.

While I don't disagree, I think, wouldn't it be nice if business operated in a similar fashion? Instead we have dog eat dog capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich in a matter of speaking. By the way business used to be that way, what changed? Republican voodoo economics maybe? Greed?

 

[midcan5]

Excuse me, I am new here as of today, yet I have to ask you what mistakes have most of us made? I live a very frugal lifestyle.

I love Maine - what I mean is the sprawl and the dependence we have placed on cars and the senseless energy inefficient too big homes we build. Mass transit hardly survives but we waste and pollute to drive to a home where we stay indoors. I bicycled and road public trans for most of my working life, the complaint is about the American ethos of waste.

 

[DiamondDave]

While I don't disagree, I think, wouldn't it be nice if business operated in a similar fashion? Instead we have dog eat dog capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich in a matter of speaking. By the way business used to be that way, what changed? Republican voodoo economics maybe? Greed?

So ... in other words... you want this forced upon business... you are against the freedom our forefathers fought for...

In business... you can get retirement... you EARN it... you gain the skills in demand, or you come up with your own business or ideas or invention.... you accomplish things.... and you save, invest, take advantage of benefits businesses DO offer...

You don't just sit and think everyone else OWES you..

I believe fully that the only person that owes you anything is you... the very same person that is the only person responsible for your well being

 

[editec]

'Tis a simple answer. He is going to try and gloss over the fact that I earned a retirement check that happens to be from the US government and try and sell it as some kind of government subsidy. Another member tried to drag up the same crap as well.

I'm not denying that you EARNED your retirement.

I AM denying that capitalism is paying your salary though.

SOCIETY is paying your salary now, just as it paid your salary when you were in the military.

Pretending that you are not the beneficary of the collectivism of society is absurd while at the same time, you are whining about social security and socialism.

You entire career benefitted from (what you call) socialism, sporto.