Is anyone happy with the cap and trade bill?

[Chris]

Moving toward clean energy is a good idea.

Pretty simple really.

I love all the Republican whinning, however. They loved it when the oil men were in the White House and gas was $4.50 a gallon.

price of gasoline had nothing to do with who was in the white house, numbnuts.

Isn't it amazing how ignorant people like this think that the price of gasoline is linked to the president? And putting solar panels would cost more than the house is even worth. Chris needs a check with reality. Let me ask you this Chris. Do you have solar panels instead of roof tiles? If not, shut the fuck up.

I am sure that having two oil men in the White House had nothing to do with allowing the oil speculators to run wild and the oil companies to make record profits. I am sure that the owner of a large chunk of Haliburton stock, Dick Cheney, was looking out for the interests of the average American.

 

[elvis]

price of gasoline had nothing to do with who was in the white house, numbnuts.

Isn't it amazing how ignorant people like this think that the price of gasoline is linked to the president? And putting solar panels would cost more than the house is even worth. Chris needs a check with reality. Let me ask you this Chris. Do you have solar panels instead of roof tiles? If not, shut the fuck up.

I am sure that having two oil men in the White House had nothing to do with allowing the oil speculators to run wild and the oil companies to make record profits. I am sure that the owner of a large chunk of Haliburton stock, Dick Cheney, was looking out for the interests of the average American.

had nothing to do it, you stupid fuckhead.

 

[Chris]

Isn't it amazing how ignorant people like this think that the price of gasoline is linked to the president? And putting solar panels would cost more than the house is even worth. Chris needs a check with reality. Let me ask you this Chris. Do you have solar panels instead of roof tiles? If not, shut the fuck up.

I am sure that having two oil men in the White House had nothing to do with allowing the oil speculators to run wild and the oil companies to make record profits. I am sure that the owner of a large chunk of Haliburton stock, Dick Cheney, was looking out for the interests of the average American.

had nothing to do it, you stupid fuckhead.

Of course not.

I am sure that when Cheney met in secret with the oil company execs to plan our national energy policy, he planned to get us off of our addiction to foreign oil. That is why the Bush administration fought against MPG requirements for autos.

 

[elvis]

I am sure that having two oil men in the White House had nothing to do with allowing the oil speculators to run wild and the oil companies to make record profits. I am sure that the owner of a large chunk of Haliburton stock, Dick Cheney, was looking out for the interests of the average American.

had nothing to do it, you stupid fuckhead.

Of course not.

I am sure that when Cheney met in secret with the oil company execs to plan our national energy policy, he planned to get us off of our addiction to foreign oil. That is why the Bush administration fought against MPG requirements for autos.

you're as bad as eots.

 

[Barb]

If so please explain why, because I, for one, am not.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. "

If you believe that, then you should believe that future generations have, at the very least, the same inalienable right to "life" as the present generation does.
So yes, I do.
As a policy instrument, ACES ably addresses a wide range of concerns with the appropriate government departments while withdrawing us from the tipping point that would make life on earth uninhabitable for future generations. These actions should have been achieved in (and because of the lessons of) the seventies. If they were, the US wouldn't be sucking hind tit to other countries regarding new technologies in renewable energy. We can still be a leader in innovation, and if this passes, we will reap the rewards and bestow the "Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity." More often than not the right thing to do is profitable. It might take a minute longer than to rape and pillage, but the rewards are longer lasting.

IMHO, there is no real evidence that our actions are in any way tipping the ballance to make life on earth uninhabitable.

If you would just thke the time to research the temperature changes our planet has gone through over the past, you might see that warming and cooling are a natural effect, and have been going on long before we came along.

Please see the post this post.

Today, 06:20 AM
RetiredGySgt
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A little History lesson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Global Warming:A Chilling Perspective

I studied it in school, taught by respected science professors backed up by solid science texts. Why would a post on a message board make me doubt 3 semesters? Its all good though. I think the adults are in charge of government now, and that's a positive step forward. Have a happy fourth.

 

[Meister]

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. "

If you believe that, then you should believe that future generations have, at the very least, the same inalienable right to "life" as the present generation does.
So yes, I do.
As a policy instrument, ACES ably addresses a wide range of concerns with the appropriate government departments while withdrawing us from the tipping point that would make life on earth uninhabitable for future generations. These actions should have been achieved in (and because of the lessons of) the seventies. If they were, the US wouldn't be sucking hind tit to other countries regarding new technologies in renewable energy. We can still be a leader in innovation, and if this passes, we will reap the rewards and bestow the "Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity." More often than not the right thing to do is profitable. It might take a minute longer than to rape and pillage, but the rewards are longer lasting.

IMHO, there is no real evidence that our actions are in any way tipping the ballance to make life on earth uninhabitable.

If you would just thke the time to research the temperature changes our planet has gone through over the past, you might see that warming and cooling are a natural effect, and have been going on long before we came along.

Please see the post this post.

Today, 06:20 AM
RetiredGySgt
Registered User
Member #5176 Join Date: May 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 15,566
Thanks: 7
Thanked 291 Times in 210 Posts
Rep Power: 203



A little History lesson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Global Warming:A Chilling Perspective

I studied it in school, taught by respected science professors backed up by solid science texts. Why would a post on a message board make me doubt 3 semesters? Its all good though. I think the adults are in charge of government now, and that's a positive step forward. Have a happy fourth.

Your being guided by nothing more than biased opinions, Barb. There is just as much science to say that your instructors are wrong. You have a good fourth too.

 

[Harry Dresden]

I am sure that having two oil men in the White House had nothing to do with allowing the oil speculators to run wild and the oil companies to make record profits. I am sure that the owner of a large chunk of Haliburton stock, Dick Cheney, was looking out for the interests of the average American.

had nothing to do it, you stupid fuckhead.

Of course not.

I am sure that when Cheney met in secret with the oil company execs to plan our national energy policy, he planned to get us off of our addiction to foreign oil. That is why the Bush administration fought against MPG requirements for autos.

and so now we have EXTREAM environmental-capitalist getting their hands in the pie....wow that makes me feel better....

 

[Meister]

price of gasoline had nothing to do with who was in the white house, numbnuts.

Isn't it amazing how ignorant people like this think that the price of gasoline is linked to the president? And putting solar panels would cost more than the house is even worth. Chris needs a check with reality. Let me ask you this Chris. Do you have solar panels instead of roof tiles? If not, shut the fuck up.

I am sure that having two oil men in the White House had nothing to do with allowing the oil speculators to run wild and the oil companies to make record profits. I am sure that the owner of a large chunk of Haliburton stock, Dick Cheney, was looking out for the interests of the average American.

Can you link us to where we could read about Dick Cheney making all this money with Haliburton when he was VP?
FactCheck.org: Kerry Ad Falsely Accuses Cheney on Halliburton

 

[garyd]

Ladies and gentlemen warming when it has happened has in fact been a good thing for humanity. The medieval warm period being only one of the more recent examples of this fact. Northern German was wine country as was much of England at that time. And Nova Scotia may hae been as well, no one is exactly sure what Lief meant when he reference the place as Vinland.

 

[garyd]

Chris people who live in places like Seattle - less than forty days of sunshine a year - need solar panels like you need an additional hole in your head. And why whould you want old obsoleter\ technology on peoples roofs? We got better things than those old evironmentally nasty things in the pipeline.

 

[Invisible Hand]

This is the worst time to impose more regulations and penalties on businesses. I'm all for cleaner air but this bill is just working against the economic stimulus. Australia was able to see this concept but 219 House members couldn't. Anyone see the Rasmussen poll that showed 42% of Americans (Republicans-56%, independents-53%, Democrats-23%) believe it will hurt the economy?

 

[Care4all]

Isn't it amazing how ignorant people like this think that the price of gasoline is linked to the president? And putting solar panels would cost more than the house is even worth. Chris needs a check with reality. Let me ask you this Chris. Do you have solar panels instead of roof tiles? If not, shut the fuck up.

I am sure that having two oil men in the White House had nothing to do with allowing the oil speculators to run wild and the oil companies to make record profits. I am sure that the owner of a large chunk of Haliburton stock, Dick Cheney, was looking out for the interests of the average American.

had nothing to do it, you stupid fuckhead.

I disagree, to a degree!

Here is how I see the President's connection:

Going to War, ALWAYS causes the price of Oil to go up...and a war in the Middle east area where oil resides in the ground, moreso than other regions.

Our Military, moving troops overseas and weapons and artillery overseas uses a lot of refined oil.

Being in a state of War also makes us buy more oil reserves for ourselves and our Military use keeping demand higher than it would be if we were not at war.

The speculators raised the price of oil with every sneeze that took place in Iraq...that our military would be using more oil and that oil out of the ground in Iraq would be limited....three years after the war had started we still did not pull out of the ground, the oil levels sadam was pulling out of the ground and selling....thus supply continued to be limited....

Oil world wide more than tripled in price from when the war began in 2003 until last July where we peaked....

War in Iraq ENRICHED ALL OIL BASED economy countries, including Iran....and including our mega oil companies, it always does.

That being said, Obama in Afghanistan also gives oil speculators the leeway to speculate till their cows come home and prices are going up again, on mere speculation of things going bad in warring....

care

 

[Care4all]

This thread is long, and I did not see a link to what the Cap and Trade bill actually says in this initial post for this thread...

At the sake of saving some time, can anyone give a short summary again, even if they have already, of what this bill entails...shorthand version... Or direct me to a post number to look at....?

Some thoughts while in my Devil's Advocate Roll have come to mind when pondering this issue...

Why wouldn't electric companies just invest in cleaner energy instead of being penalized?

Companies are already taking steps themselves....as example, Massachusetts Electric, just bought a mountain and meadow or is leasing the side of a mountain and meadow here in Maine, I had heard on the local news, to set up wind turbines for massachusett's electricity.

Our State is encouraging any electric company in New England to capture their wind energy here in Maine....what's sad is that other states are jumping in on it while our own Maine Electric companies are doing nearly nil...though we may get our electric from Canada for the most part and I believe theirs is water power, which is also clean electric and not subject to a Carbon tax....

And in Florida, as mentioned earlier, they are taking steps to add more nuclear plants and also, Tampa Electric is an award winner in clean electric....they were FINED for polluting and breaking some EPA laws and were required to clean their act up in so many years and instead of waiting the 10 years and meeting the minimum level that the EPA was requiring from them, they remodified their dirty electric plant to clean technology, at a level MUCH HIGHER than the EPA asked of them and did it in record time, just a couple of years....or something like such...

So, many of these steps to clean up their acts are occurring, and perhaps legislation like this will just give incentive to speed it up a bit?

I can remember reading that legislation of the past that regulated different things, many were crying that the world would end if they got passed and legislated....yet, not once did the world come to an end, so is this really the same, once the real details are dug in to?

care

 

[Harry Dresden]

Chris people who live in places like Seattle - less than forty days of sunshine a year - need solar panels like you need an additional hole in your head. And why whould you want old obsoleter\ technology on peoples roofs? We got better things than those old evironmentally nasty things in the pipeline.

Chris has it pointed out to him that S.Cal and Ariz. for instance have different weather factors than Maine or Wash. Etc,thus making standardize roofing nation wide ridiculous....but he just comes back advocating the same roofing for all....

 

[Harry Dresden]

This thread is long, and I did not see a link to what the Cap and Trade bill actually says in this initial post for this thread...

At the sake of saving some time, can anyone give a short summary again, even if they have already, of what this bill entails...shorthand version... Or direct me to a post number to look at....?

Some thoughts while in my Devil's Advocate Roll have come to mind when pondering this issue...

Why wouldn't electric companies just invest in cleaner energy instead of being penalized?

Companies are already taking steps themselves....as example, Massachusetts Electric, just bought a mountain and meadow or is leasing the side of a mountain and meadow here in Maine, I had heard on the local news, to set up wind turbines for massachusett's electricity.

Our State is encouraging any electric company in New England to capture their wind energy here in Maine....what's sad is that other states are jumping in on it while our own Maine Electric companies are doing nearly nil...though we may get our electric from Canada for the most part and I believe theirs is water power, which is also clean electric and not subject to a Carbon tax....

And in Florida, as mentioned earlier, they are taking steps to add more nuclear plants and also, Tampa Electric is an award winner in clean electric....they were FINED for polluting and breaking some EPA laws and were required to clean their act up in so many years and instead of waiting the 10 years and meeting the minimum level that the EPA was requiring from them, they remodified their dirty electric plant to clean technology, at a level MUCH HIGHER than the EPA asked of them and did it in record time, just a couple of years....or something like such...

So, many of these steps to clean up their acts are occurring, and perhaps legislation like this will just give incentive to speed it up a bit?

I can remember reading that legislation of the past that regulated different things, many were crying that the world would end if they got passed and legislated....yet, not once did the world come to an end, so is this really the same, once the real details are dug in to?

care

glad you guys are moving along....here in the state that "sets the tone for the country" nothing is getting done because nobody wants anything built in their backyards....or off shore....or even some remote areas the Environmentalist will block....as Mr. Spock would say "FASCINATING"....

 

[garyd]

Care we've never, I repeat never had anything this far reaching this particularly damaging thrown at us before. There is no summary and as always the devil will be very much in the details. How do you summarize c;osing on a thousand pages of gobbledygook most of which si designed to benefit various and sundry Democratic allies not a few of whom are of the peculiarly insane notion that the only good economy is a subsistence farming economy and that gasoline is the mortal enemy of all mankind.

 

[RodISHI]

the government subsidized the oil and the electricity industries for decades, if not a century...

Care, this bill is an enrichment bill and frankly I'm actually surprised that democrats as well as republicans are not outraged over it's passage in the house. This bill does nothing in the way of putting people back to work or helps them with their healthcare, it bascially enriches enviro-business at the expense of us all and in a time that for the most part this nation is hurting financially. It's one of the reasons I put up the solar credit suggestion as a way to show that had they really been serious about it then they would have not sought to set up a carbon ponzi scheme that they know won't work and hasn't worked in Europe. The only thing it has done Care is cause more people to lose their jobs, and enrich those that are in the carbon trading business. You know Care for me it doesn't take a whole lot to understand when a company set's up a carbon trading division then starts to lobby congress for the passage of a bill to trade carbon credits to know that they have an agenda that may not include the best interests of the citizens of this nation.

Every house representative that voted yes on this massive fraud should be tossed out on their ears...For the senators that are playing this game we should also take note and send them packing also.

 

[Care4all]

the government subsidized the oil and the electricity industries for decades, if not a century...

Care, this bill is an enrichment bill and frankly I'm actually surprised that democrats as well as republicans are not outraged over it's passage in the house. This bill does nothing in the way of putting people back to work or helps them with their healthcare, it bascially enriches enviro-business at the expense of us all and in a time that for the most part this nation is hurting financially. It's one of the reasons I put up the solar credit suggestion as a way to show that had they really been serious about it then they would have not sought to set up a carbon ponzi scheme that they know won't work and hasn't worked in Europe. The only thing it has done Care is cause more people to lose their jobs, and enrich those that are in the carbon trading business. You know Care for me it doesn't take a whole lot to understand when a company set's up a carbon trading division then starts to lobby congress for the passage of a bill to trade carbon credits to know that they have an agenda that may not include the best interests of the citizens of this nation.

Every house representative that voted yes on this massive fraud should be tossed out on their ears...For the senators that are playing this game we should also take note and send them packing also.

when you have 44 democrats voting against it, you KNOW there are some real problems with it. If you were to list your top 3 concerns, what are they?

also, i suppose i will have to read the whole thread and google it, and no shortcuts are available to understanding the devil in the details part?

care

 

[RodISHI]

Care, this bill is an enrichment bill and frankly I'm actually surprised that democrats as well as republicans are not outraged over it's passage in the house. This bill does nothing in the way of putting people back to work or helps them with their healthcare, it bascially enriches enviro-business at the expense of us all and in a time that for the most part this nation is hurting financially. It's one of the reasons I put up the solar credit suggestion as a way to show that had they really been serious about it then they would have not sought to set up a carbon ponzi scheme that they know won't work and hasn't worked in Europe. The only thing it has done Care is cause more people to lose their jobs, and enrich those that are in the carbon trading business. You know Care for me it doesn't take a whole lot to understand when a company set's up a carbon trading division then starts to lobby congress for the passage of a bill to trade carbon credits to know that they have an agenda that may not include the best interests of the citizens of this nation.

Every house representative that voted yes on this massive fraud should be tossed out on their ears...For the senators that are playing this game we should also take note and send them packing also.

when you have 44 democrats voting against it, you KNOW there are some real problems with it. If you were to list your top 3 concerns, what are they?

also, i suppose i will have to read the whole thread and google it, and no shortcuts are available to understanding the devil in the details part?

care

Here is a link to the short title of bill that pass the senate yet it does not link to the body of each section.

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)


Here a link to the entire bill that pass the House....

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h2454eh.txt.pdf

I'll get back with you on those three specifics......

In looking thus far I have more questions...


Like what wells are they closing? They had a bullshit program here when we moved here to fill and cap water wells on private property. One of the county guys asked me, Are you going to get your free $200.00? I'm like what for? To fill in your well. I told him you've got to be kidding, take two hundred bucks for my own water source that is free so I can pay someone else for my water? No thanks!
‘

(2) FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY.—The regula11
tions referred to in paragraph (1) shall include requirements for maintaining evidence of financial responsibility, including financial responsibility for emergency and remedial response, well plugging, site closure, and post-injection site care. Financial responsibility may be established for carbon dioxide geologic sequestration wells in accordance with regulations promulgated by the Administrator by any one, or any combination, of the following: insurance, guarantee, trust, standby trust, surety bond, letter of credit, qualification as a self-insurer, or any other method satisfactory to the Administrator.’’.

Care, truthfully I think much of the government sucks to high heaven and they are not taking care of the best interest of the people. They are fully intent at this point on making everyone tow their mark and tax everyone into oblivion where the people have no freedom of choice.

What exactly does this paragraph mean?

(2) FERC MODIFICATION AUTHORITY.—After
10 reviewing the report required by subsection (a), the
11 Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, in concurrence with the Secretary of Agriculture, may, by regulation and after public notice and comment, modify
the non-Federal lands portion of the definition of ‘‘renewable biomass’’ in section 610 of the Public Utility Regulatory Policies Act of 1978 in order to advance the goals of increasing America’s energy independence, protecting the environment, and reducing global warming pollution.

A clause for biomass diesel but screw the other companies already established?

‘‘(v) GRANDFATHERING BIOMASS BASED DIESEL.—The Administrator shall.....

I keep reading and taking notes.....

 

[RodISHI]

Here ya go Care, the main reason this bill should be scrapped....This is what Navy has been trying to get across to everyone. WE SHOULD NEVER EVER HAVE REPRESENTATIVES IN OUR GOVERNMENT THAT ARE WILLING TO USURP POWER TO ANY FOREIGN COUNTRY, FORMER POLITICIAN, CORPORATION OR MONOPOLY....There are legislators that need to be tossed out on their asses for doing this already.

1 ‘‘SEC. 728. INTERNATIONAL EMISSION ALLOWANCES. ‘‘(a) QUALIFYING PROGRAMS.—The Administrator, in consultation with the Secretary of State, may by rule
designate an international climate change program as a qualifying international program if— ‘‘(1) the program is run by a national or supra national foreign government, and imposes a mandatory absolute tonnage limit on greenhouse gas emissions from 1 or more foreign countries, or from 1 or more economic sectors in such a country or coun11
tries; and ‘‘(2) the program is at least as stringent as the program established by this title, including provisions to ensure at least comparable monitoring, compliance, enforcement, quality of offsets, and restrictions on the use of offsets. ‘‘(b) DISQUALIFIED ALLOWANCES.—An international emission allowance may not be held under section
19 722(d)(2) if it is in the nature of an offset instrument or allowance awarded based on the achievement of greenhouse gas emission reductions or avoidance, or greenhouse
gas sequestration, that are not subject to the mandatory absolute tonnage limits referred to in subsection (a)(1).