I'm for gutting the whole government system

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Even the majority of TEA party members sent to D.C. voted for extending the patriot act.

If you or others expected otherwise, you were foolish and naïve to do so. They’re politicians, first and foremost.

The first step to healing is to quit hurting ourselves - i.e. STOP voting for Democrats and Republicans. That strategy is a proven failure.

Exactly.

So, the ‘government’ or ‘system’ doesn’t need to be ‘gutted,’ and any failing we see is our responsibility, not the ‘government’s.’

Pretty sorry list there.
I would not want any of them.

Stop looking for ‘leaders,’ that's not going to fix the problem. This is going to take decades to fix – you must start at the very local level by electing mayors, councilmen, and dog catchers who are not part of the local democratic or republican machines. As these elected officials rise through the ranks to Federal offices, they’ll reflect the will of the people, not the party machines they’re indebted to.

Trying to change things at the top is a waste of time, as these officials have already been co-opted by the party machines and PACs.

Our elected officials are not governing this country the way they should we just do away with the Constitution and continue the way we have wince the days of Woodrow Wilson. Is it to much to expect our elected officials to do as the Constitution dictate to do?
As for your question I think we should go back to being what we started out being, a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC.

We are currently a Constitutional Republic, we always have been. The Constitution doesn’t ‘dictate’ anyone to do anything. Each branch of government is functioning in its Constitutional context until such time as the Supreme Court says it’s not. The Supreme Court is the final authority on what the Constitution means, and it derives that authority from the doctrine of the rule of law. We are governed by the rule of law, not men, who are incapable of ruling justly.

Consequently this is not a Constitutional issue; this is a failure of the people to compel elected officials to acknowledge the will of the people. Indeed, the heart of he problem is that the people have abdicated their responsibility to special interests and the two major parties, who are exercising that authority we gave them accordingly.

You’re not going to fix things from the top down, or by ‘gutting’ government, casting ‘protest votes,’ or amending the Constitution. And as noted the only way we make any progress is if the people work together.

The power elite and special interests don’t care about abortion, the deficit, or healthcare reform, those are distractions to keep the people divided and weak and the status quo in place.

 

[dblack]

Pretty sorry list there.
I would not want any of them.

Stop looking for ‘leaders,’ that's not going to fix the problem. This is going to take decades to fix – you must start at the very local level by electing mayors, councilmen, and dog catchers who are not part of the local democratic or republican machines. As these elected officials rise through the ranks to Federal offices, they’ll reflect the will of the people, not the party machines they’re indebted to.

Trying to change things at the top is a waste of time, as these officials have already been co-opted by the party machines and PACs.

Excellent point to make. I worked with the grass roots movement campaigning to nominate Ron Paul in '08, and it became overwhelmingly clear just how 'local' politics really are. Precinct politics are personal and very, very local. I recall, as each voter approached the voting stations in the primaries, the precinct captain for their party would shake their hands and hand them the pre-printed list of establishment approved candidates. This was usually accompanied by a brief conversation recalling instances where the precinct captain or one of his cronies had helped the voter out with some problem or issue (trash pick, road work, etc...).

It was depressingly obvious that there was very little hope of someone like Ron Paul ever breaking through such a system without the express approval of established party leadership.

 

[candycorn]

I am for updating the God Damn constitution

Really.....AND just who do you trust to do THAT?

A constitutional convention where all states send delegates was the way I recall it being done in the past. At some point, every form of government relies on trust. I don't know if it is the best idea. Who would you send? If I were to say the deans of the PoliSci departments at Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Notre Dame, Columbia, and Brandice and just let those 7 figure it all out...would that be better? LOL.

That was then and this is now. There was one common enemy then that those who wanted a new republic free from a king or an ideologue. There are too few cool heads with no axe to grind. No one without an agenda would have enough support to be sent anywhere. It would be a clusterfuck and at best a waste of time..at worst...the most dangerous thing we as a nation could possibly embark on.

I would not support it in any fashion. Mine and possibly your ancestors did not fight and give their lives and blood to have some 21st century halfwits screw with the best document ever written.

Thats a perfectly valid position to take except those "halfwits" as you call them are, I suppose, the ones running the government and our current document leaves nearly every fiscal concern and a great many concerns Americans in 2011 find important to interpretation.

I really do not wish to re-write the Constitution from the ground up.
I do think there needs to be iron-handed guidelines so the "halfwits" can do very little damage.

For example, how high can our debt ceiling go? Does anybody know? Of course not. Put that in the Constitution and you now have the checks and balances of a court being able to strike laws that spend more money than is constitutionally mandated. Currently, the Congressional "halfwits" can, in theory, raise the debt ceiling to 100 bazillion batrillion battallion gazillion and one cent if they want and constitutionally, there isn't any check on what they do.

Would you agree that spending is out of control?
I would.When a horse is out of control, you pull back on the reins. If you're smart, you don't jerk them...you ease up a little at a time. This is a jerk of the reins to be sure however, due to the vagueness of the document, the rider is out of control with no willingness to tug on the reins. Gently. So we need to have it jerked, and for the rider to get thrown.

Amendments to the effect of what I am speaking of would be dandy. However, I think fiscal matters are only one symptom of a malady that infects the country.

 

[The T]

And replace it with what?

Couldn't resist it could you deany?

Don't you get tired of Republicans screaming for tearing down the government but not having a single idea what to replace it with? Do they really want us to be Afghanistan?

Conservatives are talking about the Constitution and the FOUNDING principles...Republicans have LOST thier way deany...it's been stated ad nauseum thoughout these pages...but yet? *YOU* plod on...

Face it deany? yer an idiot. A TOOL of yer masters in big gubmint.

SUCKS...to be YOU.

 

[Intense]

A constitutional convention where all states send delegates was the way I recall it being done in the past. At some point, every form of government relies on trust. I don't know if it is the best idea. Who would you send? If I were to say the deans of the PoliSci departments at Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Notre Dame, Columbia, and Brandice and just let those 7 figure it all out...would that be better? LOL.

That was then and this is now. There was one common enemy then that those who wanted a new republic free from a king or an ideologue. There are too few cool heads with no axe to grind. No one without an agenda would have enough support to be sent anywhere. It would be a clusterfuck and at best a waste of time..at worst...the most dangerous thing we as a nation could possibly embark on.

I would not support it in any fashion. Mine and possibly your ancestors did not fight and give their lives and blood to have some 21st century halfwits screw with the best document ever written.

Thats a perfectly valid position to take except those "halfwits" as you call them are, I suppose, the ones running the government and our current document leaves nearly every fiscal concern and a great many concerns Americans in 2011 find important to interpretation.

I really do not wish to re-write the Constitution from the ground up.
I do think there needs to be iron-handed guidelines so the "halfwits" can do very little damage.

For example, how high can our debt ceiling go? Does anybody know? Of course not. Put that in the Constitution and you now have the checks and balances of a court being able to strike laws that spend more money than is constitutionally mandated. Currently, the Congressional "halfwits" can, in theory, raise the debt ceiling to 100 bazillion batrillion battallion gazillion and one cent if they want and constitutionally, there isn't any check on what they do.

Would you agree that spending is out of control?
I would.When a horse is out of control, you pull back on the reins. If you're smart, you don't jerk them...you ease up a little at a time. This is a jerk of the reins to be sure however, due to the vagueness of the document, the rider is out of control with no willingness to tug on the reins. Gently. So we need to have it jerked, and for the rider to get thrown.

Amendments to the effect of what I am speaking of would be dandy. However, I think fiscal matters are only one symptom of a malady that infects the country.

Hamilton robbed us of Enumerated Powers by Trumping it with the General Welfare Clause, we lost control of the Reins even then. He was dishonest from the start, making one claim before ratification, then reversing his position after the Constitution became Law. One of the first bait and switches. Also a distinction between Federalist and Nationalist, with Federalism getting the short end. Hamilton wanted an Empire where you were free to voice your support in the Voting booth, and the rest of the time get spoon fed what he wanted to feed you. Until the Unalienable Rights of Each Being is Protected, until we devise a system that can remain true to that Principle, which is timeless, we will be at odds with the Forces of Creation. Don't kid yourself. Either we learn to do what is right because it is the right thing to do, Individually, and Collectively, or We All lose. Our system does not come close to reflecting that.

 

[The T]

That was then and this is now. There was one common enemy then that those who wanted a new republic free from a king or an ideologue. There are too few cool heads with no axe to grind. No one without an agenda would have enough support to be sent anywhere. It would be a clusterfuck and at best a waste of time..at worst...the most dangerous thing we as a nation could possibly embark on.

I would not support it in any fashion. Mine and possibly your ancestors did not fight and give their lives and blood to have some 21st century halfwits screw with the best document ever written.

Thats a perfectly valid position to take except those "halfwits" as you call them are, I suppose, the ones running the government and our current document leaves nearly every fiscal concern and a great many concerns Americans in 2011 find important to interpretation.

I really do not wish to re-write the Constitution from the ground up.
I do think there needs to be iron-handed guidelines so the "halfwits" can do very little damage.

For example, how high can our debt ceiling go? Does anybody know? Of course not. Put that in the Constitution and you now have the checks and balances of a court being able to strike laws that spend more money than is constitutionally mandated. Currently, the Congressional "halfwits" can, in theory, raise the debt ceiling to 100 bazillion batrillion battallion gazillion and one cent if they want and constitutionally, there isn't any check on what they do.

Would you agree that spending is out of control?
I would.When a horse is out of control, you pull back on the reins. If you're smart, you don't jerk them...you ease up a little at a time. This is a jerk of the reins to be sure however, due to the vagueness of the document, the rider is out of control with no willingness to tug on the reins. Gently. So we need to have it jerked, and for the rider to get thrown.

Amendments to the effect of what I am speaking of would be dandy. However, I think fiscal matters are only one symptom of a malady that infects the country.

Hamilton robbed us of Enumerated Powers by Trumping it with the General Welfare Clause, we lost control of the Reins even then. He was dishonest from the start, making one claim before ratification, then reversing his position after the Constitution became Law. One of the first bait and switches. Also a distinction between Federalist and Nationalist, with Federalism getting the short end. Hamilton wanted an Empire where you were free to voice your support in the Voting booth, and the rest of the time get spoon fed what he wanted to feed you. Until the Unalienable Rights of Each Being is Protected, until we devise a system that can remain true to that Principle, which is timeless, we will be at odds with the Forces of Creation. Don't kid yourself. Either we learn to do what is right because it is the right thing to do, Individually, and Collectively, or We All lose. Our system does not come close to reflecting that.

Indeed...

"This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

Hamilton uncategorically states that all congressional powers are enumerated and that the very existence of these enumerations alone makes any belief that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires nonsensical. If such broad congressional power had been the original intent, the constitutionally specified powers would have been worthless. In other words, why even enumerate any powers at all if the General Welfare clause could trump them?

Source...

 

[HUGGY]

A constitutional convention where all states send delegates was the way I recall it being done in the past. At some point, every form of government relies on trust. I don't know if it is the best idea. Who would you send? If I were to say the deans of the PoliSci departments at Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Notre Dame, Columbia, and Brandice and just let those 7 figure it all out...would that be better? LOL.

That was then and this is now. There was one common enemy then that those who wanted a new republic free from a king or an ideologue. There are too few cool heads with no axe to grind. No one without an agenda would have enough support to be sent anywhere. It would be a clusterfuck and at best a waste of time..at worst...the most dangerous thing we as a nation could possibly embark on.

I would not support it in any fashion. Mine and possibly your ancestors did not fight and give their lives and blood to have some 21st century halfwits screw with the best document ever written.

Thats a perfectly valid position to take except those "halfwits" as you call them are, I suppose, the ones running the government and our current document leaves nearly every fiscal concern and a great many concerns Americans in 2011 find important to interpretation.

I really do not wish to re-write the Constitution from the ground up.
I do think there needs to be iron-handed guidelines so the "halfwits" can do very little damage.

For example, how high can our debt ceiling go? Does anybody know? Of course not. Put that in the Constitution and you now have the checks and balances of a court being able to strike laws that spend more money than is constitutionally mandated. Currently, the Congressional "halfwits" can, in theory, raise the debt ceiling to 100 bazillion batrillion battallion gazillion and one cent if they want and constitutionally, there isn't any check on what they do.

Would you agree that spending is out of control?
I would.When a horse is out of control, you pull back on the reins. If you're smart, you don't jerk them...you ease up a little at a time. This is a jerk of the reins to be sure however, due to the vagueness of the document, the rider is out of control with no willingness to tug on the reins. Gently. So we need to have it jerked, and for the rider to get thrown.

Amendments to the effect of what I am speaking of would be dandy. However, I think fiscal matters are only one symptom of a malady that infects the country.

This isn't a "state" we are talking about. A constitutional amendment to cap the debt would be fatal. You don't know what can happen. You don't know what stupid thing some asshole or group of assholes can and or will do in the future that will force us to deal with. Having lived as long as I have there is one thing for certain.. Greedy, stupid people are born every day. Stupid politicians are being bred right along with them. It's like a never ending supply of drunken teenagers that get the car keys and promise to be good. They cannot help themselves from finding newer and more destructive ways to fuck with our family. Do you think this recent financial collapse is the last or the worst of it? I don't believe THAT for a second. Nope....we have to remain flexible to pay for whatever the future brings. The only recourse is to try to prevent disaster from happening. That isn't very likely as history has shown..over...and over..and over again.

What many cannot or refuse to imagine is what this country would be like right here and now if all of the financial markets completely collapsed as they surely would have if we had not intervened with a huge debt to our future.

You cannot legislate intelligence or predict the future. All we know for sure is that we will overcome anything that comes along. At some level there is no "tightening the belt" that will solve the problem. Who is going to put their life on hold and donate 95% of all of their assets to right the ship within one calender year? That's what it would have taken to "fix" the last disaster ...Nope..as sad as the reality was...we had to defer most of it and make payments. If I were you "we" need to make sure the potential for disaster is PREVENTED. I don't see that happening soon so "we" better just accept disaster until we become adult enough to regulate the stupid and greedy.

 

[Toro]

When you live under a system that was devised prior to street lights; is anybody surprised that we have problems? I'm not for gutting the government...its the best in the world (believe it or not). I am for updating the God Damn constitution to embrace the bedrock realities we face today.

It only works when persons of good faith serve. The parties have corrupted the process to the point of no return I'm afraid.

They run the elections; they appoint the electors who ultimately vote for President and Vice President; they actually negotiate the rules of debates at least at the Presidential level whereas the League of Women Voters once held that sacred of all electoral traditions, and they generally work to eliminate all moderates from the process.

No mention is made in the Constitution about political parties so they are not doing anything unconstitutional; they are, however, often times not acting in the best interest of the American people as a whole or the citizens of their States or Districts in the micro.

Take redistricting for example. Congressional districts are drawn to protect seats for whoever is doing the drawing. A constitutional order could change this to prevent such "gerrymandering". It should be a lottery of zip codes held every 6 years in my view (or at least 10 years as it is done now). Geographical restrictions should be damned. Currently Trent Franks represents part of suburban Phoenix...he also represents the Grand Canyon/Lake Mead area. Currently they don't give a damn about geography....what would it hurt? This should be job #1 of anybody who actually wants to fix the system instead of just bitching about it. Eventually a Dem will get a heavily Red zip code. He or she may get voted out. But maybe he or she will have to listen to a different voice from time to time...maybe they will change a few minds themselves. It's called leadership. It's called holding your elected officials feet to the fire. The best case is an informed citizenry.

Part of the problem is this idiotically stupid gerrymandering.

 

[The T]

That was then and this is now. There was one common enemy then that those who wanted a new republic free from a king or an ideologue. There are too few cool heads with no axe to grind. No one without an agenda would have enough support to be sent anywhere. It would be a clusterfuck and at best a waste of time..at worst...the most dangerous thing we as a nation could possibly embark on.

I would not support it in any fashion. Mine and possibly your ancestors did not fight and give their lives and blood to have some 21st century halfwits screw with the best document ever written.

Thats a perfectly valid position to take except those "halfwits" as you call them are, I suppose, the ones running the government and our current document leaves nearly every fiscal concern and a great many concerns Americans in 2011 find important to interpretation.

I really do not wish to re-write the Constitution from the ground up.
I do think there needs to be iron-handed guidelines so the "halfwits" can do very little damage.

For example, how high can our debt ceiling go? Does anybody know? Of course not. Put that in the Constitution and you now have the checks and balances of a court being able to strike laws that spend more money than is constitutionally mandated. Currently, the Congressional "halfwits" can, in theory, raise the debt ceiling to 100 bazillion batrillion battallion gazillion and one cent if they want and constitutionally, there isn't any check on what they do.

Would you agree that spending is out of control?
I would.When a horse is out of control, you pull back on the reins. If you're smart, you don't jerk them...you ease up a little at a time. This is a jerk of the reins to be sure however, due to the vagueness of the document, the rider is out of control with no willingness to tug on the reins. Gently. So we need to have it jerked, and for the rider to get thrown.

Amendments to the effect of what I am speaking of would be dandy. However, I think fiscal matters are only one symptom of a malady that infects the country.

This isn't a "state" we are talking about. A constitutional amendment to cap the debt would be fatal. You don't know what can happen. You don't know what stupid thing some asshole or group of assholes can and or will do in the future that will force us to deal with. Having lived as long as I have there is one thing for certain.. Greedy, stupid people are born every day. Stupid politicians are being bred right along with them. It's like a never ending supply of drunken teenagers that get the car keys and promise to be good. They cannot help themselves from finding newer and more destructive ways to fuck with our family. Do you think this recent financial collapse is the last or the worst of it? I don't believe THAT for a second. Nope....we have to remain flexible to pay for whatever the future brings. The only recourse is to try to prevent disaster from happening. That isn't very likely as history has shown..over...and over..and over again.

What many cannot or refuse to imagine is what this country would be like right here and now if all of the financial markets completely collapsed as they surely would have if we had not intervened with a huge debt to our future.

You cannot legislate intelligence or predict the future. All we know for sure is that we will overcome anything that comes along. At some level there is no "tightening the belt" that will solve the problem. Who is going to put their life on hold and donate 95% of all of their assets to right the ship within one calender year? That's what it would have taken to "fix" the last disaster ...Nope..as sad as the reality was...we had to defer most of it and make payments. If I were you "we" need to make sure the potential for disaster is PREVENTED. I don't see that happening soon so "we" better just accept disaster until we become adult enough to regulate the stupid and greedy.

Fatal to whom? Big Government and their control over our lives?

 

[candycorn]

That was then and this is now. There was one common enemy then that those who wanted a new republic free from a king or an ideologue. There are too few cool heads with no axe to grind. No one without an agenda would have enough support to be sent anywhere. It would be a clusterfuck and at best a waste of time..at worst...the most dangerous thing we as a nation could possibly embark on.

I would not support it in any fashion. Mine and possibly your ancestors did not fight and give their lives and blood to have some 21st century halfwits screw with the best document ever written.

Thats a perfectly valid position to take except those "halfwits" as you call them are, I suppose, the ones running the government and our current document leaves nearly every fiscal concern and a great many concerns Americans in 2011 find important to interpretation.

I really do not wish to re-write the Constitution from the ground up.
I do think there needs to be iron-handed guidelines so the "halfwits" can do very little damage.

For example, how high can our debt ceiling go? Does anybody know? Of course not. Put that in the Constitution and you now have the checks and balances of a court being able to strike laws that spend more money than is constitutionally mandated. Currently, the Congressional "halfwits" can, in theory, raise the debt ceiling to 100 bazillion batrillion battallion gazillion and one cent if they want and constitutionally, there isn't any check on what they do.

Would you agree that spending is out of control?
I would.When a horse is out of control, you pull back on the reins. If you're smart, you don't jerk them...you ease up a little at a time. This is a jerk of the reins to be sure however, due to the vagueness of the document, the rider is out of control with no willingness to tug on the reins. Gently. So we need to have it jerked, and for the rider to get thrown.

Amendments to the effect of what I am speaking of would be dandy. However, I think fiscal matters are only one symptom of a malady that infects the country.

This isn't a "state" we are talking about. A constitutional amendment to cap the debt would be fatal. You don't know what can happen. You don't know what stupid thing some asshole or group of assholes can and or will do in the future that will force us to deal with. Having lived as long as I have there is one thing for certain.. Greedy, stupid people are born every day. Stupid politicians are being bred right along with them. It's like a never ending supply of drunken teenagers that get the car keys and promise to be good. They cannot help themselves from finding newer and more destructive ways to fuck with our family. Do you think this recent financial collapse is the last or the worst of it? I don't believe THAT for a second. Nope....we have to remain flexible to pay for whatever the future brings. The only recourse is to try to prevent disaster from happening. That isn't very likely as history has shown..over...and over..and over again.

What many cannot or refuse to imagine is what this country would be like right here and now if all of the financial markets completely collapsed as they surely would have if we had not intervened with a huge debt to our future.

You cannot legislate intelligence or predict the future. All we know for sure is that we will overcome anything that comes along. At some level there is no "tightening the belt" that will solve the problem. Who is going to put their life on hold and donate 95% of all of their assets to right the ship within one calender year? That's what it would have taken to "fix" the last disaster ...Nope..as sad as the reality was...we had to defer most of it and make payments. If I were you "we" need to make sure the potential for disaster is PREVENTED. I don't see that happening soon so "we" better just accept disaster until we become adult enough to regulate the stupid and greedy.

So, if I can cut to the chase of what you're saying...

"We're doomed and trying to fix it will doom us further?"

 

[candycorn]

When you live under a system that was devised prior to street lights; is anybody surprised that we have problems? I'm not for gutting the government...its the best in the world (believe it or not). I am for updating the God Damn constitution to embrace the bedrock realities we face today.

It only works when persons of good faith serve. The parties have corrupted the process to the point of no return I'm afraid.

They run the elections; they appoint the electors who ultimately vote for President and Vice President; they actually negotiate the rules of debates at least at the Presidential level whereas the League of Women Voters once held that sacred of all electoral traditions, and they generally work to eliminate all moderates from the process.

No mention is made in the Constitution about political parties so they are not doing anything unconstitutional; they are, however, often times not acting in the best interest of the American people as a whole or the citizens of their States or Districts in the micro.

Take redistricting for example. Congressional districts are drawn to protect seats for whoever is doing the drawing. A constitutional order could change this to prevent such "gerrymandering". It should be a lottery of zip codes held every 6 years in my view (or at least 10 years as it is done now). Geographical restrictions should be damned. Currently Trent Franks represents part of suburban Phoenix...he also represents the Grand Canyon/Lake Mead area. Currently they don't give a damn about geography....what would it hurt? This should be job #1 of anybody who actually wants to fix the system instead of just bitching about it. Eventually a Dem will get a heavily Red zip code. He or she may get voted out. But maybe he or she will have to listen to a different voice from time to time...maybe they will change a few minds themselves. It's called leadership. It's called holding your elected officials feet to the fire. The best case is an informed citizenry.

Part of the problem is this idiotically stupid gerrymandering.

he he he...the current system or mine? LOL.

 

[HUGGY]

Thats a perfectly valid position to take except those "halfwits" as you call them are, I suppose, the ones running the government and our current document leaves nearly every fiscal concern and a great many concerns Americans in 2011 find important to interpretation.

I really do not wish to re-write the Constitution from the ground up.
I do think there needs to be iron-handed guidelines so the "halfwits" can do very little damage.

For example, how high can our debt ceiling go? Does anybody know? Of course not. Put that in the Constitution and you now have the checks and balances of a court being able to strike laws that spend more money than is constitutionally mandated. Currently, the Congressional "halfwits" can, in theory, raise the debt ceiling to 100 bazillion batrillion battallion gazillion and one cent if they want and constitutionally, there isn't any check on what they do.

Would you agree that spending is out of control?
I would.When a horse is out of control, you pull back on the reins. If you're smart, you don't jerk them...you ease up a little at a time. This is a jerk of the reins to be sure however, due to the vagueness of the document, the rider is out of control with no willingness to tug on the reins. Gently. So we need to have it jerked, and for the rider to get thrown.

Amendments to the effect of what I am speaking of would be dandy. However, I think fiscal matters are only one symptom of a malady that infects the country.

This isn't a "state" we are talking about. A constitutional amendment to cap the debt would be fatal. You don't know what can happen. You don't know what stupid thing some asshole or group of assholes can and or will do in the future that will force us to deal with. Having lived as long as I have there is one thing for certain.. Greedy, stupid people are born every day. Stupid politicians are being bred right along with them. It's like a never ending supply of drunken teenagers that get the car keys and promise to be good. They cannot help themselves from finding newer and more destructive ways to fuck with our family. Do you think this recent financial collapse is the last or the worst of it? I don't believe THAT for a second. Nope....we have to remain flexible to pay for whatever the future brings. The only recourse is to try to prevent disaster from happening. That isn't very likely as history has shown..over...and over..and over again.

What many cannot or refuse to imagine is what this country would be like right here and now if all of the financial markets completely collapsed as they surely would have if we had not intervened with a huge debt to our future.

You cannot legislate intelligence or predict the future. All we know for sure is that we will overcome anything that comes along. At some level there is no "tightening the belt" that will solve the problem. Who is going to put their life on hold and donate 95% of all of their assets to right the ship within one calender year? That's what it would have taken to "fix" the last disaster ...Nope..as sad as the reality was...we had to defer most of it and make payments. If I were you "we" need to make sure the potential for disaster is PREVENTED. I don't see that happening soon so "we" better just accept disaster until we become adult enough to regulate the stupid and greedy.

So, if I can cut to the chase of what you're saying...

"We're doomed and trying to fix it will doom us further?"

Until we get serious about controlling the excesses of our capitalist system...yes. I wouldn't say doomed..exactly.. But crushed under debt caused by our inability to prevent the actual causes of our grief...for sure.

 

[candycorn]

This isn't a "state" we are talking about. A constitutional amendment to cap the debt would be fatal. You don't know what can happen. You don't know what stupid thing some asshole or group of assholes can and or will do in the future that will force us to deal with. Having lived as long as I have there is one thing for certain.. Greedy, stupid people are born every day. Stupid politicians are being bred right along with them. It's like a never ending supply of drunken teenagers that get the car keys and promise to be good. They cannot help themselves from finding newer and more destructive ways to fuck with our family. Do you think this recent financial collapse is the last or the worst of it? I don't believe THAT for a second. Nope....we have to remain flexible to pay for whatever the future brings. The only recourse is to try to prevent disaster from happening. That isn't very likely as history has shown..over...and over..and over again.

What many cannot or refuse to imagine is what this country would be like right here and now if all of the financial markets completely collapsed as they surely would have if we had not intervened with a huge debt to our future.

You cannot legislate intelligence or predict the future. All we know for sure is that we will overcome anything that comes along. At some level there is no "tightening the belt" that will solve the problem. Who is going to put their life on hold and donate 95% of all of their assets to right the ship within one calender year? That's what it would have taken to "fix" the last disaster ...Nope..as sad as the reality was...we had to defer most of it and make payments. If I were you "we" need to make sure the potential for disaster is PREVENTED. I don't see that happening soon so "we" better just accept disaster until we become adult enough to regulate the stupid and greedy.

So, if I can cut to the chase of what you're saying...

"We're doomed and trying to fix it will doom us further?"

Until we get serious about controlling the excesses of our capitalist system...yes. I wouldn't say doomed..exactly.. But crushed under debt caused by our inability to prevent the actual causes of our grief...for sure.

And the remedy is hoping people we elect do the right thing? That doesn't seem to have worked in the last generation or so.

I think its time for some hard and fast rules that are not open to interpretation. Maybe a constitutional limit on debt isn't the best idea, maybe it is...but no rules and rules open to interpretation have not been of much benefit as of late. If the remedy is to hope for the best and hope that somehow they are going to "get serious" without being forced to; I think we are doomed.

But your opinion is your own. And you state it with what appears to be sober reflection. Thanks.

 

[bripat9643]

Until we get serious about controlling the excesses of our capitalist system...yes. I wouldn't say doomed..exactly.. But crushed under debt caused by our inability to prevent the actual causes of our grief...for sure.

the "excesses" are all in the government: Excess regulation. Excess spending, Excess taxation, Excess control of private citizens and businesses.

 

[bripat9643]

Hamilton uncategorically states that all congressional powers are enumerated and that the very existence of these enumerations alone makes any belief that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires nonsensical. If such broad congressional power had been the original intent, the constitutionally specified powers would have been worthless. In other words, why even enumerate any powers at all if the General Welfare clause could trump them?

Source...

BINGO!

That argument is irrefutable.

 

[The T]

Until we get serious about controlling the excesses of our capitalist system...yes. I wouldn't say doomed..exactly.. But crushed under debt caused by our inability to prevent the actual causes of our grief...for sure.

the "excesses" are all in the government: Excess regulation. Excess spending, Excess taxation, Excess control of private citizens and businesses.

Huggy doesn't care...until it affects him...then he like the rest of these Statists? Will scream like stuffed pigs when they get what they want...and realize they were wrong...when liberty is a faded memory.

 

[lvcabbie]

Part of the problem is this idiotically stupid gerrymandering.

yes! yes! yes!

That is EXACTLY why people MUST become involved in state and local politics!!!

It matters that we examine the record of EVERY politician - judges as well. What good does it do to have local councils or state legislatures enact laws when voters elect judges of such radical beliefs they overturn anything that doesn't fit the liberal/progressing agenda.

 

[HUGGY]

So, if I can cut to the chase of what you're saying...

"We're doomed and trying to fix it will doom us further?"

Until we get serious about controlling the excesses of our capitalist system...yes. I wouldn't say doomed..exactly.. But crushed under debt caused by our inability to prevent the actual causes of our grief...for sure.

And the remedy is hoping people we elect do the right thing? That doesn't seem to have worked in the last generation or so.

I think its time for some hard and fast rules that are not open to interpretation. Maybe a constitutional limit on debt isn't the best idea, maybe it is...but no rules and rules open to interpretation have not been of much benefit as of late. If the remedy is to hope for the best and hope that somehow they are going to "get serious" without being forced to; I think we are doomed.

But your opinion is your own. And you state it with what appears to be sober reflection. Thanks.

In my world...invention and small business.. true conservatism is not whining about being taxed on making a fortune...it is managing the "business model" successfully so it can make a fortune. We are long on after the fact crybabies and short on competent managers preventing disaster. And being from a farm...a good farm or ranch owner doesn't spend all his energy crying about who left the barn door open and just let the horses and cattle run free after they escape. First of all he makes sure his fucking barn door is closed but when a storm accidentally blows it open he gets busy and does his best to recover his livestock and his neighbors help..without whining about it.

 

[bripat9643]

In my world...invention and small business.. true conservatism is not whining about being taxed on making a fortune...it is managing the "business model" successfully so it can make a fortune. We are long on after the fact crybabies and short on competent managers preventing disaster. And being from a farm...a good farm or ranch owner doesn't spend all his energy crying about who left the barn door open and just let the horses and cattle run free after they escape. First of all he makes sure his fucking barn door is closed but when a storm accidentally blows it open he gets busy and does his best to recover his livestock and his neighbors help..without whining about it.

So a "true conservative" is someone who doesn't object to socialism?

ROFL!

Liberal Dictionary
======================
True conservative - socialist.

 

[Truthmatters]

In my world...invention and small business.. true conservatism is not whining about being taxed on making a fortune...it is managing the "business model" successfully so it can make a fortune. We are long on after the fact crybabies and short on competent managers preventing disaster. And being from a farm...a good farm or ranch owner doesn't spend all his energy crying about who left the barn door open and just let the horses and cattle run free after they escape. First of all he makes sure his fucking barn door is closed but when a storm accidentally blows it open he gets busy and does his best to recover his livestock and his neighbors help..without whining about it.

So a "true conservative" is someone who doesn't object to socialism?

ROFL!

Liberal Dictionary
======================
True conservative - socialist.

why dont you tell us what you know about the industrial revolution?