Debate Now Illegals and Social Security. Good thing? Bad thing?

[Foxfyre]

.
'THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED: If it is true that illegals will be eligible for social security benefits, are you okay with persons in the country illegally being able to draw social security benefits even thought they knowingly worked with a fraudulent social security number? Why or why not?'

If it is true that illegals will be eligible to become slaves of the State, I would hope they would decline to participate. The smart ones are under the radar.

That is my opinion anyway.
.

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

 

[Ravi]

Yes, you did. But I'm not surprised at the lack of apology.

I apologize when I do something warranting apology. In this case I engaged in no personal insult and no ad hominem. You however are off topic now and just engaged in ad hominem which I will report if it continues. Okay?

Go right ahead. Report yourself while you're at it.

And once again, illegal immigrants cannot collect SS benefits until and unless they become lawful citizens.

In rebuttal:

. . ,Q: How do they claim benefits if the law prohibits illegals from collecting?

A: There are several ways it happens. One has to do with the type of SSN that was used for employment. The 2004 law requires work authorization in order to claim Social Security. But the law pertains only to individuals who received their SSN after January 1, 2004. If the individual was issued an SSN prior to January 1, 2004, like the 7 million non-work SSNs issued prior to 2003, the 2004 law prohibiting payment of Social Security does not apply. According to the Congressional Research Service and the Government Accountability Office, that group does not need to have ever received legal work authorization in order to claim benefits — they may have worked illegally their entire careers.

As long as all other qualifications are met, and they have evidence of their earnings, like W2s, they may file a claim for Social Security benefits. Others who receive an SSN after 2004 must have work authorization to claim benefits. Yet even people who worked illegally for many years sometimes later change status. That can occur even without an amnesty, especially if the illegals have children who were born in this country. Because the children are born as U.S. citizens, when they become adults they can sponsor their parents to stay in the U.S. legally and to receive work authorization. If their parents kept W2s and evidence earnings, those work credits will be re-instated to their new SSNs. Once they receive work authorization, noncitizens can later file a claim for Social Security benefits. . . .
How Undocumented Workers Are Becoming Entitled To Social Security The Senior Citizens LeagueThe Senior Citizens League​

They have to be US citizens or legal residents to collect the benefits.

Then provide some evidence that the sources I have provided are wrong. Otherwise I will have to consider those informed opinions to have more credibility than simply saying over and over that it isn't so.

I already did pages ago when I pointed out that on the SSA website it is stated that one must be a legal citizen or permanent resident to collect SS benefits.

The blurb you posted pretends to be about illegal immigrants but it isn't. It is about alien workers, those that came here and worked legally on a visa as a non-immigrant. You can read about the program here. International Programs - U.S. International Social Security Agreements

They are not what you are calling illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants cannot collect benefits unless and until they become legal citizens or permanent residents.

 

[Foxfyre]

I apologize when I do something warranting apology. In this case I engaged in no personal insult and no ad hominem. You however are off topic now and just engaged in ad hominem which I will report if it continues. Okay?

Go right ahead. Report yourself while you're at it.

And once again, illegal immigrants cannot collect SS benefits until and unless they become lawful citizens.

In rebuttal:

. . ,Q: How do they claim benefits if the law prohibits illegals from collecting?

A: There are several ways it happens. One has to do with the type of SSN that was used for employment. The 2004 law requires work authorization in order to claim Social Security. But the law pertains only to individuals who received their SSN after January 1, 2004. If the individual was issued an SSN prior to January 1, 2004, like the 7 million non-work SSNs issued prior to 2003, the 2004 law prohibiting payment of Social Security does not apply. According to the Congressional Research Service and the Government Accountability Office, that group does not need to have ever received legal work authorization in order to claim benefits — they may have worked illegally their entire careers.

As long as all other qualifications are met, and they have evidence of their earnings, like W2s, they may file a claim for Social Security benefits. Others who receive an SSN after 2004 must have work authorization to claim benefits. Yet even people who worked illegally for many years sometimes later change status. That can occur even without an amnesty, especially if the illegals have children who were born in this country. Because the children are born as U.S. citizens, when they become adults they can sponsor their parents to stay in the U.S. legally and to receive work authorization. If their parents kept W2s and evidence earnings, those work credits will be re-instated to their new SSNs. Once they receive work authorization, noncitizens can later file a claim for Social Security benefits. . . .
How Undocumented Workers Are Becoming Entitled To Social Security The Senior Citizens LeagueThe Senior Citizens League​

They have to be US citizens or legal residents to collect the benefits.

Then provide some evidence that the sources I have provided are wrong. Otherwise I will have to consider those informed opinions to have more credibility than simply saying over and over that it isn't so.

I already did pages ago when I pointed out that on the SSA website it is stated that one must be a legal citizen or permanent resident to collect SS benefits.

The blurb you posted pretends to be about illegal immigrants but it isn't. It is about alien workers, those that came here and worked legally on a visa as a non-immigrant. You can read about the program here. International Programs - U.S. International Social Security Agreements

They are not what you are calling illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants cannot collect benefits unless and until they become legal citizens or permanent residents.

In case you haven't noticed, our President doesn't seem to be much concerned about following the law and has no reluctance to ignore laws he doesn't like and create new laws that he wants, most especially in the case of illegal immigration. I say that as a statement of fact and am placing no qualification on it as a good thing or bad thing as that is what this discussion is all about.

So even if members of Congress can't say whether his latest executive orders will grant social security benefits to illegals, however you define those illegals, and even if you ignore my posted discussion on whether social security numbers would enable illegals to legally work, the evidence is still out on whether illegals who are not currently eligible for social security will become eligible via the President's executive order.

 

[Ravi]

Go right ahead. Report yourself while you're at it.

And once again, illegal immigrants cannot collect SS benefits until and unless they become lawful citizens.

In rebuttal:

. . ,Q: How do they claim benefits if the law prohibits illegals from collecting?

A: There are several ways it happens. One has to do with the type of SSN that was used for employment. The 2004 law requires work authorization in order to claim Social Security. But the law pertains only to individuals who received their SSN after January 1, 2004. If the individual was issued an SSN prior to January 1, 2004, like the 7 million non-work SSNs issued prior to 2003, the 2004 law prohibiting payment of Social Security does not apply. According to the Congressional Research Service and the Government Accountability Office, that group does not need to have ever received legal work authorization in order to claim benefits — they may have worked illegally their entire careers.

As long as all other qualifications are met, and they have evidence of their earnings, like W2s, they may file a claim for Social Security benefits. Others who receive an SSN after 2004 must have work authorization to claim benefits. Yet even people who worked illegally for many years sometimes later change status. That can occur even without an amnesty, especially if the illegals have children who were born in this country. Because the children are born as U.S. citizens, when they become adults they can sponsor their parents to stay in the U.S. legally and to receive work authorization. If their parents kept W2s and evidence earnings, those work credits will be re-instated to their new SSNs. Once they receive work authorization, noncitizens can later file a claim for Social Security benefits. . . .
How Undocumented Workers Are Becoming Entitled To Social Security The Senior Citizens LeagueThe Senior Citizens League​

They have to be US citizens or legal residents to collect the benefits.

Then provide some evidence that the sources I have provided are wrong. Otherwise I will have to consider those informed opinions to have more credibility than simply saying over and over that it isn't so.

I already did pages ago when I pointed out that on the SSA website it is stated that one must be a legal citizen or permanent resident to collect SS benefits.

The blurb you posted pretends to be about illegal immigrants but it isn't. It is about alien workers, those that came here and worked legally on a visa as a non-immigrant. You can read about the program here. International Programs - U.S. International Social Security Agreements

They are not what you are calling illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants cannot collect benefits unless and until they become legal citizens or permanent residents.

In case you haven't noticed, our President doesn't seem to be much concerned about following the law and has no reluctance to ignore laws he doesn't like and create new laws that he wants, most especially in the case of illegal immigration. I say that as a statement of fact and am placing no qualification on it as a good thing or bad thing as that is what this discussion is all about.

So even if members of Congress can't say whether his latest executive orders will grant social security benefits to illegals, however you define those illegals, and even if you ignore my posted discussion on whether social security numbers would enable illegals to legally work, the evidence is still out on whether illegals who are not currently eligible for social security will become eligible via the President's executive order.

there is absolutely nothing in the executive order about collecting SS benefits. Nothing. This is all in your head. EVEN IF illegals could work legally, they still cannot collect the benefits until and unless they become legal.

 

[percysunshine]

.
'THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED: If it is true that illegals will be eligible for social security benefits, are you okay with persons in the country illegally being able to draw social security benefits even thought they knowingly worked with a fraudulent social security number? Why or why not?'

If it is true that illegals will be eligible to become slaves of the State, I would hope they would decline to participate. The smart ones are under the radar.

That is my opinion anyway.
.

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

.
I beg to disagree. Does your automobile insurance contract look anything like your contract with the State about your retirement income?

It does not.

Your turn.

.

 

[RKMBrown]

Why not read the actual source first instead of just the spin from a biased site?

Under Executive Action Immigrants Are Entitled To Social Security Benefits The Two-Way NPR

Katherine Vargas, a White House spokeswoman, told us in an email that once immigrants register under deferred action, they become taxpayers, contributing their "fair share into Social Security and Medicare."

"And only after they've paid taxes for over a decade will they become eligible for Social Security," Vargas wrote. "As taxpayers, deferred action recipients will pay into these systems and receive the same benefits on these issues as other taxpayers."

(It's worth pointing out that all taxpayers have to work for at least a decade to receive benefits.)

Vargas added that immigrants protected under Obama's plan will not receive other federal benefits such as welfare, food stamps, Medicaid or benefits under the Affordable Care Act.​

If they never contributed to SS they won't receive any benefits.

And unless they meet the minimum requirement of working and contributing for 10 years they won't receive any benefits.

So it looks like they will be paying their own way just like everyone else who receives SS does.

What difference does it make if they are paying taxes and making contributions?

How many of them are going to complain about "my money" being spent to provide healthcare for anyone else? Zero?

Sounds like they would just be grateful to be working hard and earning a living just like every other hardworking working American who doesn't feel "entitled" to what the government provides without having to pay taxes for it.

ROFL what a moronic point to the OP. Just because they have a SS number does not mean they are paying in. Many people receive checks that did not pay a dime for SS. Many people receive checks for their children who did not pay into it. The SS system is broken. This will bankrupt the system even faster.

 

[Ravi]

Why not read the actual source first instead of just the spin from a biased site?

Under Executive Action Immigrants Are Entitled To Social Security Benefits The Two-Way NPR

Katherine Vargas, a White House spokeswoman, told us in an email that once immigrants register under deferred action, they become taxpayers, contributing their "fair share into Social Security and Medicare."

"And only after they've paid taxes for over a decade will they become eligible for Social Security," Vargas wrote. "As taxpayers, deferred action recipients will pay into these systems and receive the same benefits on these issues as other taxpayers."

(It's worth pointing out that all taxpayers have to work for at least a decade to receive benefits.)

Vargas added that immigrants protected under Obama's plan will not receive other federal benefits such as welfare, food stamps, Medicaid or benefits under the Affordable Care Act.​

If they never contributed to SS they won't receive any benefits.

And unless they meet the minimum requirement of working and contributing for 10 years they won't receive any benefits.

So it looks like they will be paying their own way just like everyone else who receives SS does.

What difference does it make if they are paying taxes and making contributions?

How many of them are going to complain about "my money" being spent to provide healthcare for anyone else? Zero?

Sounds like they would just be grateful to be working hard and earning a living just like every other hardworking working American who doesn't feel "entitled" to what the government provides without having to pay taxes for it.

ROFL what a moronic point to the OP. Just because they have a SS number does not mean they are paying in. Many people receive checks that did not pay a dime for SS. Many people receive checks for their children who did not pay into it. The SS system is broken. This will bankrupt the system even faster.

If the spouse (or parent) paid into the system it is possible to get survivor benefits. Is that what you are talking about?

 

[Foxfyre]

In rebuttal:

. . ,Q: How do they claim benefits if the law prohibits illegals from collecting?

A: There are several ways it happens. One has to do with the type of SSN that was used for employment. The 2004 law requires work authorization in order to claim Social Security. But the law pertains only to individuals who received their SSN after January 1, 2004. If the individual was issued an SSN prior to January 1, 2004, like the 7 million non-work SSNs issued prior to 2003, the 2004 law prohibiting payment of Social Security does not apply. According to the Congressional Research Service and the Government Accountability Office, that group does not need to have ever received legal work authorization in order to claim benefits — they may have worked illegally their entire careers.

As long as all other qualifications are met, and they have evidence of their earnings, like W2s, they may file a claim for Social Security benefits. Others who receive an SSN after 2004 must have work authorization to claim benefits. Yet even people who worked illegally for many years sometimes later change status. That can occur even without an amnesty, especially if the illegals have children who were born in this country. Because the children are born as U.S. citizens, when they become adults they can sponsor their parents to stay in the U.S. legally and to receive work authorization. If their parents kept W2s and evidence earnings, those work credits will be re-instated to their new SSNs. Once they receive work authorization, noncitizens can later file a claim for Social Security benefits. . . .
How Undocumented Workers Are Becoming Entitled To Social Security The Senior Citizens LeagueThe Senior Citizens League​

They have to be US citizens or legal residents to collect the benefits.

Then provide some evidence that the sources I have provided are wrong. Otherwise I will have to consider those informed opinions to have more credibility than simply saying over and over that it isn't so.

I already did pages ago when I pointed out that on the SSA website it is stated that one must be a legal citizen or permanent resident to collect SS benefits.

The blurb you posted pretends to be about illegal immigrants but it isn't. It is about alien workers, those that came here and worked legally on a visa as a non-immigrant. You can read about the program here. International Programs - U.S. International Social Security Agreements

They are not what you are calling illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants cannot collect benefits unless and until they become legal citizens or permanent residents.

In case you haven't noticed, our President doesn't seem to be much concerned about following the law and has no reluctance to ignore laws he doesn't like and create new laws that he wants, most especially in the case of illegal immigration. I say that as a statement of fact and am placing no qualification on it as a good thing or bad thing as that is what this discussion is all about.

So even if members of Congress can't say whether his latest executive orders will grant social security benefits to illegals, however you define those illegals, and even if you ignore my posted discussion on whether social security numbers would enable illegals to legally work, the evidence is still out on whether illegals who are not currently eligible for social security will become eligible via the President's executive order.

there is absolutely nothing in the executive order about collecting SS benefits. Nothing. This is all in your head. EVEN IF illegals could work legally, they still cannot collect the benefits until and unless they become legal.

So why issue social security numbers at all? What is the purpose of an executive order authorizing illegals to receive social security numbers if they can't use them to collect social security?

This article does not specifically address illegals drawing social security benefits, but the suggestion is there that this would be possible by those receiving social security numbers:
Veteran U.S. senator to IRS No tax breaks for undocumented immigrants Fox News Latino

This article from the Daily Beast, a publication that consistently endorses the President's policies, also strongly suggests that those receiving the social security numbers under the President's executive order will be eligible to receive social security:
How Immigrants Will Save Social Security - The Daily Beast


And this article from the WashingtonExaminer, pretty much at the opposite end of the political spectrum, also supports that position:
Executive action allows illegal immigrants to raid Social Security WashingtonExaminer.com

 

[RKMBrown]

Why not read the actual source first instead of just the spin from a biased site?

Under Executive Action Immigrants Are Entitled To Social Security Benefits The Two-Way NPR

Katherine Vargas, a White House spokeswoman, told us in an email that once immigrants register under deferred action, they become taxpayers, contributing their "fair share into Social Security and Medicare."

"And only after they've paid taxes for over a decade will they become eligible for Social Security," Vargas wrote. "As taxpayers, deferred action recipients will pay into these systems and receive the same benefits on these issues as other taxpayers."

(It's worth pointing out that all taxpayers have to work for at least a decade to receive benefits.)

Vargas added that immigrants protected under Obama's plan will not receive other federal benefits such as welfare, food stamps, Medicaid or benefits under the Affordable Care Act.​

If they never contributed to SS they won't receive any benefits.

And unless they meet the minimum requirement of working and contributing for 10 years they won't receive any benefits.

So it looks like they will be paying their own way just like everyone else who receives SS does.

What difference does it make if they are paying taxes and making contributions?

How many of them are going to complain about "my money" being spent to provide healthcare for anyone else? Zero?

Sounds like they would just be grateful to be working hard and earning a living just like every other hardworking working American who doesn't feel "entitled" to what the government provides without having to pay taxes for it.

ROFL what a moronic point to the OP. Just because they have a SS number does not mean they are paying in. Many people receive checks that did not pay a dime for SS. Many people receive checks for their children who did not pay into it. The SS system is broken. This will bankrupt the system even faster.

If the spouse (or parent) paid into the system it is possible to get survivor benefits. Is that what you are talking about?

Yes... For example, if Obama decides to credit 1.5 years of work that was paid into SS in the past using a fraudulent SS number, then the illegal children of any illegal that dies this year who had 1.5years of 5k a year income in the USA, whether they are currently in some other country or not, can file a claim for survivor benefits.

 

[Derideo_Te]

.
'THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED: If it is true that illegals will be eligible for social security benefits, are you okay with persons in the country illegally being able to draw social security benefits even thought they knowingly worked with a fraudulent social security number? Why or why not?'

If it is true that illegals will be eligible to become slaves of the State, I would hope they would decline to participate. The smart ones are under the radar.

That is my opinion anyway.
.

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Go right ahead. Report yourself while you're at it.

And once again, illegal immigrants cannot collect SS benefits until and unless they become lawful citizens.

In rebuttal:

. . ,Q: How do they claim benefits if the law prohibits illegals from collecting?

A: There are several ways it happens. One has to do with the type of SSN that was used for employment. The 2004 law requires work authorization in order to claim Social Security. But the law pertains only to individuals who received their SSN after January 1, 2004. If the individual was issued an SSN prior to January 1, 2004, like the 7 million non-work SSNs issued prior to 2003, the 2004 law prohibiting payment of Social Security does not apply. According to the Congressional Research Service and the Government Accountability Office, that group does not need to have ever received legal work authorization in order to claim benefits — they may have worked illegally their entire careers.

As long as all other qualifications are met, and they have evidence of their earnings, like W2s, they may file a claim for Social Security benefits. Others who receive an SSN after 2004 must have work authorization to claim benefits. Yet even people who worked illegally for many years sometimes later change status. That can occur even without an amnesty, especially if the illegals have children who were born in this country. Because the children are born as U.S. citizens, when they become adults they can sponsor their parents to stay in the U.S. legally and to receive work authorization. If their parents kept W2s and evidence earnings, those work credits will be re-instated to their new SSNs. Once they receive work authorization, noncitizens can later file a claim for Social Security benefits. . . .
How Undocumented Workers Are Becoming Entitled To Social Security The Senior Citizens LeagueThe Senior Citizens League​

They have to be US citizens or legal residents to collect the benefits.

Then provide some evidence that the sources I have provided are wrong. Otherwise I will have to consider those informed opinions to have more credibility than simply saying over and over that it isn't so.

I already did pages ago when I pointed out that on the SSA website it is stated that one must be a legal citizen or permanent resident to collect SS benefits.

The blurb you posted pretends to be about illegal immigrants but it isn't. It is about alien workers, those that came here and worked legally on a visa as a non-immigrant. You can read about the program here. International Programs - U.S. International Social Security Agreements

They are not what you are calling illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants cannot collect benefits unless and until they become legal citizens or permanent residents.

In case you haven't noticed, our President doesn't seem to be much concerned about following the law and has no reluctance to ignore laws he doesn't like and create new laws that he wants, most especially in the case of illegal immigration. I say that as a statement of fact and am placing no qualification on it as a good thing or bad thing as that is what this discussion is all about.

So even if members of Congress can't say whether his latest executive orders will grant social security benefits to illegals, however you define those illegals, and even if you ignore my posted discussion on whether social security numbers would enable illegals to legally work, the evidence is still out on whether illegals who are not currently eligible for social security will become eligible via the President's executive order.

In case you haven't noticed, our President doesn't seem to be much concerned about following the law and has no reluctance to ignore laws he doesn't like and create new laws that he wants, most especially in the case of illegal immigration. I say that as a statement of fact and am placing no qualification on it as a good thing or bad thing as that is what this discussion is all about.

Opinion that assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[Derideo_Te]

.
'THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED: If it is true that illegals will be eligible for social security benefits, are you okay with persons in the country illegally being able to draw social security benefits even thought they knowingly worked with a fraudulent social security number? Why or why not?'

If it is true that illegals will be eligible to become slaves of the State, I would hope they would decline to participate. The smart ones are under the radar.

That is my opinion anyway.
.

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

.
I beg to disagree. Does your automobile insurance contract look anything like your contract with the State about your retirement income?

It does not.

Your turn.

.

See post #70.

 

[Derideo_Te]

So why issue social security numbers at all? What is the purpose of an executive order authorizing illegals to receive social security numbers if they can't use them to collect social security?

They need a legitimate SSN in order to obtain work. Anyone who has ever been an employer should know that. In fact anyone who has ever been employed should know it too since all legitimate employers ask for an SSN in order to be able to file payroll taxes with the IRS.

 

[Foxfyre]

.
'THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED: If it is true that illegals will be eligible for social security benefits, are you okay with persons in the country illegally being able to draw social security benefits even thought they knowingly worked with a fraudulent social security number? Why or why not?'

If it is true that illegals will be eligible to become slaves of the State, I would hope they would decline to participate. The smart ones are under the radar.

That is my opinion anyway.
.

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

You can spam 50 pages with endless posts copied and pasted from other sources and it won't make social security into an 'insurance policy.' If you really want to understand the difference, there is a really good explanation here:
What is the difference between insurance and entitlement - Avvo.com

 

[Foxfyre]

So why issue social security numbers at all? What is the purpose of an executive order authorizing illegals to receive social security numbers if they can't use them to collect social security?

They need a legitimate SSN in order to obtain work. Anyone who has ever been an employer should know that. In fact anyone who has ever been employed should know it too since all legitimate employers ask for an SSN in order to be able to file payroll taxes with the IRS.

No they don't. All they need is something similar to a green card if they are not going to be eligible for social security.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Why not read the actual source first instead of just the spin from a biased site?

Under Executive Action Immigrants Are Entitled To Social Security Benefits The Two-Way NPR

Katherine Vargas, a White House spokeswoman, told us in an email that once immigrants register under deferred action, they become taxpayers, contributing their "fair share into Social Security and Medicare."

"And only after they've paid taxes for over a decade will they become eligible for Social Security," Vargas wrote. "As taxpayers, deferred action recipients will pay into these systems and receive the same benefits on these issues as other taxpayers."

(It's worth pointing out that all taxpayers have to work for at least a decade to receive benefits.)

Vargas added that immigrants protected under Obama's plan will not receive other federal benefits such as welfare, food stamps, Medicaid or benefits under the Affordable Care Act.​

If they never contributed to SS they won't receive any benefits.

And unless they meet the minimum requirement of working and contributing for 10 years they won't receive any benefits.

So it looks like they will be paying their own way just like everyone else who receives SS does.

What difference does it make if they are paying taxes and making contributions?

How many of them are going to complain about "my money" being spent to provide healthcare for anyone else? Zero?

Sounds like they would just be grateful to be working hard and earning a living just like every other hardworking working American who doesn't feel "entitled" to what the government provides without having to pay taxes for it.

ROFL what a moronic point to the OP. Just because they have a SS number does not mean they are paying in. Many people receive checks that did not pay a dime for SS. Many people receive checks for their children who did not pay into it. The SS system is broken. This will bankrupt the system even faster.

If the spouse (or parent) paid into the system it is possible to get survivor benefits. Is that what you are talking about?

Yes... For example, if Obama decides to credit 1.5 years of work that was paid into SS in the past using a fraudulent SS number, then the illegal children of any illegal that dies this year who had 1.5years of 5k a year income in the USA, whether they are currently in some other country or not, can file a claim for survivor benefits.

Nope! In order to collect SS either directly or indirectly the qualification is 10 work credits. Each credit is a quarter so that means 2.5 years of working and paying into SS.

 

[RKMBrown]

.
'THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED: If it is true that illegals will be eligible for social security benefits, are you okay with persons in the country illegally being able to draw social security benefits even thought they knowingly worked with a fraudulent social security number? Why or why not?'

If it is true that illegals will be eligible to become slaves of the State, I would hope they would decline to participate. The smart ones are under the radar.

That is my opinion anyway.
.

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

ROFL... SS is a so so program for the poor, but a horrible program for the middle and up classes. SS is a horrible return on investment for the vast majority of people. Further, the people who are benefiting from SS only had to pay 1/2 as much as a percentage of income as current generations.

 

[RKMBrown]

Why not read the actual source first instead of just the spin from a biased site?

Under Executive Action Immigrants Are Entitled To Social Security Benefits The Two-Way NPR

Katherine Vargas, a White House spokeswoman, told us in an email that once immigrants register under deferred action, they become taxpayers, contributing their "fair share into Social Security and Medicare."

"And only after they've paid taxes for over a decade will they become eligible for Social Security," Vargas wrote. "As taxpayers, deferred action recipients will pay into these systems and receive the same benefits on these issues as other taxpayers."

(It's worth pointing out that all taxpayers have to work for at least a decade to receive benefits.)

Vargas added that immigrants protected under Obama's plan will not receive other federal benefits such as welfare, food stamps, Medicaid or benefits under the Affordable Care Act.​

If they never contributed to SS they won't receive any benefits.

And unless they meet the minimum requirement of working and contributing for 10 years they won't receive any benefits.

So it looks like they will be paying their own way just like everyone else who receives SS does.

What difference does it make if they are paying taxes and making contributions?

How many of them are going to complain about "my money" being spent to provide healthcare for anyone else? Zero?

Sounds like they would just be grateful to be working hard and earning a living just like every other hardworking working American who doesn't feel "entitled" to what the government provides without having to pay taxes for it.

ROFL what a moronic point to the OP. Just because they have a SS number does not mean they are paying in. Many people receive checks that did not pay a dime for SS. Many people receive checks for their children who did not pay into it. The SS system is broken. This will bankrupt the system even faster.

If the spouse (or parent) paid into the system it is possible to get survivor benefits. Is that what you are talking about?

Yes... For example, if Obama decides to credit 1.5 years of work that was paid into SS in the past using a fraudulent SS number, then the illegal children of any illegal that dies this year who had 1.5years of 5k a year income in the USA, whether they are currently in some other country or not, can file a claim for survivor benefits.

Nope! In order to collect SS either directly or indirectly the qualification is 10 work credits. Each credit is a quarter so that means 2.5 years of working and paying into SS.

Yeah I thought so too... However, see here:

Benefits Planner Number Of Credits Needed For Survivors Benefits
"Under a special rule, we can pay benefits to your children and your spouse who is caring for the children even if you don't have the number of credits needed. They can get benefits if you have credits for one and one-half year's work (6 credits) in the three years just before your death."

 

[Derideo_Te]

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

You can spam 50 pages with endless posts copied and pasted from other sources and it won't make social security into an 'insurance policy.' If you really want to understand the difference, there is a really good explanation here:
What is the difference between insurance and entitlement - Avvo.com

Reported for violation of SDZ OP no ad hom rule.

Link does not address Social Security Act therefore it is irrelevant.

 

[percysunshine]

.
'THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED: If it is true that illegals will be eligible for social security benefits, are you okay with persons in the country illegally being able to draw social security benefits even thought they knowingly worked with a fraudulent social security number? Why or why not?'

If it is true that illegals will be eligible to become slaves of the State, I would hope they would decline to participate. The smart ones are under the radar.

That is my opinion anyway.
.

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

.
I beg to disagree. Does your automobile insurance contract look anything like your contract with the State about your retirement income?

It does not.

Your turn.

.

See post #70.

I stand corrected. It is a Universal Life Policy involuntarily taken out with a bankrupt insurance company who is spending the premiums faster than the liabilities are accruing.

The end game is the same. And any immigrant who signs up for the con is a moron.

.