If Jews have rights to Israel because of history, do American Indians have rights to America...?

[peach174]

Don't forget about the Treaty of Lausanne which was first signed on 24 July 1923.

 

[montelatici]

Well, any entanglements contrary to the Covenant that the British had were dissolved as per article 20 of the Covenant.

"ARTICLE 20.
The Members of the League severally agree that this Covenant is accepted as abrogating all obligations or understandings inter se which are inconsistent with the terms thereof, and solemnly undertake that they will not hereafter enter into any engagements inconsistent with the terms thereof.

In case any Member of the League shall, before becoming a Member of the League, have undertaken any obligations inconsistent with the terms of this Covenant, it shall be the duty of such Member to take immediate steps to procure its release from such obligations."

Avalon Project - The Covenant of the League of Nations

 

[Humanity]

Hebrews are unknown in history, but American Indians are historical. No ancient history mentions Hebrews.

No history prior to about 1500 mentions the Amerindians, so where do you get your ancient history from. The Jews or Hebrews where known about 2000 years ago

No they were, just in the bible and jewish wrote history.

Wrong as people from Europe travelled overland to the M.E 3000 years ago. 2000 years ago the Roman empire conquered the holy land, is that Jewish wrote history as well. Have you heard of the spice trail that brought spices from India and China overland to Europe that was going on before the birth of Jesus.

History does not begin and end with islam you know, they were the last of a long line of arrivals.

And history does not begin and end with Judaism either...

The sooner that people start accepting that, well, there were human beings BEFORE Judaism AND Islam in what we now call the middle east the better!

It's utter BS that EITHER side should stake a claim on a piece of land based on ancient historical beliefs... Particularly, based upon the words of some made up entity!

'Modern' history doesn't really have a beginning, it is an evolution of historical events...

To suggest that one specific group has more rights to a piece of land than another is just ludicrous!

The British won the Turkish Ottoman war and it was theirs to do with as they pleased and they decided to give it to the Jews.
Get over it. The Jews will remain right where they are.

Well done on the semi accurate history lesson...

However you missed the point completely didn't you!

Land will always be 'land' and, historically, changes hands every few hundred years through war and conquest!

Suggesting that a piece of land belongs to one peoples or another is utter BS!

 

[peach174]

No history prior to about 1500 mentions the Amerindians, so where do you get your ancient history from. The Jews or Hebrews where known about 2000 years ago

No they were, just in the bible and jewish wrote history.

Wrong as people from Europe travelled overland to the M.E 3000 years ago. 2000 years ago the Roman empire conquered the holy land, is that Jewish wrote history as well. Have you heard of the spice trail that brought spices from India and China overland to Europe that was going on before the birth of Jesus.

History does not begin and end with islam you know, they were the last of a long line of arrivals.

And history does not begin and end with Judaism either...

The sooner that people start accepting that, well, there were human beings BEFORE Judaism AND Islam in what we now call the middle east the better!

It's utter BS that EITHER side should stake a claim on a piece of land based on ancient historical beliefs... Particularly, based upon the words of some made up entity!

'Modern' history doesn't really have a beginning, it is an evolution of historical events...

To suggest that one specific group has more rights to a piece of land than another is just ludicrous!

The British won the Turkish Ottoman war and it was theirs to do with as they pleased and they decided to give it to the Jews.
Get over it. The Jews will remain right where they are.

Well done on the semi accurate history lesson...

However you missed the point completely didn't you!

Land will always be 'land' and, historically, changes hands every few hundred years through war and conquest!

Suggesting that a piece of land belongs to one peoples or another is utter BS!

You're entitled to your opinion, even though you are wrong.

 

[jillian]

No they were, just in the bible and jewish wrote history.

Wrong as people from Europe travelled overland to the M.E 3000 years ago. 2000 years ago the Roman empire conquered the holy land, is that Jewish wrote history as well. Have you heard of the spice trail that brought spices from India and China overland to Europe that was going on before the birth of Jesus.

History does not begin and end with islam you know, they were the last of a long line of arrivals.

And history does not begin and end with Judaism either...

The sooner that people start accepting that, well, there were human beings BEFORE Judaism AND Islam in what we now call the middle east the better!

It's utter BS that EITHER side should stake a claim on a piece of land based on ancient historical beliefs... Particularly, based upon the words of some made up entity!

'Modern' history doesn't really have a beginning, it is an evolution of historical events...

To suggest that one specific group has more rights to a piece of land than another is just ludicrous!

The British won the Turkish Ottoman war and it was theirs to do with as they pleased and they decided to give it to the Jews.
Get over it. The Jews will remain right where they are.

Well done on the semi accurate history lesson...

However you missed the point completely didn't you!

Land will always be 'land' and, historically, changes hands every few hundred years through war and conquest!

Suggesting that a piece of land belongs to one peoples or another is utter BS!

You're entitled to your opinion, even though you are wrong.

he's entitled to his own opinion, not to his own facts.

 

[Humanity]

No they were, just in the bible and jewish wrote history.

Wrong as people from Europe travelled overland to the M.E 3000 years ago. 2000 years ago the Roman empire conquered the holy land, is that Jewish wrote history as well. Have you heard of the spice trail that brought spices from India and China overland to Europe that was going on before the birth of Jesus.

History does not begin and end with islam you know, they were the last of a long line of arrivals.

And history does not begin and end with Judaism either...

The sooner that people start accepting that, well, there were human beings BEFORE Judaism AND Islam in what we now call the middle east the better!

It's utter BS that EITHER side should stake a claim on a piece of land based on ancient historical beliefs... Particularly, based upon the words of some made up entity!

'Modern' history doesn't really have a beginning, it is an evolution of historical events...

To suggest that one specific group has more rights to a piece of land than another is just ludicrous!

The British won the Turkish Ottoman war and it was theirs to do with as they pleased and they decided to give it to the Jews.
Get over it. The Jews will remain right where they are.

Well done on the semi accurate history lesson...

However you missed the point completely didn't you!

Land will always be 'land' and, historically, changes hands every few hundred years through war and conquest!

Suggesting that a piece of land belongs to one peoples or another is utter BS!

You're entitled to your opinion, even though you are wrong.

hahaha really?

So it's NOT historical fact that empires/civilisations/countries have been conquered and changed hands every few hundred years?

Suggest you go and read some elementary history books and come back with some knowledge!

There are VERY few 'indigenous' peoples still living on 'their' homeland... And the Jews certainly aren't one of them!

 

[peach174]

Wrong as people from Europe travelled overland to the M.E 3000 years ago. 2000 years ago the Roman empire conquered the holy land, is that Jewish wrote history as well. Have you heard of the spice trail that brought spices from India and China overland to Europe that was going on before the birth of Jesus.

History does not begin and end with islam you know, they were the last of a long line of arrivals.

And history does not begin and end with Judaism either...

The sooner that people start accepting that, well, there were human beings BEFORE Judaism AND Islam in what we now call the middle east the better!

It's utter BS that EITHER side should stake a claim on a piece of land based on ancient historical beliefs... Particularly, based upon the words of some made up entity!

'Modern' history doesn't really have a beginning, it is an evolution of historical events...

To suggest that one specific group has more rights to a piece of land than another is just ludicrous!

The British won the Turkish Ottoman war and it was theirs to do with as they pleased and they decided to give it to the Jews.
Get over it. The Jews will remain right where they are.

Well done on the semi accurate history lesson...

However you missed the point completely didn't you!

Land will always be 'land' and, historically, changes hands every few hundred years through war and conquest!

Suggesting that a piece of land belongs to one peoples or another is utter BS!

You're entitled to your opinion, even though you are wrong.

hahaha really?

So it's NOT historical fact that empires/civilisations/countries have been conquered and changed hands every few hundred years?

Suggest you go and read some elementary history books and come back with some knowledge!

There are VERY few 'indigenous' peoples still living on 'their' homeland... And the Jews certainly aren't one of them!

You are the one who just accused me wrongly.
I never said that they did not change.
It has nothing to do with those historical facts.
You on the other hand are the one ignoring the Hebrews historical facts that they were there and that they belong there as much the Arab people do.
They had the right to have their homeland restored to them.

 

[Humanity]

And history does not begin and end with Judaism either...

The sooner that people start accepting that, well, there were human beings BEFORE Judaism AND Islam in what we now call the middle east the better!

It's utter BS that EITHER side should stake a claim on a piece of land based on ancient historical beliefs... Particularly, based upon the words of some made up entity!

'Modern' history doesn't really have a beginning, it is an evolution of historical events...

To suggest that one specific group has more rights to a piece of land than another is just ludicrous!

The British won the Turkish Ottoman war and it was theirs to do with as they pleased and they decided to give it to the Jews.
Get over it. The Jews will remain right where they are.

Well done on the semi accurate history lesson...

However you missed the point completely didn't you!

Land will always be 'land' and, historically, changes hands every few hundred years through war and conquest!

Suggesting that a piece of land belongs to one peoples or another is utter BS!

You're entitled to your opinion, even though you are wrong.

hahaha really?

So it's NOT historical fact that empires/civilisations/countries have been conquered and changed hands every few hundred years?

Suggest you go and read some elementary history books and come back with some knowledge!

There are VERY few 'indigenous' peoples still living on 'their' homeland... And the Jews certainly aren't one of them!

You are the one who just accused me wrongly.
I never said that they did not change.
It has nothing to do with those historical facts.
You on the other hand are the one ignoring the Hebrews historical facts that they were there and that they belong there as much the Arab people do.
They had the right to have their homeland restored to them.

Accused you of what?
No, you said I was "wrong"... Clearly my statement that land conquests have occurred throughout history is correct!
Funny how the 'Israel Firsters" manage to ignore historical facts when it doesn't work in their favor.
I did no such thing... Hebrews have their own history like all other peoples!
Really? After the Hebrews left Canaan for Egypt voluntarily do they have a right to reclaim the land of Canaan that, oh, didn't they conquer the Canaanites for the land in the first place?

You see, historically, land has always been fought over won and lost, it does NOT give anyone the right to be restored to a land that once belonged to them... Have a think about that one... Do Europeans have a "right" to be restored to their "homeland" of America? After all, America belonged to the Europeans!

 

[montelatici]

And history does not begin and end with Judaism either...

The sooner that people start accepting that, well, there were human beings BEFORE Judaism AND Islam in what we now call the middle east the better!

It's utter BS that EITHER side should stake a claim on a piece of land based on ancient historical beliefs... Particularly, based upon the words of some made up entity!

'Modern' history doesn't really have a beginning, it is an evolution of historical events...

To suggest that one specific group has more rights to a piece of land than another is just ludicrous!

The British won the Turkish Ottoman war and it was theirs to do with as they pleased and they decided to give it to the Jews.
Get over it. The Jews will remain right where they are.

Well done on the semi accurate history lesson...

However you missed the point completely didn't you!

Land will always be 'land' and, historically, changes hands every few hundred years through war and conquest!

Suggesting that a piece of land belongs to one peoples or another is utter BS!

You're entitled to your opinion, even though you are wrong.

hahaha really?

So it's NOT historical fact that empires/civilisations/countries have been conquered and changed hands every few hundred years?

Suggest you go and read some elementary history books and come back with some knowledge!

There are VERY few 'indigenous' peoples still living on 'their' homeland... And the Jews certainly aren't one of them!

You are the one who just accused me wrongly.
I never said that they did not change.
It has nothing to do with those historical facts.
You on the other hand are the one ignoring the Hebrews historical facts that they were there and that they belong there as much the Arab people do.
They had the right to have their homeland restored to them.

The European Jews that invaded Palestine were Europeans. Their homelands were in Europe. Palestine was the homeland of the native Christian and Muslim people that were living there before the European invasion and takeover.

 

[Hollie]

The British won the Turkish Ottoman war and it was theirs to do with as they pleased and they decided to give it to the Jews.
Get over it. The Jews will remain right where they are.

Well done on the semi accurate history lesson...

However you missed the point completely didn't you!

Land will always be 'land' and, historically, changes hands every few hundred years through war and conquest!

Suggesting that a piece of land belongs to one peoples or another is utter BS!

You're entitled to your opinion, even though you are wrong.

hahaha really?

So it's NOT historical fact that empires/civilisations/countries have been conquered and changed hands every few hundred years?

Suggest you go and read some elementary history books and come back with some knowledge!

There are VERY few 'indigenous' peoples still living on 'their' homeland... And the Jews certainly aren't one of them!

You are the one who just accused me wrongly.
I never said that they did not change.
It has nothing to do with those historical facts.
You on the other hand are the one ignoring the Hebrews historical facts that they were there and that they belong there as much the Arab people do.
They had the right to have their homeland restored to them.

The European Jews that invaded Palestine were Europeans. Their homelands were in Europe. Palestine was the homeland of the native Christian and Muslim people that were living there before the European invasion and takeover.

Although, as we know, there was no invasion by Europeans. There was however, an invasion and colonial project by the Ottomon Turks and later by Arab-Moslem beggars and squatters from Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

 

[montelatici]

There was no Ottoman "colonial project" in terms of settling Turks in Palestine. The only Turks were a military garrison and government administrators. There was a Zionist colonial project that was implemented through an invasion by European Jews.

There was no Egyptian, Jordanian or Syrian migration to Palestine after the Ottoman withdrawal to speak of. As the historical record shows. Sadly, you haven't a clue, you just make outrageous claims with no basis in fact. Just stop making outrageous false claims and I will stop posting the historical record as per below.


"(b)IMMIGRATION AND NATURAL INCREASE

15. These changes in the population have been brought about by two forces: natural increase and immigration. The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to immigration. From 1920 to 1946, the total number of recorded Jewish immigrants into Palestine was about 376,000, or an average of over 8,000 per year. The flow has not been regular, however, being fairly high in 1924 to 1926, falling in the next few years (there was a net emigration in 1927) and rising to even higher levels between 1933 and 1936 as a result of the Nazi persecution in Europe. Between the census year of 1931 and the year 1936, the proportion of Jews to the total population rose from 18 per cent to nearly 30 per cent.

16. The Arab population has increased almost entirely as a result of an excess of births over deaths.

A/364 of 3 September 1947

 

[Hollie]

There was no Ottoman "colonial project" in terms of settling Turks in Palestine. The only Turks were a military garrison and government administrators. There was a Zionist colonial project that was implemented through an invasion by European Jews.

There was no Egyptian, Jordanian or Syrian migration to Palestine after the Ottoman withdrawal to speak of. As the historical record shows. Sadly, you haven't a clue, you just make outrageous claims with no basis in fact. Just stop making outrageous false claims and I will stop posting the historical record as per below.


"(b)IMMIGRATION AND NATURAL INCREASE

15. These changes in the population have been brought about by two forces: natural increase and immigration. The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to immigration. From 1920 to 1946, the total number of recorded Jewish immigrants into Palestine was about 376,000, or an average of over 8,000 per year. The flow has not been regular, however, being fairly high in 1924 to 1926, falling in the next few years (there was a net emigration in 1927) and rising to even higher levels between 1933 and 1936 as a result of the Nazi persecution in Europe. Between the census year of 1931 and the year 1936, the proportion of Jews to the total population rose from 18 per cent to nearly 30 per cent.

16. The Arab population has increased almost entirely as a result of an excess of births over deaths.

A/364 of 3 September 1947

Actually, there certainly was an Ottoman colonial project as there was Egyptian, Jordanian or Syrian migration to Palestine after the collapse of the Ottoman colonial project.

Myths & Facts: The British Mandate Period (Chapter 2) | Jewish Virtual Library

The British response to Jewish immigration set a precedent of appeasing the Arabs, which was followed for the duration of the Mandate. The British placed restrictions on Jewish immigration while allowing Arabs to enter the country freely. Apparently, London did not feel that a flood of Arab immigrants would affect the country’s absorptive capacity.

During World War I, the Jewish population in Palestine declined because of the war, famine, disease and expulsion by the Turks. In 1915, approximately 83,000 Jews lived in Palestine among 590,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs. According to the 1922 census, the Jewish population was 84,000, while the Arabs numbered 643,000. 4 Thus, the Arab population grew exponentially while that of the Jews stagnated.

In the mid-1920s, Jewish immigration to Palestine increased primarily because of anti-Jewish economic legislation in Poland and Washington’s imposition of restrictive quotas. 5

The record number of immigrants in 1935 (see table) was a response to the growing persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany. The British administration considered this number too large, however, so the Jewish Agency was informed that less than one-third of the quota it asked for would be approved in 1936. 6

The British gave in further to Arab demands by announcing in the 1939 White Paper that an independent Arab state would be created within 10 years, and that Jewish immigration was to be limited to 75,000 for the next five years, after which it was to cease altogether. It also forbade land sales to Jews in 95 percent of the territory of Palestine. The Arabs, nevertheless, rejected the proposal.

 

[montelatici]

Quoting a Hasbara propaganda site is silly. Try using source documentation to make a point.

There was no Ottoman colonial settler project. If there had been there would be Turks in Palestine. Try to think logically.


In 1947 after all the data was compiled the determination was the following:

"(b)IMMIGRATION AND NATURAL INCREASE

15. These changes in the population have been brought about by two forces: natural increase and immigration. The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to immigration. From 1920 to 1946, the total number of recorded Jewish immigrants into Palestine was about 376,000, or an average of over 8,000 per year. The flow has not been regular, however, being fairly high in 1924 to 1926, falling in the next few years (there was a net emigration in 1927) and rising to even higher levels between 1933 and 1936 as a result of the Nazi persecution in Europe. Between the census year of 1931 and the year 1936, the proportion of Jews to the total population rose from 18 per cent to nearly 30 per cent.

16. The Arab population has increased almost entirely as a result of an excess of births over deaths.

A/364 of 3 September 1947

 

[Hollie]

Quoting a Hasbara propaganda site is silly. Try using source documentation to make a point.

There was no Ottoman colonial settler project. If there had been there would be Turks in Palestine. Try to think logically.


In 1947 after all the data was compiled the determination was the following:

"(b)IMMIGRATION AND NATURAL INCREASE

15. These changes in the population have been brought about by two forces: natural increase and immigration. The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to immigration. From 1920 to 1946, the total number of recorded Jewish immigrants into Palestine was about 376,000, or an average of over 8,000 per year. The flow has not been regular, however, being fairly high in 1924 to 1926, falling in the next few years (there was a net emigration in 1927) and rising to even higher levels between 1933 and 1936 as a result of the Nazi persecution in Europe. Between the census year of 1931 and the year 1936, the proportion of Jews to the total population rose from 18 per cent to nearly 30 per cent.

16. The Arab population has increased almost entirely as a result of an excess of births over deaths.

A/364 of 3 September 1947

Pretty typical. I've got to stuttering and mumbling with your usual cutting and pasting of the same material multiple times across multiple threads.

 

[montelatici]

You still haven't even been able to articulate your Zionist version of history. Not only are you bereft of the facts, you can't even explain the propaganda. Nor can you explain or tell us who were the people in Palestine when the Ottomans invaded and implemented their fictional colonial settler project.

 

[peach174]

The British won the Turkish Ottoman war and it was theirs to do with as they pleased and they decided to give it to the Jews.
Get over it. The Jews will remain right where they are.

Well done on the semi accurate history lesson...

However you missed the point completely didn't you!

Land will always be 'land' and, historically, changes hands every few hundred years through war and conquest!

Suggesting that a piece of land belongs to one peoples or another is utter BS!

You're entitled to your opinion, even though you are wrong.

hahaha really?

So it's NOT historical fact that empires/civilisations/countries have been conquered and changed hands every few hundred years?

Suggest you go and read some elementary history books and come back with some knowledge!

There are VERY few 'indigenous' peoples still living on 'their' homeland... And the Jews certainly aren't one of them!

You are the one who just accused me wrongly.
I never said that they did not change.
It has nothing to do with those historical facts.
You on the other hand are the one ignoring the Hebrews historical facts that they were there and that they belong there as much the Arab people do.
They had the right to have their homeland restored to them.

Accused you of what?
No, you said I was "wrong"... Clearly my statement that land conquests have occurred throughout history is correct!
Funny how the 'Israel Firsters" manage to ignore historical facts when it doesn't work in their favor.
I did no such thing... Hebrews have their own history like all other peoples!
Really? After the Hebrews left Canaan for Egypt voluntarily do they have a right to reclaim the land of Canaan that, oh, didn't they conquer the Canaanites for the land in the first place?

You see, historically, land has always been fought over won and lost, it does NOT give anyone the right to be restored to a land that once belonged to them... Have a think about that one... Do Europeans have a "right" to be restored to their "homeland" of America? After all, America belonged to the Europeans!

You need to learn the difference between States and Territories.
If you knew, then you would know why Europeans have no right to have any land restored to them from America.

Ottomans lost the war and that means they lost the Palestine Territory, being it was a territory, the British had the right to do with as they wished with their newly won territory.
The Jews are there to stay and it is theirs now and whether you like it or not, Israel will remain.

 

[Hollie]

You still haven't even been able to articulate your Zionist version of history. Not only are you bereft of the facts, you can't even explain the propaganda. Nor can you explain or tell us who were the people in Palestine when the Ottomans invaded and implemented their fictional colonial settler project.

You believe the history of Ottoman Empire is Zionist propaganda? That's a shame because that only reinforces your befuddlement regarding the invasion and colonial settler project that us consistent with Islamist history.

 

[montelatici]

You haven't articulated anything about the Ottoman Empire, in terms of who they conquered in Palestine or evidence that the Ottomans transferred any Turks to Palestine as part of their colonial project.

You have absolutely no credibility.

On the other hand there is published evidence in the public domain that confirms that the Zionists implemented a colonial project with respect to Palestine. The Zionists themselves self designated it a colonial project to settle Europeans in Palestine.

 

[Hollie]

You haven't articulated anything about the Ottoman Empire, in terms of who they conquered in Palestine or evidence that the Ottomans transferred any Turks to Palestine as part of their colonial project.

You have absolutely no credibility.

On the other hand there is published evidence in the public domain that confirms that the Zionists implemented a colonial project with respect to Palestine. The Zionists themselves self designated it a colonial project to settle Europeans in Palestine.

Your ignorance regarding the history of islamism and Islamist colonial projects leaves you no option but to cut and paste the same material multiple times across multiple threads.

The Ottoman invasion of the geographic area of Palestine was clearly an invasion and colonial project. You would do well to take some time and make an attempt to understand the cutting and pasting you dump into threads.

 

[montelatici]

Why don't you tell us who the Ottomans evicted in order to implement their colonial settler project and where all the Turkish settlers that colonized Palestine went.

You can't answer the question because your assertion is ridiculous.