Debate Now If Bernie Ran as an Independent November 2016

Discussion in 'Debate Now - Structured Discussion Forum' started by flacaltenn, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator Gold Supporting Member

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    This is an Invite Only thread. If your member name does not appear in the alert call list -- DO NOT POST HERE -- do not even use the rating buttons on posts in this thread.

    Knowing what you did about how Bernie got screwed by Super Delegates and DNC snubs, and if he had let the DNC nominate some other sucker to play the role of Hillary's punching bag, skipped the DNC primaries and run as an INDEPENDENT in the Nov. 16 General Election --- would you have voted for him? How do you THINK the outcome would have been for the threesome?

    Do you think the TONE of the debates and the national conversation would have been BETTER? Or worse? If there was a similar Independent challenger that ate into Trump vote totals -- would that signal Armageddon for the election results or better choice and discussion?

    rightwinger BULLDOG candycorn OldLady Mac1958 kaz Coyote dblack theDoctorisIn Disir
     
  2. candycorn
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    candycorn Alis volat propriis

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    Well, first I don’t think the Super Delegates screwed Bernie. They’ve had Supers since at least 1984 with Mondale. Clearly the DNC leadership did favor Clinton over Bernie. For good reason. She has been a democrat forever and Bernie isn’t a democrat. She was electable…I agree with them in saying that he was not. She won every large state and she won the popular vote. Sometimes the ball just goes into the gutter.

    I disagree with their tactics. Clearly, they were in the bag for Clinton. They should just have let the convention play out like it would have anyway.

    To answer your question, I would have still voted for HRC. Former FLOTUS, elected to the US Senate twice, former US SoS, Grammy winner, consistently on the list of most admired and most influential women…. best qualified person to seek the office since Bush Sr.

    The general election outcome probably would have been the same with the Democrat vote split between Bernie and HRC and Trump getting a plurality of the popular vote.



    The TONE would have been slightly different. I think it would have benefitted Clinton myself.


    The conversation would be better, A serious third party challenger puts a hole in the dam of the two party system.



    rightwinger BULLDOG candycorn OldLady Mac1958 kaz Coyote dblack theDoctorisIn Disir
    [/QUOTE]
     
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  3. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator Gold Supporting Member

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    You don't think when the gloves came off and it was a REAL DEBATE between Bernie and Hillary that Hillary would have "lost a bit of polish" amongst the DNC faithful? Or even the dynamic of having three people on the stage that ALL HAD a considerable base constituency competing --- that wouldn't have moved the discussion further into policies and issues instead of ideals. Hillary would have a LOT to defend against Bernie in a REAL debate.
     
  4. candycorn
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    candycorn Alis volat propriis

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    Correct on all points. I do think that the (50 cent phrase here) overarching paradigm in any Presidential election is electability. Bernie was not electable. He self identified as a Democratic Socialist. I assumed you meant 3 way between Trump, Hillary and Sanders….in that case, Bernie would have probably went after Trump more than Hillary because at the end of the day, Sanders knows that HRC would have been a superior President to Trump.
     
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  5. BULLDOG
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    BULLDOG Diamond Member

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    This is a stupid idea. Put me on your don't call list.
     
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  6. Mac1958
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    Mac1958 Diamond Member

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    Bernie's support was YUGE and energetic within the party. And, there were people who supported both he and Trump, because there are more and more people who just simply can't take the standard party bullshit any more.

    Thinking it through a bit, the debates would sure have been interesting. Having one more person pounding on him would have hurt Trump more, but he would have kept much more of his support than Hillary would have, so I suspect he would have won anyway.

    Would I still have voted for Hillary? I literally just sat here a while, thinking about it. Probably.
    .
     
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  7. OldLady
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    OldLady Platinum Member

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    Like Mac, I had to think about this one. No, I still had to vote against Trump and I couldn't vote for Bernie, even if he were an independent. Bernie would have taken votes from Clinton (NO Republican or conservative would have voted for him) and Trump would have won by more than he did.

    I don't like this Super Delegate thing at all. I don't think it should be allowed. The parties may be private organizations who can do what they please, but their process ends up giving us the choices for who is going to lead this country and considering that, I think they should be stopped from that kind of shenanigans in the Electoral College voting.

    I don't know a whole lot about it, so if someone can disabuse me of that notion, I'd be interested in hearing it.
     
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  8. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator Gold Supporting Member

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    I think several interesting things would have happened under this scenario..

    1) The lefty media would be tossed TOTALLY off their game. Because there would be genuine emotional conflict about COVERAGING such a match-up.. I feel they would chicken-out in terms of taking sides in genuines conflicts between Bernie and Hillary. And Bernie would GREATLY benefit from all their free coverage of his campaign..

    2) It's almost certain the Hilliary campaign and the DNC would have gone into FULL commando mode to shake off the Bernie challenge and simultaneously attack Trump. Since Hilliary virtually had a lease on the DNC by paying off debts and was able to tilt the party central committee in her favor. It would be "situation room" warfare to try and pick-off Bernie as early as possible. Likely Bernie would have been INCLUDED in the Russian collusion allegations. I say that because it's almost DEFINITE that RT and other Russian media would have fallen all over themselves to offer glowing daily pieces about a real American Socialist campaign. Like they did for Jill Stein and her trip to Russia to meet with top Putin aides. And Bernie has that baggage of taking his honeymoon in Moscow after-all ---- :eusa_angel:

    3) This whole exercise just illustrates how Verboten it is to even PONDER 3 way or 4 way competitive choice races on an American ballot. And having a wider swath of America actually represented in the choices and somewhat "jazzed" would make the voters consider what "winning" actually means. Especially, if there was broader and better DEBATES to go with the deal. Bernie would have certainly qualified over the 15% polling level to ENTER the debates and set a VERY important precedent for breaking down the ILLUSION that only the 2 inept and corrupt parties can field "winners"..
     
  9. theDoctorisIn
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    theDoctorisIn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator

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    I did vote for Bernie in the General - I wrote him in. I imagine that if he had been running as an Indy, I would have voted for him that way.

    But I only did that because I lived in California at the time, and therefore had the privilege of doing so. If I had been living in a competitive state, I would likely have had to hold my nose and vote for Hilary.

    As for the DNC "screwing" Sanders, I don't see that as something that actually happened. Bernie lost the primaries. Thousands more people voted for Clinton over him - and the DNC didn't force them to do so. The party has little control over its voters.
     
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  10. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator Gold Supporting Member

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    We've personally discussed the super delegate situation before. And you shared a bunch of knowledge with me about it. But the fact is --- when the primary candidate literally "leases" the DNC for the duration of an election, and refuses to equally share voter metrics and lists and has the equivalent of 130,000 (IIRC) Super-D votes that literally disenfranchise 7300 ACTUAL voters -- that's a VERY big impediment to a FAIR process by any measure. Bernie lost several states because of S-D votes. You are down 30% in delegate count before you even hit the campaign trail. He smashed her in New Hampshire 60/40 and walked away with only equal delegates. That's a roadblock for the 1st MAJOR primary..


    The party KNOWS this is indefensible. It's STILL stinging because of the intense resentment from the Bernie fans.

    DNC Chair backs plan to effectively eliminate key role of 'super delegates' in nomination process

    Carl Leubsdorf: Democrats' civil war over super delegates
     

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