If a fetus is not a viable human life ..

[idb]

if it is not a viable life how can it be born addicted to the same drugs it's mother used during pregnancy ??how can it be born premature and addicted to the drugs it's mother used ?? Do liberals think it's ok to do meth or cocaine while pregnant ?? after all according to many on the left a fetus is just a fetus not a human being.

Are you arguing that a foetus, by definition, is viable?
Does it have to be viable to be considered a foetus?

What if it isn't viable?
Is it not considered a human being?
If that's the case, why would anyone object to IUDs or the morning-after pill...or abortion?

You've got a lot to think about young man.

 

[LoneLaugher]

If you believe a fetus is a human being how can you possibly justify being pro choice? I'm not trying trying to judge you for your opinion, just curious as to your rationalization.

Multiple part answer:

First, I think that a civilization has to make tough choices, and abortion and war are the two toughest among them. While I hate abortion, I can't help but look at the effects on the mother and a child brought into a home that does not want it. Not to mention adding that child to other unwanted siblings, and/or abject poverty.

Second, I think we as a society could do a better job of providing options for young pregnant women in terms of adoption. This is also a cultural issue, in which I'd love to see both ends of this debate lend their considerable passion to decreasing the REAL problem here, which is demand.

Finally, I'd like to see an honest (ha ha) debate about limiting abortions to a certain time frame, such as first trimester or first half.

This is a lousy, horrible topic, which is why it would be helpful if the two sides could work together on SOMETHING.

Thanks for the civil question!

.

That is pretty much my opinion in nutshell, and there is a simple solution that has worked in every developed country in the world including ours, good frank sex education starting from the average age of fertility and cheap, easily obtainable contraception. Of course the same people that want to ban abortion freak the fuck out just as much about that.

I'm with you here.

Anyone else?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Multiple part answer:

First, I think that a civilization has to make tough choices, and abortion and war are the two toughest among them. While I hate abortion, I can't help but look at the effects on the mother and a child brought into a home that does not want it. Not to mention adding that child to other unwanted siblings, and/or abject poverty.

Second, I think we as a society could do a better job of providing options for young pregnant women in terms of adoption. This is also a cultural issue, in which I'd love to see both ends of this debate lend their considerable passion to decreasing the REAL problem here, which is demand.

Finally, I'd like to see an honest (ha ha) debate about limiting abortions to a certain time frame, such as first trimester or first half.

This is a lousy, horrible topic, which is why it would be helpful if the two sides could work together on SOMETHING.

Thanks for the civil question!

.

That is pretty much my opinion in nutshell, and there is a simple solution that has worked in every developed country in the world including ours, good frank sex education starting from the average age of fertility and cheap, easily obtainable contraception. Of course the same people that want to ban abortion freak the fuck out just as much about that.

I'm with you here.

Anyone else?

Agreed.

 

[Noomi]

if it is not a viable life how can it be born addicted to the same drugs it's mother used during pregnancy ??how can it be born premature and addicted to the drugs it's mother used ?? Do liberals think it's ok to do meth or cocaine while pregnant ?? after all according to many on the left a fetus is just a fetus not a human being.

Doesn't have to be a person to be drug addicted. Its a person when born, which is the point.

 

[LoneLaugher]

That is pretty much my opinion in nutshell, and there is a simple solution that has worked in every developed country in the world including ours, good frank sex education starting from the average age of fertility and cheap, easily obtainable contraception. Of course the same people that want to ban abortion freak the fuck out just as much about that.

I'm with you here.

Anyone else?

Agreed.

Well....that makes four so far.

 

[warwulf]

Who does abortion honestly hurt? If the woman wants one, let her get it, especially if she's non-white! In cases of rape, the baby will be retarded, malformed, etc...then by all means, let's get rid of them.
No one wants to have an un-wanted bastard about the place being a socio-parasite.

 

[Mac1958]

If you believe a fetus is a human being how can you possibly justify being pro choice? I'm not trying trying to judge you for your opinion, just curious as to your rationalization.

Multiple part answer:

First, I think that a civilization has to make tough choices, and abortion and war are the two toughest among them. While I hate abortion, I can't help but look at the effects on the mother and a child brought into a home that does not want it. Not to mention adding that child to other unwanted siblings, and/or abject poverty.

Second, I think we as a society could do a better job of providing options for young pregnant women in terms of adoption. This is also a cultural issue, in which I'd love to see both ends of this debate lend their considerable passion to decreasing the REAL problem here, which is demand.

Finally, I'd like to see an honest (ha ha) debate about limiting abortions to a certain time frame, such as first trimester or first half.

This is a lousy, horrible topic, which is why it would be helpful if the two sides could work together on SOMETHING.

Thanks for the civil question!

.

That is pretty much my opinion in nutshell, and there is a simple solution that has worked in every developed country in the world including ours, good frank sex education starting from the average age of fertility and cheap, easily obtainable contraception. Of course the same people that want to ban abortion freak the fuck out just as much about that.

I would only agree with the Left on the notion of cheap, easily obtainable contraception if they balance that with a cultural message that encourages self control and restraint. That's something I never see from them, it's always completely one-sided: "Well, there's nothing we can do about them having sex, so we may as well make it easy for them".

And are we in agreement, then, that many on the Left are being intellectually dishonest when they deny that a fetus is human life?

.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

if it is not a viable life how can it be born addicted to the same drugs it's mother used during pregnancy ??how can it be born premature and addicted to the drugs it's mother used ?? Do liberals think it's ok to do meth or cocaine while pregnant ?? after all according to many on the left a fetus is just a fetus not a human being.

Doesn't have to be a person to be drug addicted. Its a person when born, which is the point.

The point is also that individuals, in accordance with their own good conscience, should decide, not government.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Multiple part answer:

First, I think that a civilization has to make tough choices, and abortion and war are the two toughest among them. While I hate abortion, I can't help but look at the effects on the mother and a child brought into a home that does not want it. Not to mention adding that child to other unwanted siblings, and/or abject poverty.

Second, I think we as a society could do a better job of providing options for young pregnant women in terms of adoption. This is also a cultural issue, in which I'd love to see both ends of this debate lend their considerable passion to decreasing the REAL problem here, which is demand.

Finally, I'd like to see an honest (ha ha) debate about limiting abortions to a certain time frame, such as first trimester or first half.

This is a lousy, horrible topic, which is why it would be helpful if the two sides could work together on SOMETHING.

Thanks for the civil question!

.

That is pretty much my opinion in nutshell, and there is a simple solution that has worked in every developed country in the world including ours, good frank sex education starting from the average age of fertility and cheap, easily obtainable contraception. Of course the same people that want to ban abortion freak the fuck out just as much about that.

I would only agree with the Left on the notion of cheap, easily obtainable contraception if they balance that with a cultural message that encourages self control and restraint. That's something I never see from them, it's always completely one-sided: "Well, there's nothing we can do about them having sex, so we may as well make it easy for them".

And are we in agreement, then, that many on the Left are being intellectually dishonest when they deny that a fetus is human life?

.

Oh! You want to put conditions on the sound policy of making contraception easily available and affordable! And that condition is to.........drum roll.......make the left agree to reign in the sluts!

As if we don't ALWAYS promote sex education and family planning. The left leads the charge here, Mac. Your understanding of what the left wants is skewed.

The left doesn't deny that a human fetus is human. We simply contend that it is part of the mother's body.......and hers to control....until it is born. Still....we are open to the time frame discussion that you claim that we are not open to. Why? Because we believe in taking responsibility for ones actions. And if a mother decides to carry to, say, the third trimester, it is reasonable to say that she intended to have the baby.

Earmuffs!

<<EDIT>>

I said "we" too often in the above comment. That is how I see it. I don't represent "the left". I am a lefty...and that is how I feel about the subject.

 

[occupied]

Multiple part answer:

First, I think that a civilization has to make tough choices, and abortion and war are the two toughest among them. While I hate abortion, I can't help but look at the effects on the mother and a child brought into a home that does not want it. Not to mention adding that child to other unwanted siblings, and/or abject poverty.

Second, I think we as a society could do a better job of providing options for young pregnant women in terms of adoption. This is also a cultural issue, in which I'd love to see both ends of this debate lend their considerable passion to decreasing the REAL problem here, which is demand.

Finally, I'd like to see an honest (ha ha) debate about limiting abortions to a certain time frame, such as first trimester or first half.

This is a lousy, horrible topic, which is why it would be helpful if the two sides could work together on SOMETHING.

Thanks for the civil question!

.

That is pretty much my opinion in nutshell, and there is a simple solution that has worked in every developed country in the world including ours, good frank sex education starting from the average age of fertility and cheap, easily obtainable contraception. Of course the same people that want to ban abortion freak the fuck out just as much about that.

I would only agree with the Left on the notion of cheap, easily obtainable contraception if they balance that with a cultural message that encourages self control and restraint. That's something I never see from them, it's always completely one-sided: "Well, there's nothing we can do about them having sex, so we may as well make it easy for them".

And are we in agreement, then, that many on the Left are being intellectually dishonest when they deny that a fetus is human life?

.

The fact that irresponsible sexual intercourse carries with it potentially dire repercussions is part of any sex ed curriculum but that cannot be entire message as it tends to be in some of the more conservative school districts. You talk of balance? It is non-existent when Christians are allowed to control the dialog.

 

[Wildman]

Why don't any of you pro-birth assholes ever give any consideration to the woman carrying the fetus? Do any of you give a shit about her mental/physical/financial welfare? I never see any pro-birth protesters saying or holding signs stating GIVE ME YOUR BABY or LET ME HELP YOU. No, they just harass.

Sister Joan Shittister..., how appropriate.

 

[JoeB131]

if a fetus is stillborn because of drug abuse should the mother be held responsible ??

Nope. Frankly, she's probably been punished enough.

 

[Skull Pilot]

if it is not a viable life how can it be born addicted to the same drugs it's mother used during pregnancy ??how can it be born premature and addicted to the drugs it's mother used ?? Do liberals think it's ok to do meth or cocaine while pregnant ?? after all according to many on the left a fetus is just a fetus not a human being.

It is the ultimate liberal dilemma.

Kind of like having to choose between a black man and a white woman for president.

 

[Wildman]

I notice that the defenders of a fetus are also those willing to send living, breathing, thinking children back into harms way without blinking an eye; they're same hypocrites who attack the President of the United States for seeking a policy to protect the rights of living, breathing, thinking children.

let US protect the rights of living, breathing, thinking children of real U.S.American birthright.., not a bunch of kids who have faked abuse just to grab the sympathy of idiots like you and every other liber poster here on USMB.

catch this wry

 

[deltex1]

Mac is right. Self control, self respect, self denial, self discipline, respect for others should be the standard...protective devices should be available for those who don't want to maintain the standard...thus avoiding even further weakening of the human fabric. Let's move away from "man as animal"...and raise our standards of human conduct.

 

[occupied]

Mac is right. Self control, self respect, self denial, self discipline, respect for others should be the standard...protective devices should be available for those who don't want to maintain the standard...thus avoiding even further weakening of the human fabric. Let's move away from "man as animal"...and raise our standards of human conduct.

The old saying that a stiff dick has no conscience is as true in conservative communities as anywhere. A look at the stats is enough to show that a bible and a christian upbringing is no protection against unplanned teen pregnancies and STDs.

 

[yidnar]

Mac is right. Self control, self respect, self denial, self discipline, respect for others should be the standard...protective devices should be available for those who don't want to maintain the standard...thus avoiding even further weakening of the human fabric. Let's move away from "man as animal"...and raise our standards of human conduct.

The old saying that a stiff dick has no conscience is as true in conservative communities as anywhere. A look at the stats is enough to show that a bible and a christian upbringing is no protection against unplanned teen pregnancies and STDs.

if you are trying to say that the majority of pregnant teens are conservative you are out of your mind .

 

[Mac1958]

That is pretty much my opinion in nutshell, and there is a simple solution that has worked in every developed country in the world including ours, good frank sex education starting from the average age of fertility and cheap, easily obtainable contraception. Of course the same people that want to ban abortion freak the fuck out just as much about that.

I would only agree with the Left on the notion of cheap, easily obtainable contraception if they balance that with a cultural message that encourages self control and restraint. That's something I never see from them, it's always completely one-sided: "Well, there's nothing we can do about them having sex, so we may as well make it easy for them".

And are we in agreement, then, that many on the Left are being intellectually dishonest when they deny that a fetus is human life?

.

The fact that irresponsible sexual intercourse carries with it potentially dire repercussions is part of any sex ed curriculum but that cannot be entire message as it tends to be in some of the more conservative school districts. You talk of balance? It is non-existent when Christians are allowed to control the dialog.

Sex Ed classes are one thing, that's fine. But I'm talking about this as a cultural issue as well, and that's a clear difference. Education and culture are mutually exclusive.

Both sides have to give and take on this for it to work, both sides (as usual) have to stop pointing the finger at only the other. Both sides have responsibilities. Both sides have to get over themselves. Both sides have to be willing to change their behavior to become more accepting of the other.

Which I do not expect from either side.

.

 

[deltex1]

Mac is right. Self control, self respect, self denial, self discipline, respect for others should be the standard...protective devices should be available for those who don't want to maintain the standard...thus avoiding even further weakening of the human fabric. Let's move away from "man as animal"...and raise our standards of human conduct.

The old saying that a stiff dick has no conscience is as true in conservative communities as anywhere. A look at the stats is enough to show that a bible and a christian upbringing is no protection against unplanned teen pregnancies and STDs.

The difference is that conservatives may not always meet the standard...but they are not out there calling for lowering the standard...which is a hallmark of lib philosophy.

 

[occupied]

I would only agree with the Left on the notion of cheap, easily obtainable contraception if they balance that with a cultural message that encourages self control and restraint. That's something I never see from them, it's always completely one-sided: "Well, there's nothing we can do about them having sex, so we may as well make it easy for them".

And are we in agreement, then, that many on the Left are being intellectually dishonest when they deny that a fetus is human life?

.

The fact that irresponsible sexual intercourse carries with it potentially dire repercussions is part of any sex ed curriculum but that cannot be entire message as it tends to be in some of the more conservative school districts. You talk of balance? It is non-existent when Christians are allowed to control the dialog.

Sex Ed classes are one thing, that's fine. But I'm talking about this as a cultural issue as well, and that's a clear difference. Education and culture are mutually exclusive.

Both sides have to give and take on this for it to work, both sides (as usual) have to stop pointing the finger at only the other. Both sides have responsibilities. Both sides have to get over themselves. Both sides have to be willing to change their behavior to become more accepting of the other.

Which I do not expect from either side.

.

There should only be one side here, the youth of America. They should have access to all information and all forms of contraception and be allowed to make their own choices as they are in some of the European countries where abortion rates are really low. Trying to shape their behavior through scare tactics, omission and outright lies about human sexuality to satisfy the religious right is not effective, never has been.