peacefan
Gold Member
History Illustrated: Israel, genocide and whether the ICJ matters
International Court of Justice orders Israel to avoid genocidal acts, provide humanitarian aid — but will it be enough?
FYI, ICJ.
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ICJ better work on the dictionary definitions for 'genocide', i guess.
- Thread starter peacefan
- Start date
FYI, ICJ.
Sayaras
Platinum Member
- Nov 13, 2023
- 1,838
- 998
- 893
Israel can limit the ICJ’s potential damage.
Israel must immediately end its acceptance of the ICJ's jurisdiction with respect to the Genocide Convention.
Eugene Kontorovich
(January 28, 2024 / Israel Hayom)
Israelis on Friday displayed what is called Jewish joy—they celebrated that the pogromniks only broke the windows, but did not kill anyone. The good news was the International Court of Justice did not effectively order us to wait to be tortured and murdered, by demanding a halt to the Gaza War. That is certainly good—but only in the twisted world where the ICJ is putting Israel, not Hamas, on trial for the absolutely absurd charge of genocide.
Otherwise, the decision was horrible. The court accepted South Africa’s argument that it has jurisdiction and that Israel could possibly be proven to be committing genocide. The case is not over and will go on for years. In the meantime, the court has made clear that it considers itself to have authority to review and superintend every aspect of Israel’s war for survival—and demands monthly reports. No other country receives such treatment, and it is designed to make the military constantly look over its soldiers’ shoulders.
The ICJ is not an independent body—it is an organ of the United Nations. Its justices serve a renewable nine-year term, further undermining their independence. The judges are elected by the General Assembly and Security Council, and their positions largely track the foreign policy of their home countries. Thus while we might get lucky sometimes, over the long run, the policy of the court will reflect the policy of the United Nations.
The General Assembly’s obsessive condemnation of the Jewish state is well known—Israel would never agree to have its fate determined by them. But agreeing to the jurisdiction of the court indirectly does the same thing. In Israel it is thought unacceptable to have judges appointed by democratically elected politicians decide the meaning of ordinary laws. Yet we have agreed to have judges elected by dictatorial regimes decide the basic question of whether we can exist—whether we can defend ourselves.
It does not have to be this way: The ICJ does not automatically have jurisdiction over countries—they must specifically agree, typically by agreeing that The Hague can decide a specific dispute or questions under a specific treaty. In this case, Israel signed the Genocide Convention, which provides that “disputes between the…parties” about the treaty can be decided by the ICJ. But that does not mean cases like this, where a totally unrelated state has brought a purely political complaint in a matter it has no relation to. The court should not have accepted jurisdiction, and by doing so it effectively claimed for itself power to supervise the conduct of wars around the world, so long as some country claims genocide is involved.
Israel did not have to agree to the ICJ jurisdiction to be a member of the Genocide Convention, and in retrospect, doing so was a major mistake. Countries are allowed to opt out of ICJ jurisdiction in various treaties, and very commonly do so. Indeed, 16 countries have opted out of the Genocide Convention minus the ICJ jurisdiction—including the world’s largest democracies, the United States and India. Even the world’s biggest superpowers did not trust the ICJ to hear cases involving the use of force in an apolitical way.
www.jns.org
-
WSJ Editorial: The U.N.’s War on Israel.
The Editorial Board.
Jan. 26, 2024 5:51 pm ET
What a day for the United Nations. Its International Court of Justice (ICJ) issued a preliminary ruling Friday in South Africa’s case against Israel that managed to be both outrageous and meaningless. At the same time, its special forever-refugee agency for the Palestinians, Unrwa, had to fire staff accused of involvement in Hamas’s Oct. 7 massacre. Our global moral beacon in action.
The ICJ tribunal indulged South Africa’s genocide libel by going ahead with a trial and trashing Israel for self-defense against Hamas. But the justices rejected Pretoria’s request to order Israel to stop the war. The court instead instructed Israel to prevent acts of genocide, punish incitement and facilitate aid to civilians—which Jerusalem is already doing. Israel will have to report back in a month, and the court could take years to decide on the merits.
As law professor Eugene Kontorovich writes, “That’s Jewish joy—they defamed us, treated us like no other democracy, undermined our right to self-defense, put the victim on trial—but it could have been worse!” All true, and an order to halt the war while Hamas holds territory and 136 hostages would have put Israel in a tight spot.
The U.N.’s credibility is also on trial, especially through Unrwa, whose reports the court relied on. After Israel brought evidence that 12 Unrwa employees participated in the Oct. 7 attack, the U.S. State Department announced on Friday a pause in funding to the U.N.’s Palestinian refugee agency pending investigation.
A new U.N. Watch report, to be released and discussed in Congress on Tuesday, shows “how a Telegram group of 3,000 UNRWA teachers in Gaza celebrated the October 7th Hamas massacre.” The message group’s administrators, identified by name and Unrwa contract number, are seen praising Hamas’s “holy warriors” and praying for them to murder Israelis: “O God, tear them apart,” “kill them one by one,” “leave none of them behind,” “execute the first settler on live broadcast.” One urged that Gazans stay in place to help Hamas...
Gaza will never be a peaceful refuge as long as its friends at the U.N. keep using it for anti-Israel purposes. Unrwa as it currently works doesn’t deserve U.S. support.
Sa'ar says he’ll start work on filing genocide case against Iran at International Court of Justice.
By Jeremy Sharon.
28 Jan 2024, 2:58 pm
Cabinet minister Gideon Sa’ar says he will begin working on having Israel file a case against Iran in the International Court of Justice on genocide charges, pointing out that Iranian leaders have called for Israel’s destruction and that Iran gives strong backing to Hamas and other Gaza terror groups that carried out the October 7 atrocities.
Numerous experts in international law have said that the massacres and other crimes carried out by Hamas on October 7 likely constitute a genocidal act since they appear to have been aimed at destroying “in whole or in part” a national group, in this case Israelis.
“There are public statements by senior Iranian officials in favor of destroying Israel,” Sa’ar tells the Kan public broadcaster.
“Iran finances, arms, and trains all the jihadi terrorists organizations including Hamas and Islamic Jihad which carried out October 7, so in my opinion there is an abundance of evidence which can be submitted to the court in the Hague,” adds Sa’ar, a former justice minister.
He notes that he has spoken with National Security Council head Tzachi Hanegbi on the issue and says that he intends to ensure that such a suit is filed against Iran.
“Israel is a small and persecuted nation that is fighting for its life and at the same time is fighting on the international stage for its right to self defense. It is a nation that is truly at risk of genocide given that there are enemies around it that declaredly want to destroy it,” he says
www.timesofisrael.com
Why didn't the ICJ vote on South Africa's main request for a ceasefire? Because the ICJ ruling was political, not legal.
January 28, 2024.
There is a gaping hole in the ICJ provisional measures ruling issued on January 26...
elderofziyon.blogspot.com
Israel must immediately end its acceptance of the ICJ's jurisdiction with respect to the Genocide Convention.
Eugene Kontorovich
(January 28, 2024 / Israel Hayom)
Israelis on Friday displayed what is called Jewish joy—they celebrated that the pogromniks only broke the windows, but did not kill anyone. The good news was the International Court of Justice did not effectively order us to wait to be tortured and murdered, by demanding a halt to the Gaza War. That is certainly good—but only in the twisted world where the ICJ is putting Israel, not Hamas, on trial for the absolutely absurd charge of genocide.
Otherwise, the decision was horrible. The court accepted South Africa’s argument that it has jurisdiction and that Israel could possibly be proven to be committing genocide. The case is not over and will go on for years. In the meantime, the court has made clear that it considers itself to have authority to review and superintend every aspect of Israel’s war for survival—and demands monthly reports. No other country receives such treatment, and it is designed to make the military constantly look over its soldiers’ shoulders.
The ICJ is not an independent body—it is an organ of the United Nations. Its justices serve a renewable nine-year term, further undermining their independence. The judges are elected by the General Assembly and Security Council, and their positions largely track the foreign policy of their home countries. Thus while we might get lucky sometimes, over the long run, the policy of the court will reflect the policy of the United Nations.
The General Assembly’s obsessive condemnation of the Jewish state is well known—Israel would never agree to have its fate determined by them. But agreeing to the jurisdiction of the court indirectly does the same thing. In Israel it is thought unacceptable to have judges appointed by democratically elected politicians decide the meaning of ordinary laws. Yet we have agreed to have judges elected by dictatorial regimes decide the basic question of whether we can exist—whether we can defend ourselves.
It does not have to be this way: The ICJ does not automatically have jurisdiction over countries—they must specifically agree, typically by agreeing that The Hague can decide a specific dispute or questions under a specific treaty. In this case, Israel signed the Genocide Convention, which provides that “disputes between the…parties” about the treaty can be decided by the ICJ. But that does not mean cases like this, where a totally unrelated state has brought a purely political complaint in a matter it has no relation to. The court should not have accepted jurisdiction, and by doing so it effectively claimed for itself power to supervise the conduct of wars around the world, so long as some country claims genocide is involved.
Israel did not have to agree to the ICJ jurisdiction to be a member of the Genocide Convention, and in retrospect, doing so was a major mistake. Countries are allowed to opt out of ICJ jurisdiction in various treaties, and very commonly do so. Indeed, 16 countries have opted out of the Genocide Convention minus the ICJ jurisdiction—including the world’s largest democracies, the United States and India. Even the world’s biggest superpowers did not trust the ICJ to hear cases involving the use of force in an apolitical way.
Israel can limit the ICJ's potential damage
Israel must immediately end its acceptance of the ICJ's jurisdiction with respect to the Genocide Convention.
www.jns.org
-
WSJ Editorial: The U.N.’s War on Israel.
The Editorial Board.
Jan. 26, 2024 5:51 pm ET
What a day for the United Nations. Its International Court of Justice (ICJ) issued a preliminary ruling Friday in South Africa’s case against Israel that managed to be both outrageous and meaningless. At the same time, its special forever-refugee agency for the Palestinians, Unrwa, had to fire staff accused of involvement in Hamas’s Oct. 7 massacre. Our global moral beacon in action.
The ICJ tribunal indulged South Africa’s genocide libel by going ahead with a trial and trashing Israel for self-defense against Hamas. But the justices rejected Pretoria’s request to order Israel to stop the war. The court instead instructed Israel to prevent acts of genocide, punish incitement and facilitate aid to civilians—which Jerusalem is already doing. Israel will have to report back in a month, and the court could take years to decide on the merits.
As law professor Eugene Kontorovich writes, “That’s Jewish joy—they defamed us, treated us like no other democracy, undermined our right to self-defense, put the victim on trial—but it could have been worse!” All true, and an order to halt the war while Hamas holds territory and 136 hostages would have put Israel in a tight spot.
The U.N.’s credibility is also on trial, especially through Unrwa, whose reports the court relied on. After Israel brought evidence that 12 Unrwa employees participated in the Oct. 7 attack, the U.S. State Department announced on Friday a pause in funding to the U.N.’s Palestinian refugee agency pending investigation.
A new U.N. Watch report, to be released and discussed in Congress on Tuesday, shows “how a Telegram group of 3,000 UNRWA teachers in Gaza celebrated the October 7th Hamas massacre.” The message group’s administrators, identified by name and Unrwa contract number, are seen praising Hamas’s “holy warriors” and praying for them to murder Israelis: “O God, tear them apart,” “kill them one by one,” “leave none of them behind,” “execute the first settler on live broadcast.” One urged that Gazans stay in place to help Hamas...
Gaza will never be a peaceful refuge as long as its friends at the U.N. keep using it for anti-Israel purposes. Unrwa as it currently works doesn’t deserve U.S. support.
Sa'ar says he’ll start work on filing genocide case against Iran at International Court of Justice.
By Jeremy Sharon.
28 Jan 2024, 2:58 pm
Cabinet minister Gideon Sa’ar says he will begin working on having Israel file a case against Iran in the International Court of Justice on genocide charges, pointing out that Iranian leaders have called for Israel’s destruction and that Iran gives strong backing to Hamas and other Gaza terror groups that carried out the October 7 atrocities.
Numerous experts in international law have said that the massacres and other crimes carried out by Hamas on October 7 likely constitute a genocidal act since they appear to have been aimed at destroying “in whole or in part” a national group, in this case Israelis.
“There are public statements by senior Iranian officials in favor of destroying Israel,” Sa’ar tells the Kan public broadcaster.
“Iran finances, arms, and trains all the jihadi terrorists organizations including Hamas and Islamic Jihad which carried out October 7, so in my opinion there is an abundance of evidence which can be submitted to the court in the Hague,” adds Sa’ar, a former justice minister.
He notes that he has spoken with National Security Council head Tzachi Hanegbi on the issue and says that he intends to ensure that such a suit is filed against Iran.
“Israel is a small and persecuted nation that is fighting for its life and at the same time is fighting on the international stage for its right to self defense. It is a nation that is truly at risk of genocide given that there are enemies around it that declaredly want to destroy it,” he says
Sa’ar says he’ll start work on filing genocide case against Iran at International Court of Justice
* * *
www.timesofisrael.com
Why didn't the ICJ vote on South Africa's main request for a ceasefire? Because the ICJ ruling was political, not legal.
January 28, 2024.
There is a gaping hole in the ICJ provisional measures ruling issued on January 26...
Why didn't the ICJ vote on South Africa's main request for a ceasefire? Because the ICJ ruling was political, not legal
Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.
elderofziyon.blogspot.com
Last edited:
I wonder if this faux "court" would consider the fact that Hamas' CHARTER proclaims that genocide of the Jewish people is their unwavering goal. Their war slogan ("From the river to the sea...") is the promotion of genocide against the Jews.
Nah.
Any "court" that would grant legal STANDING to an entity that has no fucking connection whatsoever to the conflict at issue has no legitimacy.
Nah.
Any "court" that would grant legal STANDING to an entity that has no fucking connection whatsoever to the conflict at issue has no legitimacy.
peacefan
Gold Member
- Thread starter
- #5
well that's just an opinion by a single (group of) observer(s), really.Israel can limit the ICJ’s potential damage.
Israel must immediately end its acceptance of the ICJ's jurisdiction with respect to the Genocide Convention.
Eugene Kontorovich
(January 28, 2024 / Israel Hayom)
Israelis on Friday displayed what is called Jewish joy—they celebrated that the pogromniks only broke the windows, but did not kill anyone. The good news was the International Court of Justice did not effectively order us to wait to be tortured and murdered, by demanding a halt to the Gaza War. That is certainly good—but only in the twisted world where the ICJ is putting Israel, not Hamas, on trial for the absolutely absurd charge of genocide.
Otherwise, the decision was horrible. The court accepted South Africa’s argument that it has jurisdiction and that Israel could possibly be proven to be committing genocide. The case is not over and will go on for years. In the meantime, the court has made clear that it considers itself to have authority to review and superintend every aspect of Israel’s war for survival—and demands monthly reports. No other country receives such treatment, and it is designed to make the military constantly look over its soldiers’ shoulders.
i think more factors are at play and in consideration by many groups here.
better let them be properly oversighted, than to leave the election of ICJ justices to the whims of the people fed sometimes-corrupt views aired in mass media outlets.The ICJ is not an independent body—it is an organ of the United Nations. Its justices serve a renewable nine-year term, further undermining their independence. The judges are elected by the General Assembly and Security Council, and their positions largely track the foreign policy of their home countries. Thus while we might get lucky sometimes, over the long run, the policy of the court will reflect the policy of the United Nations.
yeah, and that's bad. but it can be fixed by changing aspects of the UN Charter, no doubt?The General Assembly’s obsessive condemnation of the Jewish state is well known—Israel would never agree to have its fate determined by them. But agreeing to the jurisdiction of the court indirectly does the same thing. In Israel it is thought unacceptable to have judges appointed by democratically elected politicians decide the meaning of ordinary laws. Yet we have agreed to have judges elected by dictatorial regimes decide the basic question of whether we can exist—whether we can defend ourselves.
It does not have to be this way: The ICJ does not automatically have jurisdiction over countries—they must specifically agree, typically by agreeing that The Hague can decide a specific dispute or questions under a specific treaty. In this case, Israel signed the Genocide Convention, which provides that “disputes between the…parties” about the treaty can be decided by the ICJ. But that does not mean cases like this, where a totally unrelated state has brought a purely political complaint in a matter it has no relation to. The court should not have accepted jurisdiction, and by doing so it effectively claimed for itself power to supervise the conduct of wars around the world, so long as some country claims genocide is involved.
Israel did not have to agree to the ICJ jurisdiction to be a member of the Genocide Convention, and in retrospect, doing so was a major mistake. Countries are allowed to opt out of ICJ jurisdiction in various treaties, and very commonly do so. Indeed, 16 countries have opted out of the Genocide Convention minus the ICJ jurisdiction—including the world’s largest democracies, the United States and India. Even the world’s biggest superpowers did not trust the ICJ to hear cases involving the use of force in an apolitical way.
Israel can limit the ICJ's potential damage
Israel must immediately end its acceptance of the ICJ's jurisdiction with respect to the Genocide Convention.
-
WSJ Editorial: The U.N.’s War on Israel.
The Editorial Board.
Jan. 26, 2024 5:51 pm ET
What a day for the United Nations. Its International Court of Justice (ICJ) issued a preliminary ruling Friday in South Africa’s case against Israel that managed to be both outrageous and meaningless. At the same time, its special forever-refugee agency for the Palestinians, Unrwa, had to fire staff accused of involvement in Hamas’s Oct. 7 massacre. Our global moral beacon in action.
The ICJ tribunal indulged South Africa’s genocide libel by going ahead with a trial and trashing Israel for self-defense against Hamas. But the justices rejected Pretoria’s request to order Israel to stop the war. The court instead instructed Israel to prevent acts of genocide, punish incitement and facilitate aid to civilians—which Jerusalem is already doing. Israel will have to report back in a month, and the court could take years to decide on the merits.
As law professor Eugene Kontorovich writes, “That’s Jewish joy—they defamed us, treated us like no other democracy, undermined our right to self-defense, put the victim on trial—but it could have been worse!” All true, and an order to halt the war while Hamas holds territory and 136 hostages would have put Israel in a tight spot.
The U.N.’s credibility is also on trial, especially through Unrwa, whose reports the court relied on. After Israel brought evidence that 12 Unrwa employees participated in the Oct. 7 attack, the U.S. State Department announced on Friday a pause in funding to the U.N.’s Palestinian refugee agency pending investigation.
A new U.N. Watch report, to be released and discussed in Congress on Tuesday, shows “how a Telegram group of 3,000 UNRWA teachers in Gaza celebrated the October 7th Hamas massacre.” The message group’s administrators, identified by name and Unrwa contract number, are seen praising Hamas’s “holy warriors” and praying for them to murder Israelis: “O God, tear them apart,” “kill them one by one,” “leave none of them behind,” “execute the first settler on live broadcast.” One urged that Gazans stay in place to help Hamas...
Gaza will never be a peaceful refuge as long as its friends at the U.N. keep using it for anti-Israel purposes. Unrwa as it currently works doesn’t deserve U.S. support.
Sa'ar says he’ll start work on filing genocide case against Iran at International Court of Justice.
By Jeremy Sharon.
28 Jan 2024, 2:58 pm
Cabinet minister Gideon Sa’ar says he will begin working on having Israel file a case against Iran in the International Court of Justice on genocide charges, pointing out that Iranian leaders have called for Israel’s destruction and that Iran gives strong backing to Hamas and other Gaza terror groups that carried out the October 7 atrocities.
Numerous experts in international law have said that the massacres and other crimes carried out by Hamas on October 7 likely constitute a genocidal act since they appear to have been aimed at destroying “in whole or in part” a national group, in this case Israelis.
“There are public statements by senior Iranian officials in favor of destroying Israel,” Sa’ar tells the Kan public broadcaster.
“Iran finances, arms, and trains all the jihadi terrorists organizations including Hamas and Islamic Jihad which carried out October 7, so in my opinion there is an abundance of evidence which can be submitted to the court in the Hague,” adds Sa’ar, a former justice minister.
He notes that he has spoken with National Security Council head Tzachi Hanegbi on the issue and says that he intends to ensure that such a suit is filed against Iran.
“Israel is a small and persecuted nation that is fighting for its life and at the same time is fighting on the international stage for its right to self defense. It is a nation that is truly at risk of genocide given that there are enemies around it that declaredly want to destroy it,” he says
Sa’ar says he’ll start work on filing genocide case against Iran at International Court of Justice
* * *
Why didn't the ICJ vote on South Africa's main request for a ceasefire? Because the ICJ ruling was political, not legal.
January 28, 2024.
There is a gaping hole in the ICJ provisional measures ruling issued on January 26...
Why didn't the ICJ vote on South Africa's main request for a ceasefire? Because the ICJ ruling was political, not legal
Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.
Pastelli
Platinum Member
- Nov 6, 2023
- 1,326
- 719
- 903
Forum outcast infamous RACIST motivated posting:
'Luiza' - Nazism:
(luiza.86585)
Gas chambers or Ovens - Nazi Luiza asks?
Exterminating J.
Against all Jews.
And more...
Today's Jews are as Jesus ethnicity she admits. But racist Luiza still hates via ancient lies canards stereotypes.
'Luiza' - Nazism:
(luiza.86585)
- Pro Jihad child killing.
- Admitting Jews today are the same ethnicity as Jesus . But often tries to lie about it.
- Advocates for genocide.
- Pro Jihad entities use of its children.
- Promoting Hitler garbage.
- Spamming the forums with despicable wording.
Gas chambers or Ovens - Nazi Luiza asks?
Exterminating J.
Against all Jews.
And more...
Today's Jews are as Jesus ethnicity she admits. But racist Luiza still hates via ancient lies canards stereotypes.
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