I would like to hear how teacher led prayer in public schools is constitutional

[Care4all]

please explain this to me because it baffles my mind

The burden is yours to prove. How is it unconstitutional? What religion is established by praying to God in a public school?

While you're at it, how is daily prayer in Congress, led by a chaplain, unconstitutional?

No particular religion - but the prayer is generally directed to a "God." There are folks who do not believe in God, regardless of which religion is used to gain access to Him. These people are called atheists. I believe the concept of God (or the equivalent for the particular religion) is common to all organized religions. Hence, forcing public school children to pray would be unconstitutional because it establishes a God-based concept which would run counter to atheism.

There are also religions which do not pray to "God" as such. I doubt that many (or any) proposed prayer sessions in public schools take these religions into account and, even if they do, it would still run counter to atheism.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

but george, HOW is it unconstitutional based on the precise words in the constitution for the first amendment?

Is the coach or teacher choosing to say a prayer, 'Congress making a law respecting or concerning an established religion'?

Is forbidding such action of a coach or teacher or any individual in the public square, undermining the second part of the religion clause in the first amendment....if not, then why not?

 

[George Costanza]

The burden is yours to prove. How is it unconstitutional? What religion is established by praying to God in a public school?

While you're at it, how is daily prayer in Congress, led by a chaplain, unconstitutional?

No particular religion - but the prayer is generally directed to a "God." There are folks who do not believe in God, regardless of which religion is used to gain access to Him. These people are called atheists. I believe the concept of God (or the equivalent for the particular religion) is common to all organized religions. Hence, forcing public school children to pray would be unconstitutional because it establishes a God-based concept which would run counter to atheism.

There are also religions which do not pray to "God" as such. I doubt that many (or any) proposed prayer sessions in public schools take these religions into account and, even if they do, it would still run counter to atheism.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

but george, HOW is it unconstitutional based on the precise words in the constitution for the first amendment?

Is the coach or teacher choosing to say a prayer, 'Congress making a law respecting or concerning an established religion'?

Is forbidding such action of a coach or teacher or any individual in the public square, undermining the second part of the religion clause in the first amendment....if not, then why not?

If a teacher in a public school insisted that all of his students prayed every day and there was a child in the class who had atheist parents and the parents took their child out of school because of the prayer requirement, those parents would be punished by the government for taking their child out of school. It would be the government punishing the parents in the final analysis. And what would they be punished for? Objecting to a policy in a public school which ran contrary to their (non) religious beliefs.

A teacher or coach praying "in the public square" is not the same thing as doing it in the classroom. "In the public square" implies an environment where those listening and/or joining in are free to come and go as they please, to join in or not, as they please. Furthermore, a teacher or coach praying "in the public square" would be doing so in a private capacity, rather than as an employee of the government.

The Free Exercise portion of the First Amendment stops where the Establishment clause begins.

 

[bodecea]

please explain this to me because it baffles my mind

I would like to know how adding time to the school day so that extra breaks can be given so Muslim children can pray is not a violation of Church and State when the argument has always been that even adding a MINUTE of silence was Unconstitutional?

Muslims has a requirement to pray at a certain time of day....period. They cannot get around it and still be a Muslim.

Christians are accommodated too....don't have school on Sunday.

 

[goldcatt]

The burden is yours to prove. How is it unconstitutional? What religion is established by praying to God in a public school?

While you're at it, how is daily prayer in Congress, led by a chaplain, unconstitutional?

No particular religion - but the prayer is generally directed to a "God." There are folks who do not believe in God, regardless of which religion is used to gain access to Him. These people are called atheists. I believe the concept of God (or the equivalent for the particular religion) is common to all organized religions. Hence, forcing public school children to pray would be unconstitutional because it establishes a God-based concept which would run counter to atheism.

There are also religions which do not pray to "God" as such. I doubt that many (or any) proposed prayer sessions in public schools take these religions into account and, even if they do, it would still run counter to atheism.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

but george, HOW is it unconstitutional based on the precise words in the constitution for the first amendment?

Is the coach or teacher choosing to say a prayer, 'Congress making a law respecting or concerning an established religion'?

Is forbidding such action of a coach or teacher or any individual in the public square, undermining the second part of the religion clause in the first amendment....if not, then why not?

Children in school are a true captive audience. They cannot leave, they cannot walk away, they are taught from Day One to listen to and obey their teachers. A high school senior may not be affected, but a first grader? A fifth grader? A seventh grader at that probably most awkward stage of life? From maybe a Jewish, Hindu, Muslim or atheist home? Being led in most likely Christian themed prayer (even if Christ is not mentioned) by a respected authority figure could be not only confusing, but would undermine the parents' right to school their minor children in religious matters as they see fit.

That's a far different situation than simply saying a prayer in the public square, where even the children are free to walk away. And it's different from an after school religious club, at which attendance is voluntary. It's the fact that in a public school during school hours the children are literally forced to sit and pay attention that's the problem.

O'Connor was right, a moment of silence would be appropriate. Teacher led prayer is not.

 

[Care4all]

No particular religion - but the prayer is generally directed to a "God." There are folks who do not believe in God, regardless of which religion is used to gain access to Him. These people are called atheists. I believe the concept of God (or the equivalent for the particular religion) is common to all organized religions. Hence, forcing public school children to pray would be unconstitutional because it establishes a God-based concept which would run counter to atheism.

There are also religions which do not pray to "God" as such. I doubt that many (or any) proposed prayer sessions in public schools take these religions into account and, even if they do, it would still run counter to atheism.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

but george, HOW is it unconstitutional based on the precise words in the constitution for the first amendment?

Is the coach or teacher choosing to say a prayer, 'Congress making a law respecting or concerning an established religion'?

Is forbidding such action of a coach or teacher or any individual in the public square, undermining the second part of the religion clause in the first amendment....if not, then why not?

Children in school are a true captive audience. They cannot leave, they cannot walk away, they are taught from Day One to listen to and obey their teachers. A high school senior may not be affected, but a first grader? A fifth grader? A seventh grader at that probably most awkward stage of life? From maybe a Jewish, Hindu, Muslim or atheist home? Being led in most likely Christian themed prayer (even if Christ is not mentioned) by a respected authority figure could be not only confusing, but would undermine the parents' right to school their minor children in religious matters as they see fit.

That's a far different situation than simply saying a prayer in the public square, where even the children are free to walk away. And it's different from an after school religious club, at which attendance is voluntary. It's the fact that in a public school during school hours the children are literally forced to sit and pay attention that's the problem.

O'Connor was right, a moment of silence would be appropriate. Teacher led prayer is not.

But at what point does one teach children tolerance and respect for other people's religious beliefs, instead of teaching them intolerance?

I am just playing Devil's advocate here....

And if Public school is not the Public square, what is?

I am not really speaking to mandatory prayer in schools....mandatory would mean it was made law or regulated, but more in the lines of Coaches, saying a prayer, before a high school football game....type thing.....this has been done for at least a century, but NOW it is supposedly not ok? What changed in the constitution to make this not okay now?

And again, where in the first amendment does it say what you expressed as your opinion?

What I am reading is CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW.....how the heck is a coach saying a prayer before a football game CONGRESS MAKING A LAW?

Do the words in the constitution and the first amendment mean NOTHING and it can be twisted to mean anything? I just don't see how it fits or rather how the coach saying a prayer before a football game, is breaking the actual first amendment words?

 

[goldcatt]

I can understand some folks wanting teacher led prayer in schools. But I also have to say with the many shades even of Christianity out there I wouldn't want a teacher I cannot choose and whose beliefs I know nothing about teaching my children about religion even in the form of one brief daily prayer. That's MY job. School is for the three R's, not four.

I have to correct them on enough bizarre information they bring home from the playground. I can't imagine how bad it would be if I had to deal with confusion in their little minds that came from an authority figure I keep telling them in every other situation to respect and listen to leading them in prayer that goes against the beliefs we follow at home. Do I undermine the teacher, or do I allow somebody else who is also a government employee to take over my job? Not an easy choice. But that's the Catch-22 that teacher led prayer would inevitably open up.

And the bottom line is if it's influencing children to believe a certain way, then it is a government employee teaching those children to follow that certain religion - and that's Establishment. End of story.

 

[Care4all]

I can understand some folks wanting teacher led prayer in schools. But I also have to say with the many shades even of Christianity out there I wouldn't want a teacher I cannot choose and whose beliefs I know nothing about teaching my children about religion even in the form of one brief daily prayer. That's MY job. School is for the three R's, not four.

I have to correct them on enough bizarre information they bring home from the playground. I can't imagine how bad it would be if I had to deal with confusion in their little minds that came from an authority figure I keep telling them in every other situation to respect and listen to leading them in prayer that goes against the beliefs we follow at home. Do I undermine the teacher, or do I allow somebody else who is also a government employee to take over my job? Not an easy choice. But that's the Catch-22 that teacher led prayer would inevitably open up.

And the bottom line is if it's influencing children to believe a certain way, then it is a government employee teaching those children to follow that certain religion - and that's Establishment. End of story.

I understand ALL of your concerns goldcatt, but how does this truly break the first amendment protection of religious beliefs in the public square, which means on PUBLIC property? People already had the right to practice their own religion or not to practice their non belief on PRIVATE PROPERTY....

the first amendment, if read as it is written, was to give people protection from the government prohibiting the religious practice of the individual on public property....at least that is what it appears like when read, word for word?

Who changed the first amendment over the centuries, for it to mean what you stand by? Supreme court decisions??? I suppose I could try to research that aspect and see what their rulings have been and their reasoning as to why....

 

[goldcatt]

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

but george, HOW is it unconstitutional based on the precise words in the constitution for the first amendment?

Is the coach or teacher choosing to say a prayer, 'Congress making a law respecting or concerning an established religion'?

Is forbidding such action of a coach or teacher or any individual in the public square, undermining the second part of the religion clause in the first amendment....if not, then why not?

Children in school are a true captive audience. They cannot leave, they cannot walk away, they are taught from Day One to listen to and obey their teachers. A high school senior may not be affected, but a first grader? A fifth grader? A seventh grader at that probably most awkward stage of life? From maybe a Jewish, Hindu, Muslim or atheist home? Being led in most likely Christian themed prayer (even if Christ is not mentioned) by a respected authority figure could be not only confusing, but would undermine the parents' right to school their minor children in religious matters as they see fit.

That's a far different situation than simply saying a prayer in the public square, where even the children are free to walk away. And it's different from an after school religious club, at which attendance is voluntary. It's the fact that in a public school during school hours the children are literally forced to sit and pay attention that's the problem.

O'Connor was right, a moment of silence would be appropriate. Teacher led prayer is not.

But at what point does one teach children tolerance and respect for other people's religious beliefs, instead of teaching them intolerance?

I am just playing Devil's advocate here....

And if Public school is not the Public square, what is?

I am not really speaking to mandatory prayer in schools....mandatory would mean it was made law or regulated, but more in the lines of Coaches, saying a prayer, before a high school football game....type thing.....this has been done for at least a century, but NOW it is supposedly not ok? What changed in the constitution to make this not okay now?

And again, where in the first amendment does it say what you expressed as your opinion?

What I am reading is CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW.....how the heck is a coach saying a prayer before a football game CONGRESS MAKING A LAW?

Do the words in the constitution and the first amendment mean NOTHING and it can be twisted to mean anything? I just don't see how it fits or rather how the coach saying a prayer before a football game, is breaking the actual first amendment words?

The "public square" is not usually used for a school situation, because public schools are not open to the public. The public square is usually used as I think of it for public property used by all - such as a park, or even a street corner.

No, the words in the First Amendment have a very specific meaning. The problem is that emaning differs from school of interpretation to school of interpretation. Are you an Originalist or a Pragmatist? What subcategory do you favor? What background materials do you look at for the meaning of the terms, and from what time period? It gets confusing.

If you look back at the common law atmosphere of the time the words "establishment" and "exercise" had very specific meanings. And a certain level of irreconcilable tension between the two appears to have been built in from the start. Many things about our system are that way, partly as an inevitable result of the compromises that went into building it and partly because there are questions for which there is no one set answer. Such as where is the "correct" balance between exercise and establishment, between the powers of government and parental rights, concerning the nature of speech and exercise, the level of rights and protections afforded children vs. adults and the voluntary vs. involuntary nature of the audience. And how have those things and the larger culture changed over time, so that the "correct" balance also changes? All big questions.

Which is why we have the Courts as arbiters, but they've also struggled with the question. There is no one definition or test for Establishment, and never has been for any length of time to my knowledge. I wish I had a better answer for you for the Big Question than "there really isn't one", but there really isn't one. As the law - ALL applicable law, currently stands the line is drawn at protecting the rights of the parents over the schools, protecting the rights of the minority aginst the will of the majority and acknowledging the involuntary nature of a highly susceptible audience. I happen to approve of those things and they make sense under my reading of the text and the atmosphere that was assumed when it was written, so I defend it.

 

[George Costanza]

What I am reading is CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW.....how the heck is a coach saying a prayer before a football game CONGRESS MAKING A LAW?

Once again - now listen carefully : Congress (or any state government) does not enact a law that says: "Prayer in public schools is mandatory and any child who refuses to participate will be prosecuted along with the child's parents." But there ARE laws mandating school attendance for children.

Now - suppose a family disagrees with a school policy of mandatory prayer, so they pull their kid out of school. The parents will be prosecuted if they don't get their child back in school right away. There are laws against parents not putting their children in school. I am positing the family cannot afford a private school and are unable to qualify for home schooling.

Now, when the parents are prosecuted for keeping their child out of school, they are, in effect, being prosecuted for violating a government (school) policy against prayer in school.

That's one way to analyze it. The more direct way is simply to say that a school is a government body and, as such, cannot impose religious ceremonies or rituals on students.

A coach saying a prayer before a football game. This is getting more gray area. Technically, if it's a public school, he is violating the First Amendment. However, by the time kids are big enough to play football, they are probably mature enough to opt out of the prayer if they so choose. Younger children are deemed incapable of making that decision and so, forcing prayers on them, would be more problematic.

 

[ConHog]

No particular religion - but the prayer is generally directed to a "God." There are folks who do not believe in God, regardless of which religion is used to gain access to Him. These people are called atheists. I believe the concept of God (or the equivalent for the particular religion) is common to all organized religions. Hence, forcing public school children to pray would be unconstitutional because it establishes a God-based concept which would run counter to atheism.

There are also religions which do not pray to "God" as such. I doubt that many (or any) proposed prayer sessions in public schools take these religions into account and, even if they do, it would still run counter to atheism.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

but george, HOW is it unconstitutional based on the precise words in the constitution for the first amendment?

Is the coach or teacher choosing to say a prayer, 'Congress making a law respecting or concerning an established religion'?

Is forbidding such action of a coach or teacher or any individual in the public square, undermining the second part of the religion clause in the first amendment....if not, then why not?

If a teacher in a public school insisted that all of his students prayed every day and there was a child in the class who had atheist parents and the parents took their child out of school because of the prayer requirement, those parents would be punished by the government for taking their child out of school. It would be the government punishing the parents in the final analysis. And what would they be punished for? Objecting to a policy in a public school which ran contrary to their (non) religious beliefs.

A teacher or coach praying "in the public square" is not the same thing as doing it in the classroom. "In the public square" implies an environment where those listening and/or joining in are free to come and go as they please, to join in or not, as they please. Furthermore, a teacher or coach praying "in the public square" would be doing so in a private capacity, rather than as an employee of the government.

The Free Exercise portion of the First Amendment stops where the Establishment clause begins.

Oh BS - if you're a reasonable human being, which most aren't, then when a prayer that you don't believe in is being said you just sit there with your mouth shut for 2 minutes so that those who do believe can pray. How hard is that to understand? No student will be ridiculed, much less harmed, over not praying.

The stupidest part is when jackass sues over something like this, it only hurts the kids because the school has to hire an attorney to fight it.

 

[rdean]

I can understand some folks wanting teacher led prayer in schools. But I also have to say with the many shades even of Christianity out there I wouldn't want a teacher I cannot choose and whose beliefs I know nothing about teaching my children about religion even in the form of one brief daily prayer. That's MY job. School is for the three R's, not four.

I have to correct them on enough bizarre information they bring home from the playground. I can't imagine how bad it would be if I had to deal with confusion in their little minds that came from an authority figure I keep telling them in every other situation to respect and listen to leading them in prayer that goes against the beliefs we follow at home. Do I undermine the teacher, or do I allow somebody else who is also a government employee to take over my job? Not an easy choice. But that's the Catch-22 that teacher led prayer would inevitably open up.

And the bottom line is if it's influencing children to believe a certain way, then it is a government employee teaching those children to follow that certain religion - and that's Establishment. End of story.

I understand ALL of your concerns goldcatt, but how does this truly break the first amendment protection of religious beliefs in the public square, which means on PUBLIC property? People already had the right to practice their own religion or not to practice their non belief on PRIVATE PROPERTY....

the first amendment, if read as it is written, was to give people protection from the government prohibiting the religious practice of the individual on public property....at least that is what it appears like when read, word for word?

Who changed the first amendment over the centuries, for it to mean what you stand by? Supreme court decisions??? I suppose I could try to research that aspect and see what their rulings have been and their reasoning as to why....

So Voodoo is ok? Can the teacher "chant" Voodoo to the students?

 

[ConHog]

No particular religion - but the prayer is generally directed to a "God." There are folks who do not believe in God, regardless of which religion is used to gain access to Him. These people are called atheists. I believe the concept of God (or the equivalent for the particular religion) is common to all organized religions. Hence, forcing public school children to pray would be unconstitutional because it establishes a God-based concept which would run counter to atheism.

There are also religions which do not pray to "God" as such. I doubt that many (or any) proposed prayer sessions in public schools take these religions into account and, even if they do, it would still run counter to atheism.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

but george, HOW is it unconstitutional based on the precise words in the constitution for the first amendment?

Is the coach or teacher choosing to say a prayer, 'Congress making a law respecting or concerning an established religion'?

Is forbidding such action of a coach or teacher or any individual in the public square, undermining the second part of the religion clause in the first amendment....if not, then why not?

If a teacher in a public school insisted that all of his students prayed every day and there was a child in the class who had atheist parents and the parents took their child out of school because of the prayer requirement, those parents would be punished by the government for taking their child out of school. It would be the government punishing the parents in the final analysis. And what would they be punished for? Objecting to a policy in a public school which ran contrary to their (non) religious beliefs.

A teacher or coach praying "in the public square" is not the same thing as doing it in the classroom. "In the public square" implies an environment where those listening and/or joining in are free to come and go as they please, to join in or not, as they please. Furthermore, a teacher or coach praying "in the public square" would be doing so in a private capacity, rather than as an employee of the government.

The Free Exercise portion of the First Amendment stops where the Establishment clause begins.

What I am reading is CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW.....how the heck is a coach saying a prayer before a football game CONGRESS MAKING A LAW?

Once again - now listen carefully : Congress (or any state government) does not enact a law that says: "Prayer in public schools is mandatory and any child who refuses to participate will be prosecuted along with the child's parents." But there ARE laws mandating school attendance for children.

Now - suppose a family disagrees with a school policy of mandatory prayer, so they pull their kid out of school. The parents will be prosecuted if they don't get their child back in school right away. There are laws against parents not putting their children in school. I am positing the family cannot afford a private school and are unable to qualify for home schooling.

Now, when the parents are prosecuted for keeping their child out of school, they are, in effect, being prosecuted for violating a government (school) policy against prayer in school.

That's one way to analyze it. The more direct way is simply to say that a school is a government body and, as such, cannot impose religious ceremonies or rituals on students.

A coach saying a prayer before a football game. This is getting more gray area. Technically, if it's a public school, he is violating the First Amendment. However, by the time kids are big enough to play football, they are probably mature enough to opt out of the prayer if they so choose. Younger children are deemed incapable of making that decision and so, forcing prayers on them, would be more problematic.

Suppose a parent pulled a child out of school over mandatory gym class.... You can't protest school decisions by committing a crime George, you know that.

 

[ConHog]

I can understand some folks wanting teacher led prayer in schools. But I also have to say with the many shades even of Christianity out there I wouldn't want a teacher I cannot choose and whose beliefs I know nothing about teaching my children about religion even in the form of one brief daily prayer. That's MY job. School is for the three R's, not four.

I have to correct them on enough bizarre information they bring home from the playground. I can't imagine how bad it would be if I had to deal with confusion in their little minds that came from an authority figure I keep telling them in every other situation to respect and listen to leading them in prayer that goes against the beliefs we follow at home. Do I undermine the teacher, or do I allow somebody else who is also a government employee to take over my job? Not an easy choice. But that's the Catch-22 that teacher led prayer would inevitably open up.

And the bottom line is if it's influencing children to believe a certain way, then it is a government employee teaching those children to follow that certain religion - and that's Establishment. End of story.

I understand ALL of your concerns goldcatt, but how does this truly break the first amendment protection of religious beliefs in the public square, which means on PUBLIC property? People already had the right to practice their own religion or not to practice their non belief on PRIVATE PROPERTY....

the first amendment, if read as it is written, was to give people protection from the government prohibiting the religious practice of the individual on public property....at least that is what it appears like when read, word for word?

Who changed the first amendment over the centuries, for it to mean what you stand by? Supreme court decisions??? I suppose I could try to research that aspect and see what their rulings have been and their reasoning as to why....

So Voodoo is ok? Can the teacher "chant" Voodoo to the students?

If the school board and administration is okay with it? you bet. Hint, they won't be.

 

[maineman]

from my perspective, prayer in public schools is a cop out. Why are Christian parents not praying with their children at HOME? I never wanted a school teacher to be my children's spiritual teacher... I wanted them to teach them academics and let ME instruct my children about matters of faith. Plus, I understand full well that many parents are NOT religious and do NOT wish their children to have to listen to prayer in school... and I agree with that. School is for academics... the Church and the home is where children are taught their religion.

 

[Rezonator]

It applies to a teacher in a PUBLIC school. PUBLIC schools are GOVERNMENTAL agencies.

And that's the prior problem: the Constitution does not prescribe compulsory education—or any other kind—as an enumerated power of the federal government. It has no business in education at all, and so all subsequent actions (e.g., No Stump Left Behind and forbidding free exercise of religion) are predictably insane, destructive, and a Constitutional quagmire.

 

[Care4all]

well, Goldcatt's explanation of a CAPTIVE audience makes sense to a degree...but i still see no amendment in the Bill of rights religion clause that protects the non religious, from the government over reach, yet this is what the religious clause in the first amendment has been twisted in to....?

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

 

[ConHog]

from my perspective, prayer in public schools is a cop out. Why are Christian parents not praying with their children at HOME? I never wanted a school teacher to be my children's spiritual teacher... I wanted them to teach them academics and let ME instruct my children about matters of faith. Plus, I understand full well that many parents are NOT religious and do NOT wish their children to have to listen to prayer in school... and I agree with that. School is for academics... the Church and the home is where children are taught their religion.

Let's be honest here, there is not a wide spread problem of teachers forcing children to pray in school.

Most of the time the issue is a Christian club has formed on campus and some jerk off protests because teachers get involved. That is some bullshit. These are clubs, voluntary, no one has to attend, those folks should have EVERY right to join a group of people who share their faith, and they should have EVERY right to encourage children who are interested in being religious to do so.

Our school has a Christian club, I haven't heard a single report of them coercing anyone into joining, or ridiculing someone for not doing so. In fact if we are going to get rid of clubs which ridicule non members, I would vote to do away with sports, not religious groups. So that argument is bogus.

This whole issue is NOTHING but an attempt to silence Christians, PERIOD.

 

[Care4all]

If I had children, I would not want any teacher, teaching my kids about religion in school, unless of course, it was a class on religion....I understand all of this....where I differ is with the football coach, saying a prayer before the game....I do not see how his prayer is TEACHING religion, I see it as his individual first amendment right, to say a prayer on public grounds....I see it as his right, according to the First Amendment, to be able to do such...at least as the First amendment religious clause reads....?

 

[ConHog]

If I had children, I would not want any teacher, teaching my kids about religion in school, unless of course, it was a class on religion....I understand all of this....where I differ is with the football coach, saying a prayer before the game....I do not see how his prayer is TEACHING religion, I see it as his individual first amendment right, to say a prayer on public grounds....I see it as his right, according to the First Amendment, to be able to do such...at least as the First amendment religious clause reads....?

They know this Care, just as they know that teachers aren't forcing someone to pray. But the argument is weak unless they lie and act like mean old Christians are forcing poor little atheist kids to pray.

Last school year we actually had some joker show to a school board meeting threatening to sue because he noticed a Bible in a teacher's car in the faculty parking lot.

 

[maineman]

from my perspective, prayer in public schools is a cop out. Why are Christian parents not praying with their children at HOME? I never wanted a school teacher to be my children's spiritual teacher... I wanted them to teach them academics and let ME instruct my children about matters of faith. Plus, I understand full well that many parents are NOT religious and do NOT wish their children to have to listen to prayer in school... and I agree with that. School is for academics... the Church and the home is where children are taught their religion.

Let's be honest here, there is not a wide spread problem of teachers forcing children to pray in school.

Most of the time the issue is a Christian club has formed on campus and some jerk off protests because teachers get involved. That is some bullshit. These are clubs, voluntary, no one has to attend, those folks should have EVERY right to join a group of people who share their faith, and they should have EVERY right to encourage children who are interested in being religious to do so.

Our school has a Christian club, I haven't heard a single report of them coercing anyone into joining, or ridiculing someone for not doing so. In fact if we are going to get rid of clubs which ridicule non members, I would vote to do away with sports, not religious groups. So that argument is bogus.

This whole issue is NOTHING but an attempt to silence Christians, PERIOD.

I am a Christian...and my faith is practiced in my life and taught in my home. And I would note that forcing children to listen to some coach exercise his first amendment right to pray does sort of go against the teachings of Jesus who said,

"Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you."

I would have NO problem with a coach or a teacher saying something like, ""Let's take a moment to either have a quiet conversation with our higher power, or have a quiet conversation with yourself".