I would like to hear how teacher led prayer in public schools is constitutional

[goldcatt]

well, Goldcatt's explanation of a CAPTIVE audience makes sense to a degree...but i still see no amendment in the Bill of rights religion clause that protects the non religious, from the government over reach, yet this is what the religious clause in the first amendment has been twisted in to....?

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Exactly. And this is where you get into the tension between Establishment and Exercise.

Does the right of any one student or group of students, majority or minority, to engage in government employee led religious activity during mandatory school hours supercede the right of all other individuals or groups to not participate in government led religious activities...period? That's your balance for teacher led prayer in school, and the answer seems pretty clear. Exercise can easily occur individually and/or outside school hours.

Now go on to your example of the coach offering a prayer. What are the facts? Is this a publicly funded activity with a government employee serving as the coach, and are otherwise eligible children excluded from this government-funded and sanctioned event for not participating? Are they free to do other things while the prayer is going on? How old are the students? Then apply your principles and balance your outcome. Is this a captive audience? How susceptible are the children? What is the net effect on parental rights vs. government control?

The balance gets murkier, doesn't it? Which is why there is no one easy answer, and no one test to be applied. I wish it were that simple, but the religion clauses are to some extent inherently contradictory to the point that many cases are individual judgment calls. Which makes it difficult for the people trying to follow the rules, so they follow the most restrictive set possible to avoid potential lawsuits. Speech is a cake walk compared to questions where the two religion clauses butt heads.

Look at it this way, if the Courts have never quite been able to resolve the issues, none of us can be expected to on a message board. And in a way it's good to keep them alive and people debating them, it means we never become complacent.

 

[ConHog]

from my perspective, prayer in public schools is a cop out. Why are Christian parents not praying with their children at HOME? I never wanted a school teacher to be my children's spiritual teacher... I wanted them to teach them academics and let ME instruct my children about matters of faith. Plus, I understand full well that many parents are NOT religious and do NOT wish their children to have to listen to prayer in school... and I agree with that. School is for academics... the Church and the home is where children are taught their religion.

Let's be honest here, there is not a wide spread problem of teachers forcing children to pray in school.

Most of the time the issue is a Christian club has formed on campus and some jerk off protests because teachers get involved. That is some bullshit. These are clubs, voluntary, no one has to attend, those folks should have EVERY right to join a group of people who share their faith, and they should have EVERY right to encourage children who are interested in being religious to do so.

Our school has a Christian club, I haven't heard a single report of them coercing anyone into joining, or ridiculing someone for not doing so. In fact if we are going to get rid of clubs which ridicule non members, I would vote to do away with sports, not religious groups. So that argument is bogus.

This whole issue is NOTHING but an attempt to silence Christians, PERIOD.

I am a Christian...and my faith is practiced in my life and taught in my home. And I would note that forcing children to listen to some coach exercise his first amendment right to pray does sort of go against the teachings of Jesus who said,

"Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you."

I would have NO problem with a coach or a teacher saying something like, ""Let's take a moment to either have a quiet conversation with our higher power, or have a quiet conversation with yourself".

In the verse you quote Jesus is talking about those who pray in public just for the sake of looking good in public. If people are doing that then that is between them and God, we are talking about people who want to pray in public for honorable reasons.

 

[Care4all]

from my perspective, prayer in public schools is a cop out. Why are Christian parents not praying with their children at HOME? I never wanted a school teacher to be my children's spiritual teacher... I wanted them to teach them academics and let ME instruct my children about matters of faith. Plus, I understand full well that many parents are NOT religious and do NOT wish their children to have to listen to prayer in school... and I agree with that. School is for academics... the Church and the home is where children are taught their religion.

Let's be honest here, there is not a wide spread problem of teachers forcing children to pray in school.

Most of the time the issue is a Christian club has formed on campus and some jerk off protests because teachers get involved. That is some bullshit. These are clubs, voluntary, no one has to attend, those folks should have EVERY right to join a group of people who share their faith, and they should have EVERY right to encourage children who are interested in being religious to do so.

Our school has a Christian club, I haven't heard a single report of them coercing anyone into joining, or ridiculing someone for not doing so. In fact if we are going to get rid of clubs which ridicule non members, I would vote to do away with sports, not religious groups. So that argument is bogus.

This whole issue is NOTHING but an attempt to silence Christians, PERIOD.

I am a Christian...and my faith is practiced in my life and taught in my home. And I would note that forcing children to listen to some coach exercise his first amendment right to pray does sort of go against the teachings of Jesus who said,

"Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you."

I would have NO problem with a coach or a teacher saying something like, ""Let's take a moment to either have a quiet conversation with our higher power, or have a quiet conversation with yourself".

again, I understand how you feel about this maineman, BUT WHERE in the constitution are you given PROTECTION from this happening...I see the protection in the first amendment, given to the coach to be able to say his prayer in public, if he wishes to do so.

 

[goldcatt]

Let's be honest here, there is not a wide spread problem of teachers forcing children to pray in school.

Most of the time the issue is a Christian club has formed on campus and some jerk off protests because teachers get involved. That is some bullshit. These are clubs, voluntary, no one has to attend, those folks should have EVERY right to join a group of people who share their faith, and they should have EVERY right to encourage children who are interested in being religious to do so.

Our school has a Christian club, I haven't heard a single report of them coercing anyone into joining, or ridiculing someone for not doing so. In fact if we are going to get rid of clubs which ridicule non members, I would vote to do away with sports, not religious groups. So that argument is bogus.

This whole issue is NOTHING but an attempt to silence Christians, PERIOD.

I am a Christian...and my faith is practiced in my life and taught in my home. And I would note that forcing children to listen to some coach exercise his first amendment right to pray does sort of go against the teachings of Jesus who said,

"Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you."

I would have NO problem with a coach or a teacher saying something like, ""Let's take a moment to either have a quiet conversation with our higher power, or have a quiet conversation with yourself".

again, I understand how you feel about this maineman, BUT WHERE in the constitution are you given PROTECTION from this happening...I see the protection in the first amendment, given to the coach to be able to say his prayer in public, if he wishes to do so.

To say his prayer in public is one thing. To lead an organized prayer as a government employee where children face sanction of some sort for not being present or not participating is another. That's where Establishment questions are triggered, and all of the other questions that go with it.

Anybody can pray, individually, anywhere and at any time so long as standard forum speech restrictions aren't being violated. But the question here is when can a government employee offer prayer as a religious activity, particularly in the presence of minors? When does his status as an individual end and his official capacity as an agent of government begin, and when is his audience's right to be free of government mandated religious activity set in? They're different issues, and all much more complicated than whether he, himself, can say a prayer any time he feels like it.

 

[maineman]

Let's be honest here, there is not a wide spread problem of teachers forcing children to pray in school.

Most of the time the issue is a Christian club has formed on campus and some jerk off protests because teachers get involved. That is some bullshit. These are clubs, voluntary, no one has to attend, those folks should have EVERY right to join a group of people who share their faith, and they should have EVERY right to encourage children who are interested in being religious to do so.

Our school has a Christian club, I haven't heard a single report of them coercing anyone into joining, or ridiculing someone for not doing so. In fact if we are going to get rid of clubs which ridicule non members, I would vote to do away with sports, not religious groups. So that argument is bogus.

This whole issue is NOTHING but an attempt to silence Christians, PERIOD.

I am a Christian...and my faith is practiced in my life and taught in my home. And I would note that forcing children to listen to some coach exercise his first amendment right to pray does sort of go against the teachings of Jesus who said,

"Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you."

I would have NO problem with a coach or a teacher saying something like, ""Let's take a moment to either have a quiet conversation with our higher power, or have a quiet conversation with yourself".

again, I understand how you feel about this maineman, BUT WHERE in the constitution are you given PROTECTION from this happening...I see the protection in the first amendment, given to the coach to be able to say his prayer in public, if he wishes to do so.

I suppose he can, if he wants to be a hypocrite by Jesus' own description. And I agree that his role as a government employee makes his asking students to join him a bit suspect.

 

[maineman]

Let's be honest here, there is not a wide spread problem of teachers forcing children to pray in school.

Most of the time the issue is a Christian club has formed on campus and some jerk off protests because teachers get involved. That is some bullshit. These are clubs, voluntary, no one has to attend, those folks should have EVERY right to join a group of people who share their faith, and they should have EVERY right to encourage children who are interested in being religious to do so.

Our school has a Christian club, I haven't heard a single report of them coercing anyone into joining, or ridiculing someone for not doing so. In fact if we are going to get rid of clubs which ridicule non members, I would vote to do away with sports, not religious groups. So that argument is bogus.

This whole issue is NOTHING but an attempt to silence Christians, PERIOD.

I am a Christian...and my faith is practiced in my life and taught in my home. And I would note that forcing children to listen to some coach exercise his first amendment right to pray does sort of go against the teachings of Jesus who said,

"Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you."

I would have NO problem with a coach or a teacher saying something like, ""Let's take a moment to either have a quiet conversation with our higher power, or have a quiet conversation with yourself".

In the verse you quote Jesus is talking about those who pray in public just for the sake of looking good in public. If people are doing that then that is between them and God, we are talking about people who want to pray in public for honorable reasons.

"But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret."

seems pretty unambiguous to me.

 

[goldcatt]

I am a Christian...and my faith is practiced in my life and taught in my home. And I would note that forcing children to listen to some coach exercise his first amendment right to pray does sort of go against the teachings of Jesus who said,

"Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you."

I would have NO problem with a coach or a teacher saying something like, ""Let's take a moment to either have a quiet conversation with our higher power, or have a quiet conversation with yourself".

In the verse you quote Jesus is talking about those who pray in public just for the sake of looking good in public. If people are doing that then that is between them and God, we are talking about people who want to pray in public for honorable reasons.

"But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret."

seems pretty unambiguous to me.

I happen to agree with you, maineman. But many Christians do not share that view. It's a good example of how even Christians disagree among themselves over how best to exercise their faith, let alone the members of minority religions. To some, participating in public prayer of this sort would even be considered sinful.

So tell me, how is mandatory government prayer that forces a child to do something he or she would consider sinful respecting that child's right to exercise? Going back to first principles, isn't that the whole problem with Establishment in the first place? Government using its power to force individuals to say, do, or observe practices that counter their own personal beliefs?

 

[ConHog]

I am a Christian...and my faith is practiced in my life and taught in my home. And I would note that forcing children to listen to some coach exercise his first amendment right to pray does sort of go against the teachings of Jesus who said,

"Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you."

I would have NO problem with a coach or a teacher saying something like, ""Let's take a moment to either have a quiet conversation with our higher power, or have a quiet conversation with yourself".

again, I understand how you feel about this maineman, BUT WHERE in the constitution are you given PROTECTION from this happening...I see the protection in the first amendment, given to the coach to be able to say his prayer in public, if he wishes to do so.

To say his prayer in public is one thing. To lead an organized prayer as a government employee where children face sanction of some sort for not being present or not participating is another. That's where Establishment questions are triggered, and all of the other questions that go with it.

Anybody can pray, individually, anywhere and at any time so long as standard forum speech restrictions aren't being violated. But the question here is when can a government employee offer prayer as a religious activity, particularly in the presence of minors? When does his status as an individual end and his official capacity as an agent of government begin, and when is his audience's right to be free of government mandated religious activity set in? They're different issues, and all much more complicated than whether he, himself, can say a prayer any time he feels like it.

Are you suggesting that being asked to stand quietly while others pray for 2 minutes is a sanction?

 

[goldcatt]

again, I understand how you feel about this maineman, BUT WHERE in the constitution are you given PROTECTION from this happening...I see the protection in the first amendment, given to the coach to be able to say his prayer in public, if he wishes to do so.

To say his prayer in public is one thing. To lead an organized prayer as a government employee where children face sanction of some sort for not being present or not participating is another. That's where Establishment questions are triggered, and all of the other questions that go with it.

Anybody can pray, individually, anywhere and at any time so long as standard forum speech restrictions aren't being violated. But the question here is when can a government employee offer prayer as a religious activity, particularly in the presence of minors? When does his status as an individual end and his official capacity as an agent of government begin, and when is his audience's right to be free of government mandated religious activity set in? They're different issues, and all much more complicated than whether he, himself, can say a prayer any time he feels like it.

Are you suggesting that being asked to stand quietly while others pray for 2 minutes is a sanction?

In which situation? The teacher led prayer scenario? Yes. Because it is government forcing a religious point of view on a captive minor child. The harm is implied, to both student and parent.

In the coach situation? It depends on the facts. Which is why it's more of a gray area. For example, is the child played less than others (or not at all) because of his or her refusal to participate in this prayer? Is participation a requirement to be part of the team at all? Is the coach instigating or allowing the student to be ridiculed, harassed or hazed for not participating? How old are the students? Is this prayer something the coach does in an official capacity and requires the entire team to be present even if it is against their beliefs, or a private thing he does and students are allowed to attend or not attend at their choosing? It gets trickier.

The rules for minors are different from those for adults, since there are additional factors at play. So context matters - quite a bit.

 

[konradv]

again, I understand how you feel about this maineman, BUT WHERE in the constitution are you given PROTECTION from this happening...I see the protection in the first amendment, given to the coach to be able to say his prayer in public, if he wishes to do so.

To say his prayer in public is one thing. To lead an organized prayer as a government employee where children face sanction of some sort for not being present or not participating is another. That's where Establishment questions are triggered, and all of the other questions that go with it.

Anybody can pray, individually, anywhere and at any time so long as standard forum speech restrictions aren't being violated. But the question here is when can a government employee offer prayer as a religious activity, particularly in the presence of minors? When does his status as an individual end and his official capacity as an agent of government begin, and when is his audience's right to be free of government mandated religious activity set in? They're different issues, and all much more complicated than whether he, himself, can say a prayer any time he feels like it.

Are you suggesting that being asked to stand quietly while others pray for 2 minutes is a sanction?

Of course it is. If you're praying, why would you need my silence, standing or anything else from me? To limit my freedom in such a way to accomodate something that's clearly unconstitutional IS a sanction.

 

[Annie]

I'm looking at just the last few posts, can someone link me up or direct me to about the page where there's a public school giving minutes of silence that the student body is supposed to observe? Schools where teachers are leading prayers? I don't remember seeing anything in the first page or two.

 

[Steerpike]

illinois has a law requiring a moment of silence in public schools. Pretty sure it is being challenged in court at the moment. A number of other States have them.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The right doesn't care about the constitution.

Then please explain to me how this applies to a teacher in a school.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

I'm sure someone has already covered this, but . . .

It applies to a teacher in a PUBLIC school. PUBLIC schools are GOVERNMENTAL agencies. The Constitution prohibits the establishment of religion by THE GOVERNMENT.

If a teacher in a PRIVATE school wants his/her children to open with a prayer every morning, they can do so.

The distinction has to do with who runs the school. If it's the government, i.e., a public school, Constitutional prohibitions and guarantees apply. If it's private, they don't (subject to certain limitations not applicable to this discussion).

But you knew this.

Sorry, but one person exercising their freedom of religion is not the government establishing a religion. It sure as hell isn't Congress making a law establishing religion.

 

[Annie]

illinois has a law requiring a moment of silence in public schools. Pretty sure it is being challenged in court at the moment. A number of other States have them.

I don't think so:

Illinois Moment of Silence in Schools Ruled Unconstitutional - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

Illinois Moment of Silence in Schools Ruled Unconstitutional

Thursday , January 22, 2009



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CHICAGO —

A federal judge has ruled that a state law requiring a moment of silence in public schools across Illinois is unconstitutional, saying it crosses the line separating church and state.
"The statute is a subtle effort to force students at impressionable ages to contemplate religion," U.S. District Judge Robert W. Gettleman said in his ruling Wednesday.

The ruling came in a lawsuit designed to bar schools from enforcing the Illinois Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act. It was filed by talk show host Rob Sherman, an outspoken atheist, and his daughter, Dawn, a high school student.

Gettleman's ruling was not a surprise. He had already ruled in favor of Sherman in two previous decisions.

As passed by the Illinois General Assembly, the law allows students to reflect on the day's activities rather than pray if that is their choice and defenders have said it therefore doesn't force religion on anyone...

I don't think there should be any 'moments of silence' proscribed by schools. The students though have every right to pray, silently before tests, lunch, what have they. It's their 'time' to use as they see fit.

I would be offended if my kids in a public school were led in prayer or some form of during the school day by teachers or administrators. Now if my kids were in parochial school of my choosing, different kettle and fish.

Can religion be addressed in school? Yes. I posted two good links in early part of this thread.

 

[Care4all]

To say his prayer in public is one thing. To lead an organized prayer as a government employee where children face sanction of some sort for not being present or not participating is another. That's where Establishment questions are triggered, and all of the other questions that go with it.

Anybody can pray, individually, anywhere and at any time so long as standard forum speech restrictions aren't being violated. But the question here is when can a government employee offer prayer as a religious activity, particularly in the presence of minors? When does his status as an individual end and his official capacity as an agent of government begin, and when is his audience's right to be free of government mandated religious activity set in? They're different issues, and all much more complicated than whether he, himself, can say a prayer any time he feels like it.

Are you suggesting that being asked to stand quietly while others pray for 2 minutes is a sanction?

Of course it is. If you're praying, why would you need my silence, standing or anything else from me? To limit my freedom in such a way to accomodate something that's clearly unconstitutional IS a sanction.

WHERE does the constitution, the first amendment, say such? What gives you these protections or rights, that you say you have? Can you point to the words in the constitution that gives you these rights that you claim you have? Are you taking the "religion clause of the first amendment? IF SO, please list the words in the bill of rights, first amendment or any other part of the constitution, that gives you these rights....are there any?

 

[Steerpike]

I don't think so:

Illinois Moment of Silence in Schools Ruled Unconstitutional - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

That's a District Court decision. They may well be still fighting over it. But that ruling doesn't affect the laws in other jurisdictions. I think at least one Federal Circuit has said moments of silence are OK. At some point the Supreme Court will probably have to rule on it.

 

[Annie]

I don't think so:

Illinois Moment of Silence in Schools Ruled Unconstitutional - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

That's a District Court decision. They may well be still fighting over it. But that ruling doesn't affect the laws in other jurisdictions. I think at least one Federal Circuit has said moments of silence are OK. At some point the Supreme Court will probably have to rule on it.

So far SCOTUS has chosen to remain silent on 'moment of prayer.' firstamendmentcenter.org: Religious Liberty in Public Schools - topic

The above is one of the links I originally posted. I've given the cached version here.

 

[ConHog]

To say his prayer in public is one thing. To lead an organized prayer as a government employee where children face sanction of some sort for not being present or not participating is another. That's where Establishment questions are triggered, and all of the other questions that go with it.

Anybody can pray, individually, anywhere and at any time so long as standard forum speech restrictions aren't being violated. But the question here is when can a government employee offer prayer as a religious activity, particularly in the presence of minors? When does his status as an individual end and his official capacity as an agent of government begin, and when is his audience's right to be free of government mandated religious activity set in? They're different issues, and all much more complicated than whether he, himself, can say a prayer any time he feels like it.

Are you suggesting that being asked to stand quietly while others pray for 2 minutes is a sanction?

In which situation? The teacher led prayer scenario? Yes. Because it is government forcing a religious point of view on a captive minor child. The harm is implied, to both student and parent.

In the coach situation? It depends on the facts. Which is why it's more of a gray area. For example, is the child played less than others (or not at all) because of his or her refusal to participate in this prayer? Is participation a requirement to be part of the team at all? Is the coach instigating or allowing the student to be ridiculed, harassed or hazed for not participating? How old are the students? Is this prayer something the coach does in an official capacity and requires the entire team to be present even if it is against their beliefs, or a private thing he does and students are allowed to attend or not attend at their choosing? It gets trickier.

The rules for minors are different from those for adults, since there are additional factors at play. So context matters - quite a bit.

You're being ridiculous. If a person is quiet and respectful during a prayer then no one else need know whether they prayed or not. Or are you suggesting that those who don't wish to participate have a right to disrupt those who wish to?

 

[Steerpike]

So far SCOTUS has chosen to remain silent on 'moment of prayer.' firstamendmentcenter.org: Religious Liberty in Public Schools - topic

The above is one of the links I originally posted. I've given the cached version here.

So you can see, the Virginia moment of silence was ruled Constitutional by the District Court, and the 4th Circuit agreed, saying it was OK. The U.S. Supreme Court declined to take the case, so right now the law in the 4th Circuit is that moments of silence are Constitutional.

 

[maineman]

In the verse you quote Jesus is talking about those who pray in public just for the sake of looking good in public. If people are doing that then that is between them and God, we are talking about people who want to pray in public for honorable reasons.

"But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret."

seems pretty unambiguous to me.

I happen to agree with you, maineman. But many Christians do not share that view. It's a good example of how even Christians disagree among themselves over how best to exercise their faith, let alone the members of minority religions. To some, participating in public prayer of this sort would even be considered sinful.

So tell me, how is mandatory government prayer that forces a child to do something he or she would consider sinful respecting that child's right to exercise? Going back to first principles, isn't that the whole problem with Establishment in the first place? Government using its power to force individuals to say, do, or observe practices that counter their own personal beliefs?

Christians who think that they can ignore the words in red are kidding themselves. Jesus said, "whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret". He didn't qualify that in any way. Prayer is meant to be a private and personal communication.