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In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.
If it is voluntary, non-coercive, and unanimous.
No one is ever forced to participate in prayer.
In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.
If it is voluntary, non-coercive, and unanimous.
No one is ever forced to participate in prayer.
are you purposely dense? the court rulings copied multiple times in this thread showed where teachers have been forced to pray under the threat of being fired and studnets forced under the threat of removal from the classroom
In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.
just ignore lonestar if you want rational debate
No one is ever forced to participate in prayer.
are you purposely dense? the court rulings copied multiple times in this thread showed where teachers have been forced to pray under the threat of being fired and studnets forced under the threat of removal from the classroom
I've seen no such post in regards to forcing people to pray, perhaps you could provide a link.
In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.
Prayer in school is legal, students already have the right to pray voluntarily, as long as it's not disruptive. Fact is the public has a right to pray or not to pray and that right is protected under the 1st Amendment. If you don't like it, then seek to change it. But why should a few such as yourself dictate when, where or how the rest of society, which is the majority of Americans, can exercise their religious freedom?
are you purposely dense? the court rulings copied multiple times in this thread showed where teachers have been forced to pray under the threat of being fired and studnets forced under the threat of removal from the classroom
I've seen no such post in regards to forcing people to pray, perhaps you could provide a link.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...-schools-is-constitutional-4.html#post2644440
samson posted some other historical cases throughout the thread like too
In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.
Prayer in school is legal, students already have the right to pray voluntarily, as long as it's not disruptive. Fact is the public has a right to pray or not to pray and that right is protected under the 1st Amendment. If you don't like it, then seek to change it. But why should a few such as yourself dictate when, where or how the rest of society, which is the majority of Americans, can exercise their religious freedom?
Prayer in public school is legal, provided it is not mandated, part of the regular, school routine or disruptive. In other words, students can voluntarily pray in public school on an individual (or group) basis. The public has a right to pray or not to pray, and that right is protected by the First Amendment.
What you are doing here is what so many do - thinking that the Free Exercise clause trumps the Establishment clause, and it doesn't. People can do whatever they desire in the form of religious observance on a PRIVATE or INDIVIDUAL basis. That right is protected from GOVERNMENTAL interference by the Free Exercise clause.
When, however, an agent of the GOVERNMENT, such as a public school teacher or a public school itself, attempts to force religious observance on students, then the Establishment clause steps in and prevents it.
See the difference?
Prayer in school is legal, students already have the right to pray voluntarily, as long as it's not disruptive. Fact is the public has a right to pray or not to pray and that right is protected under the 1st Amendment. If you don't like it, then seek to change it. But why should a few such as yourself dictate when, where or how the rest of society, which is the majority of Americans, can exercise their religious freedom?
Prayer in public school is legal, provided it is not mandated, part of the regular, school routine or disruptive. In other words, students can voluntarily pray in public school on an individual (or group) basis. The public has a right to pray or not to pray, and that right is protected by the First Amendment.
What you are doing here is what so many do - thinking that the Free Exercise clause trumps the Establishment clause, and it doesn't. People can do whatever they desire in the form of religious observance on a PRIVATE or INDIVIDUAL basis. That right is protected from GOVERNMENTAL interference by the Free Exercise clause.
When, however, an agent of the GOVERNMENT, such as a public school teacher or a public school itself, attempts to force religious observance on students, then the Establishment clause steps in and prevents it.
See the difference?
If there is no mandate, then there is no violation of the establishment clause. My argument is a person or even a student body has a constitutionally protected right to pray when and where they choose. When a group of kids kneel to pray before a football game, they are not forcing anyone to pray with them, whoever doesn't want to participate has the right to walk away or just sit there and ignore the prayer, but they don't have the right to stop the others that choose to pray from praying.
I've seen no such post in regards to forcing people to pray, perhaps you could provide a link.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...-schools-is-constitutional-4.html#post2644440
samson posted some other historical cases throughout the thread like too
Wow 1963, anything more recent?
Prayer in public school is legal, provided it is not mandated, part of the regular, school routine or disruptive. In other words, students can voluntarily pray in public school on an individual (or group) basis. The public has a right to pray or not to pray, and that right is protected by the First Amendment.
What you are doing here is what so many do - thinking that the Free Exercise clause trumps the Establishment clause, and it doesn't. People can do whatever they desire in the form of religious observance on a PRIVATE or INDIVIDUAL basis. That right is protected from GOVERNMENTAL interference by the Free Exercise clause.
When, however, an agent of the GOVERNMENT, such as a public school teacher or a public school itself, attempts to force religious observance on students, then the Establishment clause steps in and prevents it.
See the difference?
If there is no mandate, then there is no violation of the establishment clause. My argument is a person or even a student body has a constitutionally protected right to pray when and where they choose. When a group of kids kneel to pray before a football game, they are not forcing anyone to pray with them, whoever doesn't want to participate has the right to walk away or just sit there and ignore the prayer, but they don't have the right to stop the others that choose to pray from praying.
I actually must say that I do not find much to argue with in that statement.... if the students/team members decide amongst themselves to pray, that is perfectly acceptable. If the coach, as an agent of the school/government, attempts to lead that prayer, I think I would have a problem at that point.
Then, Smart33, be ready to be removed from a classroom. (1) do not disrupt the educational process, (2) do not coerce others.
please explain this to me because it baffles my mind
