I think we all agree

[Dot Com]

I'll give myself up. I was thrilled when we all went into Afghanistan. I yes a conservative have been a womans right's activist in the ME for a long time and at war on the net with the Taliban since the 90's.

I thought we could rebuild. I thought we could change things. I believed.

Oh I have been so sadly mistaken. And my heart is broken that we lost so many good young men and women fighting such a losing battle.

All for a dream that in the end will never come true.

In 11 recent years we've lost what--6,805? Faces of the Fallen - The Washington Post?

In 4 years in WWII, we lost 418,500 with a population of 1,300,000

My heart is broken,, too, that many more lost body parts and have conditions related to their injuries and experiences. And this government has proven itself not serious about taking care of them until Republicans got downright ugly about their neglect at the negligence of President Barack Obama.

NEGGED you pro-war drone!!!

Problems at the VA precede the current President & go way back [MENTION=29697]freedombecki[/MENTION] . The last Repub Prez (from your state ) & his volunltary war, which consequently flooded the system, didn't help matters either Sugar Tits I should know, I served and have utilized the VA on various occassions. You serve? You are a partisan piece of shit. Seriously.

 

[Redfish]

Obama inherited two quagmires from Bush and there were no good options. The advice of the military for a surge in Afghanistan was a mistake but Obama was smart enough to set benchmarks and stick to them. They weren't achieved so he did what he should have done originally and started the drawdown and withdrawal process. Obama was also smart enough not to get sucked into Iran, Libya and Syria. Overall Obama has a better track record than Bush when it comes to wars.

Horseshit------Obama inherited Iraq and Afghanistan because he was elected president-------BOTH parties caused the mess, Bush did not do it all by himself, and obama did not inherit it all on his personal shoulders------------Congress is to blame----both parties in congress.

Get over the partisan bullshit and put the blame where it belongs.

Facts are pesky things!

Congress was party to the invasion of Afghanistan and the majority to the population was behind it because it was a direct strike against those that attacked on 9/11. The initial execution was done properly.

Everything went downhill after the Bush administration started lying to Congress and the American people about Iraq and started a deliberate campaign of disinformation. The facts all point to the single cause of that unnecessary war, which is the point of your OP, as being what was coming from the Whitehouse.

Your entire OP falls apart if you cannot admit to the truth about the illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq.

No, I am not going to debate the FACTS because they stand on their own merits. The Bush Administration lied to Congress and the American people in order to illegally invade Iraq. Everything else is secondary to that. If you cannot be honest enough to admit to the FACTS then you have just destroyed your OP position.

Repeating something that you believe to be true is not lying. What Bush said was also said by both Clintons and many democrats---------are you saying they were all lying or are you saying that Bush was so brilliant that he fooled the very intelligent Clintons and others?

BTW, it was not "illegal" congress authorized and funded it. and Yes, they were all stupid to do it.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Horseshit------Obama inherited Iraq and Afghanistan because he was elected president-------BOTH parties caused the mess, Bush did not do it all by himself, and obama did not inherit it all on his personal shoulders------------Congress is to blame----both parties in congress.

Get over the partisan bullshit and put the blame where it belongs.

Facts are pesky things!

Congress was party to the invasion of Afghanistan and the majority to the population was behind it because it was a direct strike against those that attacked on 9/11. The initial execution was done properly.

Everything went downhill after the Bush administration started lying to Congress and the American people about Iraq and started a deliberate campaign of disinformation. The facts all point to the single cause of that unnecessary war, which is the point of your OP, as being what was coming from the Whitehouse.

Your entire OP falls apart if you cannot admit to the truth about the illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq.

No, I am not going to debate the FACTS because they stand on their own merits. The Bush Administration lied to Congress and the American people in order to illegally invade Iraq. Everything else is secondary to that. If you cannot be honest enough to admit to the FACTS then you have just destroyed your OP position.

I am totally consistent, I was opposed to the stupid Iraq fiasco from the beginning. I am just trying to set the record straight that Bush did not, and could not, do it on his own. The entire congress, the UN, the EU, UK and others are responsible, not one person.

In case you missed it I referred to the Bush Administration as an entity. That includes players like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfawitz, etc, etc. They were the warhawks who were the primary movers and shakers for the illegal invasion of Iraq. They could not get NATO support from the EU nations for that illegal invasion because the intelligence was faked by the Bush Administration. Everything stemmed from the warmongers in the Bush Administration and they are 100% responsible. That is an indisputable fact.

 

[Dot Com]

Obama inherited two quagmires from Bush and there were no good options. The advice of the military for a surge in Afghanistan was a mistake but Obama was smart enough to set benchmarks and stick to them. They weren't achieved so he did what he should have done originally and started the drawdown and withdrawal process. Obama was also smart enough not to get sucked into Iran, Libya and Syria. Overall Obama has a better track record than Bush when it comes to wars.

Horseshit------Obama inherited Iraq and Afghanistan because he was elected president-------BOTH parties caused the mess, Bush did not do it all by himself, and obama did not inherit it all on his personal shoulders------------Congress is to blame----both parties in congress.

Get over the partisan bullshit and put the blame where it belongs.

Facts are pesky things!

Congress was party to the invasion of Afghanistan and the majority to the population was behind it because it was a direct strike against those that attacked on 9/11. The initial execution was done properly.

Everything went downhill after the Bush administration started lying to Congress and the American people about Iraq and started a deliberate campaign of disinformation. The facts all point to the single cause of that unnecessary war, which is the point of your OP, as being what was coming from the Whitehouse.

Your entire OP falls apart if you cannot admit to the truth about the illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq.

No, I am not going to debate the FACTS because they stand on their own merits. The Bush Administration lied to Congress and the American people in order to illegally invade Iraq. Everything else is secondary to that. If you cannot be honest enough to admit to the FACTS then you have just destroyed your OP position.

^ that

Too bad freedombecki conveniently logged-off so that she doesn't have to witness the facts.

 

[Fishlore]

Go burn a flag and spit on a soldier.
You'll feel better

screw yourself. You have no idea who I am or what I believe. I am tired to seeing our kids killed and maimed for nothing, and when the interests of this country were not at risk. Until we learn the lesson of Viet Nam the useless deaths will continue.

We need to mind our own business and let the rest of the world mind theirs.

The frustration expressed in the above post is understandable -- especially after fifty years of inconclusive wars fought for reasons never clearly explained to the American pea pull.

I'm not sure I disagree with Redfish on this one but I have some idea of what many of the folks who would disagree have to say: the problem with minding our own business and letting the rest of the world do likewise is that there are a number of nations large and small that have no intention of minding their own business or who think of things beyond their own borders as very much part of their own business.

Russia annexes Crimea, whose business is that? Iran controls Iraq, whose business is that? Pakistan sees control of Afghanistan as necessary for domestic security, whose business is that? I could go on but the point is that these bits of foreign business (and there are dozens of others) have the potential to reconfigure the global balance of power in ways which would very much become own business and rather bad business at that. There is a balance to the world order which is always changing. Some of these changes are good for us, others are bad for us; better to prevent a disadvantageous world order now when it is relatively inexpensive to do so than wait until the situation is both costly and desperate.

Hitler could have been stopped in the Rhineland and brought down by a few detachments of French police. Japan's expansion in Manchuria could have nipped in the bud an agressive imperialism that eventually cost hundreds of thousands of Allied lives. The generation which lived through those horrors was more open to "an ounce of prevention" in foreign policy than those who have heard such arguments only as a stalking horse for the greed of America's global capitalists.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

American military foreign policy is still very much dominated by Munich, the Holocaust, the Truman Doctrine, ‘containment policy,’ and a powerful MIC that needs war to survive.

There are now those who attempt to make legitimate the doctrine of ‘preemptive war,’ predicated on the belief that the United States may start a war even though its allies or interests have not been attacked.

And there are those who believe that the world is a violent, dangerous, lawless place that can’t survive without American policing – that if we should seek to return to Fortress America, in time the world’s problems would come to these shores and compel America into international conflict once again.

We may all agree that the United States should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building, but as with other issues where we find agreement, we seem unable or unwilling as a people to translate that into actual policy.

 

[tinydancer]

I just want the people I elected who make really good salaries to find a way to fucking fix my pot holes.

Sorries. But I am so tired of these losers.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Afghanistan was actually executed well in the beginning but then botched when the focus shifted to Iraq. The war in Afghanistan should have been concluded and all troops withdrawn before the needless war in Iraq. History tells us that Afghanistan is where empires go to die. We should have heeded that lesson by taking down ALQ and then getting out with the implicit threat that we would come right back again if they tried anything again.

That's why Obama fucked up when he changed focus to Afghanistan?
Bush's strategy was right both places. Large military force in Iraq to unseat Saddam and bring order. Small elite force to help the Northern Alliance unseat the Taliban.

Obama inherited two quagmires from Bush and there were no good options. The advice of the military for a surge in Afghanistan was a mistake but Obama was smart enough to set benchmarks and stick to them. They weren't achieved so he did what he should have done originally and started the drawdown and withdrawal process. Obama was also smart enough not to get sucked into Iran, Libya and Syria. Overall Obama has a better track record than Bush when it comes to wars.

True.

These will forever be GWB’s failed wars, regardless the current administration.

But that shouldn’t be our focus, our focus should be keeping such a fiasco from occurring again.

 

[tinydancer]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

American military foreign policy is still very much dominated by Munich, the Holocaust, the Truman Doctrine, ‘containment policy,’ and a powerful MIC that needs war to survive.

There are now those who attempt to make legitimate the doctrine of ‘preemptive war,’ predicated on the belief that the United States may start a war even though its allies or interests have not been attacked.

And there are those who believe that the world is a violent, dangerous, lawless place that can’t survive without American policing – that if we should seek to return to Fortress America, in time the world’s problems would come to these shores and compel America into international conflict once again.

We may all agree that the United States should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building, but as with other issues where we find agreement, we seem unable or unwilling as a people to translate that into actual policy.

Then what are we to do? I'm spitting bullets over Harper's involvement in the Ukraine and I'm a mega conservative card carrying mother trucking member and I don't have one clue why you or I are involved in this bullshit over there. To the tunes of millions.

 

[tinydancer]

That's why Obama fucked up when he changed focus to Afghanistan?
Bush's strategy was right both places. Large military force in Iraq to unseat Saddam and bring order. Small elite force to help the Northern Alliance unseat the Taliban.

Obama inherited two quagmires from Bush and there were no good options. The advice of the military for a surge in Afghanistan was a mistake but Obama was smart enough to set benchmarks and stick to them. They weren't achieved so he did what he should have done originally and started the drawdown and withdrawal process. Obama was also smart enough not to get sucked into Iran, Libya and Syria. Overall Obama has a better track record than Bush when it comes to wars.

True.

These will forever be GWB’s failed wars, regardless the current administration.

But that shouldn’t be our focus, our focus should be keeping such a fiasco from occurring again.

The wars were a win. The nation building failed.

 

[deltex1]

I agree that Obabble is a moron and Hillary would continue the trend.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Horseshit------Obama inherited Iraq and Afghanistan because he was elected president-------BOTH parties caused the mess, Bush did not do it all by himself, and obama did not inherit it all on his personal shoulders------------Congress is to blame----both parties in congress.

Get over the partisan bullshit and put the blame where it belongs.

Facts are pesky things!

Congress was party to the invasion of Afghanistan and the majority to the population was behind it because it was a direct strike against those that attacked on 9/11. The initial execution was done properly.

Everything went downhill after the Bush administration started lying to Congress and the American people about Iraq and started a deliberate campaign of disinformation. The facts all point to the single cause of that unnecessary war, which is the point of your OP, as being what was coming from the Whitehouse.

Your entire OP falls apart if you cannot admit to the truth about the illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq.

No, I am not going to debate the FACTS because they stand on their own merits. The Bush Administration lied to Congress and the American people in order to illegally invade Iraq. Everything else is secondary to that. If you cannot be honest enough to admit to the FACTS then you have just destroyed your OP position.

I am totally consistent, I was opposed to the stupid Iraq fiasco from the beginning. I am just trying to set the record straight that Bush did not, and could not, do it on his own. The entire congress, the UN, the EU, UK and others are responsible, not one person.

Bush accepts the full responsibility for fucking up.

If you had advised him not to invade Iraq, you would have been retired.

 

[Kondor3]

Obama inherited two quagmires from Bush and there were no good options. The advice of the military for a surge in Afghanistan was a mistake but Obama was smart enough to set benchmarks and stick to them. They weren't achieved so he did what he should have done originally and started the drawdown and withdrawal process. Obama was also smart enough not to get sucked into Iran, Libya and Syria. Overall Obama has a better track record than Bush when it comes to wars.

True.

These will forever be GWB’s failed wars, regardless the current administration.

But that shouldn’t be our focus, our focus should be keeping such a fiasco from occurring again.

The wars were a win. The nation building failed.

Zackly! (exactly)

 

[deltex1]

Obama inherited two quagmires from Bush and there were no good options. The advice of the military for a surge in Afghanistan was a mistake but Obama was smart enough to set benchmarks and stick to them. They weren't achieved so he did what he should have done originally and started the drawdown and withdrawal process. Obama was also smart enough not to get sucked into Iran, Libya and Syria. Overall Obama has a better track record than Bush when it comes to wars.

True.

These will forever be GWB’s failed wars, regardless the current administration.

But that shouldn’t be our focus, our focus should be keeping such a fiasco from occurring again.

The wars were a win. The nation building failed.

When the ass kicking ended, the rules of engagement took over...and it was downhill from there.

 

[freedombecki]

I'll give myself up. I was thrilled when we all went into Afghanistan. I yes a conservative have been a womans right's activist in the ME for a long time and at war on the net with the Taliban since the 90's.

I thought we could rebuild. I thought we could change things. I believed.

Oh I have been so sadly mistaken. And my heart is broken that we lost so many good young men and women fighting such a losing battle.

All for a dream that in the end will never come true.

In 11 recent years we've lost what--6,805? Faces of the Fallen - The Washington Post?

In 4 years in WWII, we lost 418,500 with a population of 1,300,000

My heart is broken,, too, that many more lost body parts and have conditions related to their injuries and experiences. And this government has proven itself not serious about taking care of them until Republicans got downright ugly about their neglect at the negligence of President Barack Obama.

NEGGED you pro-war drone!!!

Problems at the VA precede the current President & go way back @freedombecki . The last Repub Prez (from your state ) & his volunltary war, which consequently flooded the system, didn't help matters either Sugar Tits I should know, I served and have utilized the VA on various occassions. You serve? You are a partisan piece of shit. Seriously.

Thank you for your service to the people of the United States, Dot Com.

 

[NYcarbineer]

We tried that after WWI, did not work out.

Wrong timeframe. We should have stayed out of WWI.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

I wish Democrats who agree with you would realize that what you said is the best reason to find an alternative to Hillary Clinton in 2016.

 

[freedombecki]

Horseshit------Obama inherited Iraq and Afghanistan because he was elected president-------BOTH parties caused the mess, Bush did not do it all by himself, and obama did not inherit it all on his personal shoulders------------Congress is to blame----both parties in congress.

Get over the partisan bullshit and put the blame where it belongs.

Facts are pesky things!

Congress was party to the invasion of Afghanistan and the majority to the population was behind it because it was a direct strike against those that attacked on 9/11. The initial execution was done properly.

Everything went downhill after the Bush administration started lying to Congress and the American people about Iraq and started a deliberate campaign of disinformation. The facts all point to the single cause of that unnecessary war, which is the point of your OP, as being what was coming from the Whitehouse.

Your entire OP falls apart if you cannot admit to the truth about the illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq.

No, I am not going to debate the FACTS because they stand on their own merits. The Bush Administration lied to Congress and the American people in order to illegally invade Iraq. Everything else is secondary to that. If you cannot be honest enough to admit to the FACTS then you have just destroyed your OP position.

^ that

Too bad freedombecki conveniently logged-off so that she doesn't have to witness the facts.

Huh? I am caring for a dementia victim, Dottie. I can't always be here. Some things are more demanding than hanging around here.

The facts have been discussed here that the Bush administration was encouraged by people from both left and right aisles to eliminate the terrorist camps in Afghanistan. I know this, because I was a scholar of Madeline Albright's notes on the War Crimes of Saddam Hussein at her online State Department page. And Saddam Hussein himself told his Arab brothers in the oil cartel that he was close to making his first atomic bomb, plus he had used biochemical weapons on tens o thousands of Iraqis in his own country as well as on Iran militia in his skirmish with them.

A better decision was never made in going to war with Iraq, and Sandi Berger was convicted of stealing information that showed Bill Clinton knew about the goings on in Iraq and did nothing about it.

You do remember Sandi Berger getting his little wrist slap from the Bush Justice Department, do you not for his thievery? He tried, but failed to whitewash Clinton's omissions. Bush didn't make a big issue of the Clinton lies and obfuscations. He dealt with the moment and did what he could about it.

I'm proud of Preident George W. Bush for doing the right thing at the right time and not whimpering about how it was all his predecessor's fault, and he didn't hide behind his desk, either. And he had zero help from the press, like the critical folks of CNN and MSNBC, ABC, CBS, and NBC. All of them were ex-officio members of the Clinton Spin Room, and they used everything they had (which was not very much) to slam Bush all over the public arena if he so much as sneezed in a room full of pepper.

*sigh*

 

[JakeStarkey]

"The facts have been discussed here that the Bush administration was encouraged by people from both left and right aisles to eliminate the terrorist camps in Afghanistan."

And Bush got it wrong because he was fed distorted evidence vetted by Cheney and Rumsfeld, which Bush then used to hornswoggle Congress and the American people.

They all should be in The Hague prisons.

Their only punishments are they can't go to western Europe, Canada, and some other civilized nations on holiday.

 

[The Rabbi]

So you are happy seeing our kids brought home missing arms and legs or in body bags? You think we should try to inject our since of values on the rest of the world and sacrifice our young to make that happen?

you are correct that we do not all agree, very correct !

Are you trying to channel RDean here?
Are you happy to see thousands dead in NYC, with people jumping out of skyscrapers in total desperation?

I did not say we should not have hit back after 9/11. We should have and did, the problem is that we did not do it smartly.

I am not saying that we should sit on our asses when threatened, we just have no business trying to inject our troops to settle regional conflicts (viet nam, kosovo, etc) when there is no threat to the USA

Missing the point. We can't always predict when there will be a threat or not. No one thought there would be any consequences to abandoning Afghanistan. Just because the planes aren't flying into your skyscrapers at that moment doesnt mean there isnt a threat just ahead.