I say MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!! You got a problem with that?

[SAT2]

Your claim that Christmas is no different is disrespectful to Christians, IMO.

 

[CMike]

That you demand it be called Christmas and not a winter holiday confirms that you want it as a religious Christian holiday imposed on everyone.

 

[Foxfyre]

That you demand it be called Christmas and not a winter holiday confirms that you want it as a religious Christian holiday imposed on everyone.

Well let's call Thanksgiving the autumn holiday then and the Fourth of July a summer holiday and New Years Day the second winter's holiday. Or we can call these what they are, what they were called in the Presidential/Congressional wording that established them, including calling Christmas Christmas which they did too. It is part of our historical and cultural heritage and we should not be ashamed of it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Your claim that Christmas is no different is disrespectful to Christians, IMO.

Well I guess I'm glad most Christians are more tolerant and accepting of non-Christian traditions than that Sat. Each to their own. I think everybody should be able to celebrate a national holiday in ways that are meaningful for them.

 

[SAT2]

Your claim that Christmas is no different is disrespectful to Christians, IMO.

Well I guess I'm glad most Christians are more tolerant and accepting of non-Christian traditions than that Sat. Each to their own. I think everybody should be able to celebrate a national holiday in ways that are meaningful for them.

Actually, I'm the one who thinks that. You're the one who wants to insist that everybody be happy celebrating her favorite traditions.

 

[syrenn]

That's the point I was making though. Thanksgiving was absolutely established to give thanks to God. That was quite specific in the Presidential proclamation to establish it, and has been obvious in every official Presidential Thanksgiving proclamation since. That is important to many religious people.

But for those, Christian or not, Jewish or not, who are not particularly religious, the National Holiday is a time for turkey and dressing and family and non-religious things. And that's fine. No problem at all. When I was a kid, the week before Thanksgiving vacation was the time to color pictures or make models of the Puritans and the Mayflower and Indians and a harvest and table full of bounty and other illustrations of the history of the first Thanksgiving. I hope schools still do that. It is part of our natural heritage and our culture.

And it is exactly the same with the national holiday that is Christmas. For the devoutly religious it is a high holy day to be observed with reverence and religious rites. For the rest of us, it can be that, but it is mostly decorated trees, tinsel, lights, Christmas music, Santa Claus, elves, and all the other imagery that has sprung up in our cultural experience as well as a special time to intentionally be with family and enjoy special Christmas treats and food. And that's fine too. It's all part of our national heritage and cultural experience.

There's something for everybody in all of it and that is the way a national holiday should be.

Sorry FF, Thanksgiving was not meant to be religious.

Thanksgiving was established by Lincoln during a time of civol war to try and bring the north and south together. Some woman ( ill look it up if you need it) talked about making thanksgiving a holiday it in Harper's Bazaar for years, and Linclon took it up as a good idea.


As to something for everyone in christmas.....there is something for everyone in just about every religious holiday celebration. Best time for festival food ya know

No need. Here is Lincoln's proclamation establishing Thanksgiving. I had to memorize and recite some of it, I think in fifth grade, for our school Thanksgiving program:

As in its original form, it is just one big block of type. I have inserted paragraphing to make it more readable:

By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God.

In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom.

No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People.

I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens.

And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.

By the President: Abraham Lincoln

William H. Seward,
Secretary of State

The original Thanksgiving was organized to give thanks to God for a bountiful harvest that ended the very real hardships encountered by the first American settlers. From Lincoln on, every single President has included in his Thanksgiving proclamation that the day is to thank God for all our blessings. Most churches have some special service recognizing Thanksgiving and there is much sacred music composed for Thanksgiving services.

And in spite of that, the non religious have made the national holiday their own and enjoy it as much as the religious do and appreciate it as part of the American cultural heritage. The religious and non-religious alike would mightily object if anybody attempted to diminish or forbid celebrations of Thanksgiving in almost any setting.

Again, Christmas is no different and I want us to preserve our national heritage and cultural traditions for that too. Lincoln needed something to try to heal and glue the nation back together...Thanksgiving was one of he ways.

Presidents add god into speeches becasue they would be ousted from office if they did not....god was the political orators trick for a very long time and still is to some extent.

the only thing religious i ever got out of thanksgiving was when my mother would "volunteer" to provide something for the entire congregations feast....and then come to me to produce it. You volunteered for what??? ... stuffing for... ... 300 people?

 

[SAT2]

And then you prayed, right?

 

[Foxfyre]

Sorry FF, Thanksgiving was not meant to be religious.

Thanksgiving was established by Lincoln during a time of civol war to try and bring the north and south together. Some woman ( ill look it up if you need it) talked about making thanksgiving a holiday it in Harper's Bazaar for years, and Linclon took it up as a good idea.


As to something for everyone in christmas.....there is something for everyone in just about every religious holiday celebration. Best time for festival food ya know

No need. Here is Lincoln's proclamation establishing Thanksgiving. I had to memorize and recite some of it, I think in fifth grade, for our school Thanksgiving program:

As in its original form, it is just one big block of type. I have inserted paragraphing to make it more readable:

By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God.

In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom.

No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People.

I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens.

And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.

By the President: Abraham Lincoln

William H. Seward,
Secretary of State

The original Thanksgiving was organized to give thanks to God for a bountiful harvest that ended the very real hardships encountered by the first American settlers. From Lincoln on, every single President has included in his Thanksgiving proclamation that the day is to thank God for all our blessings. Most churches have some special service recognizing Thanksgiving and there is much sacred music composed for Thanksgiving services.

And in spite of that, the non religious have made the national holiday their own and enjoy it as much as the religious do and appreciate it as part of the American cultural heritage. The religious and non-religious alike would mightily object if anybody attempted to diminish or forbid celebrations of Thanksgiving in almost any setting.

Again, Christmas is no different and I want us to preserve our national heritage and cultural traditions for that too. Lincoln needed something to try to heal and glue the nation back together...Thanksgiving was one of he ways.

Presidents add god into speeches becasue they would be ousted from office if they did not....god was the political orators trick for a very long time and still is to some extent.

the only thing religious i ever got out of thanksgiving was when my mother would "volunteer" to provide something for the entire congregations feast....and then come to me to produce it. You volunteered for what??? ... stuffing for... ... 300 people?

LOL. Thanksgiving was never a religious occasion for my family either and I didn't think of it as one though the Thanksgiving Dinner was one occasion in which we would not skip saying grace even if the folks watching football in the living room never heard it. But it was always acknowledged at church as you mentioned with an all-church Thanksgiving potluck. As a choir director I hunted for appropriate music for Thanksgiving Sunday and the preacher would always tailor his sermon on a Thanksgiving theme that day. But as a kid I loved Thanksgiving because there was so much special food and no church required.

But I'm glad you sort of recognize Thanksgiving as established as a religious national holiday. It was established that way and has been nationally recognized that way ever since. It has changed with the culture, but it is what it is.

I still say National Holidays are what people make of them. Memorial Day is a solemn occasion of visiting graves or laying wreaths or attending a military function for many. For most it is just a day off work. The Fourth of July is a time to be really patriotic for some and it is just fireworks and maybe a parade for others, or in our case, trying to calm panicked critters. New Years Day is full of traditions for some family--we HAVE to have blackeyed peas--but its just a day off work to watch football for others or to suffer a hangover after the New Year's Eve party.

Christmas is no different. A high holy day to some. For the rest of us a family time to exchange gifts, have special Christmas food, and enjoy the day.

It is all part of our historical heritage and our uniquely American culture. And I want to celebrate it all in all settings without fear of reprimand from the political correctness police.

 

[SAT2]

Instead, we should all be reprimanded by sanctimonious culture warriors demanding that the Jewish and Muslim kids all color Rudolph.

 

[rdean]

And a Happy Fucking NEW YEAR!

 

[Ravi]

Jesus hates people that pervert his word.

True story.

 

[SAT2]

I have been assuming that the thread title was irony. Maybe I was wrong.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I have been assuming that the thread title was irony. Maybe I was wrong.

You are wrong.

 

[Foxfyre]

Instead, we should all be reprimanded by sanctimonious culture warriors demanding that the Jewish and Muslim kids all color Rudolph.

I am unaware of that demand being made on anybody including those who aren't Jewish or Muslim. The thread title was indeed intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but you still aren't reading what I am writing if you think this is about forcing anything on anybody. This is about ALLOWING people to celebrate Christmas however they choose to do so without reprimand from the PC police. As far as school goes, if the kids are enthusiastic about having Christmas traditions at school, any teacher worth his or her salt should be able to figure out how to allow that without coercing anybody.

It is far more coercive to forbid it of everybody lest somebody 'might' be offended.

Ralphie's "What I Want for Christmas" theme:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEedFHxSVSI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEedFHxSVSI[/ame]

 

[Sky Dancer]

That you demand it be called Christmas and not a winter holiday confirms that you want it as a religious Christian holiday imposed on everyone.

Christian dominance is what it's all about. I doubt Jesus would be so aggro about his birthday.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What I have a problem with, is someone wishing me Merry Christmas when they don't wish me any kind of merriness at all. If they know I'm NOT a Christmas celebrant, Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays is more about THEM than me.

 

[SAT2]

Instead, we should all be reprimanded by sanctimonious culture warriors demanding that the Jewish and Muslim kids all color Rudolph.

I am unaware of that demand being made on anybody including those who aren't Jewish or Muslim. The thread title was indeed intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but you still aren't reading what I am writing if you think this is about forcing anything on anybody. This is about ALLOWING people to celebrate Christmas however they choose to do so without reprimand from the PC police. As far as school goes, if the kids are enthusiastic about having Christmas traditions at school, any teacher worth his or her salt should be able to figure out how to allow that without coercing anybody.

It is far more coercive to forbid it of everybody lest somebody 'might' be offended.

1. Yes, if it's in the public schools, you're forcing it on children. I doubt that the Jewish and Muslim parents want their kids coming home asking for a Christmas tree and gifts from Santa.

2. You're getting offended at people being offended by your pushiness.

 

[syrenn]

What I have a problem with, is someone wishing me Merry Christmas when they don't wish me any kind of merriness at all. If they know I'm NOT a Christmas celebrant, Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays is more about THEM than me.

I hate to tell you sky, but wishing someone anything is about you wishing your whatever onto some else.

ff will wish someone merry christmas as she celebrates christmas
Jews will wish a happy Hanukkah
muslims will wish a happy ramadan ( i think, dont know for sure)

and so on.

 

[syrenn]

No need. Here is Lincoln's proclamation establishing Thanksgiving. I had to memorize and recite some of it, I think in fifth grade, for our school Thanksgiving program:

As in its original form, it is just one big block of type. I have inserted paragraphing to make it more readable:



The original Thanksgiving was organized to give thanks to God for a bountiful harvest that ended the very real hardships encountered by the first American settlers. From Lincoln on, every single President has included in his Thanksgiving proclamation that the day is to thank God for all our blessings. Most churches have some special service recognizing Thanksgiving and there is much sacred music composed for Thanksgiving services.

And in spite of that, the non religious have made the national holiday their own and enjoy it as much as the religious do and appreciate it as part of the American cultural heritage. The religious and non-religious alike would mightily object if anybody attempted to diminish or forbid celebrations of Thanksgiving in almost any setting.

Again, Christmas is no different and I want us to preserve our national heritage and cultural traditions for that too. Lincoln needed something to try to heal and glue the nation back together...Thanksgiving was one of he ways.

Presidents add god into speeches becasue they would be ousted from office if they did not....god was the political orators trick for a very long time and still is to some extent.

the only thing religious i ever got out of thanksgiving was when my mother would "volunteer" to provide something for the entire congregations feast....and then come to me to produce it. You volunteered for what??? ... stuffing for... ... 300 people?

LOL. Thanksgiving was never a religious occasion for my family either and I didn't think of it as one though the Thanksgiving Dinner was one occasion in which we would not skip saying grace even if the folks watching football in the living room never heard it. But it was always acknowledged at church as you mentioned with an all-church Thanksgiving potluck. As a choir director I hunted for appropriate music for Thanksgiving Sunday and the preacher would always tailor his sermon on a Thanksgiving theme that day. But as a kid I loved Thanksgiving because there was so much special food and no church required.

But I'm glad you sort of recognize Thanksgiving as established as a religious national holiday. It was established that way and has been nationally recognized that way ever since. It has changed with the culture, but it is what it is.

I still say National Holidays are what people make of them. Memorial Day is a solemn occasion of visiting graves or laying wreaths or attending a military function for many. For most it is just a day off work. The Fourth of July is a time to be really patriotic for some and it is just fireworks and maybe a parade for others, or in our case, trying to calm panicked critters. New Years Day is full of traditions for some family--we HAVE to have blackeyed peas--but its just a day off work to watch football for others or to suffer a hangover after the New Year's Eve party.

Christmas is no different. A high holy day to some. For the rest of us a family time to exchange gifts, have special Christmas food, and enjoy the day.

It is all part of our historical heritage and our uniquely American culture. And I want to celebrate it all in all settings without fear of reprimand from the political correctness police.

I see thanksgiving as an established federal holiday ff..... not an established religious holiday.

I do think Thanksgiving is uniquely American and secular. .

 

[Foxfyre]

Instead, we should all be reprimanded by sanctimonious culture warriors demanding that the Jewish and Muslim kids all color Rudolph.

I am unaware of that demand being made on anybody including those who aren't Jewish or Muslim. The thread title was indeed intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but you still aren't reading what I am writing if you think this is about forcing anything on anybody. This is about ALLOWING people to celebrate Christmas however they choose to do so without reprimand from the PC police. As far as school goes, if the kids are enthusiastic about having Christmas traditions at school, any teacher worth his or her salt should be able to figure out how to allow that without coercing anybody.

It is far more coercive to forbid it of everybody lest somebody 'might' be offended.

1. Yes, if it's in the public schools, you're forcing it on children. I doubt that the Jewish and Muslim parents want their kids coming home asking for a Christmas tree and gifts from Santa.

2. You're getting offended at people being offended by your pushiness.

Well I have addressed this at length and, based on this post, you apparently either didn't read what I wrote or you didn't understand it or you just don't want to. I would suggest that you go back over what I have already written here if you are at all interested in what does offend me as you apparently still don't have a clue. I lose interest in your opinion as soon as you go ad hominem though. And I also know you're entirely out of ammo in the debate when you do that too. So do have a nice evening.