Zone1 I guess I am not a sedavacantist (the Chair of St Peter is "empty") after all

[notmyfault2020]

I thought I was a sedavacantist, meaning that I once held that the Chair of St Peter at the Vatican is empty because a heretic is there (Francis).

What changed my mind is that I re-read a book I have, written by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre called Open Letter to Confused Catholics and in it (p. 152) he says.. Well, first of all he says this (his words are in italics and mine are in brackets and/or highlighted):

[The] fact is that a grave problem confronted the conscience and the faith of all Catholics during the pontificate of Paul VI. How could a Pope, true successor of Peter, assured of the assitance of the Holy Ghost, preside over the most vast and extensive destruction of the Church in her history within so short a space of time, something that no heresiarch [not even Luther] has ever succeeded in doing? One day this question will have to be answered.

Then he says on 170 that

St Pius V.. canonized this Holy Mass [that was "codified" as "Mass of All Time" but was tossed aside at Vatican II] and a Pope cannot remove such a canonization any more than he can revoke that of a saint.

I'm trying to find the part where he addresses sedavacantism. Here it is on page 177

.. Paul VI has posed a serious problem for the consicences of the faithful. This pontiff has done more harm to the Church than the French Revolution.. [he gives examples].. But it is not a simple problem to know whether a pope can be a heretic.. theologians think he can be as a private teacher but not as a teacher of the universal Church. We have to consider the degree to which the pope intended to involve his infallibility [at Vatican II].

He then goes on to point out that

"[The] visibility of the Church is too necessary for its existence for it to be possible that God would allow it to disappear for decades. Who would be able to tell us where the future pope is? How can he be elected if there are no more Cardinals? While rejecting Paul VI's liberalism, we wish to remain attached to Rome and the Succcessor of St Peter..


So it's as simple as this: If Lefebvre says we cannot be a seda.. I concur. I trust him. I've read a lot of books by him or about him. He knew more about the Catholic Church than I do, presumably.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Sorry about the typos, which I have now corrected (hope I got all of them)

 

[DGS49]

Please give a little more explication of what went wrong during Paul VI's pontificate.

Are you saying that the Latin Mass was "canonized," and the current one is not legit?

The current pope seems to be doing more harm than good, but opinions may vary. Unfortunately, he has installed an army of his personal followers in the College of Cardinals, so "we" may be fucked for the foreseeable future.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Please give a little more explication of what went wrong during Paul VI's pontificate.

Are you saying that the Latin Mass was "canonized," and the current one is not legit?

The current pope seems to be doing more harm than good, but opinions may vary. Unfortunately, he has installed an army of his personal followers in the College of Cardinals, so "we" may be fucked for the foreseeable future.

well,that's an interesting way to put it.. and I won't argue. .

Yes, the Latin Mass was canonized or codified, if you prefer. The current one is .. not sure if it is valid. I tend to think that if the bread used at Mass is the kind always used, unleavened, and the priest intends to confect the host, it is a valid Mass but I would not swear to this.

All I know is that anti-Christs infiltrated the CC at Vaticn II and implemented many of the changes to the Mass that Luther wanted. But why?

Luther called the Mass an abomination.. worse than whore houses!

I'm sure the protestants here will love that.. until they recall that Christ established ONE Church and it existed LONG before the HUMAN BEING (formally excommunicated) Luther came along

 

[Coyote]

How has Francis harmed the Catholic Church?

 

[notmyfault2020]

How has Francis harmed the Catholic Church?

Do you have all day?

I don't. But for one thing, he tried to change Catholics' reverence for the Eucharist.. said divorced and unlawfully re-married people could consume the Host at Mass. 1 Cor 11:23 refutes this.

And I could go on and on.. but I tend to not like banging my head against a wall trying to get Protestants to understand my religion..

 

[Meriweather]

If we want to get technical, perhaps the Mass should be said in Aramaic? The reason Mass was said in Latin is because for centuries Latin was the language of which most people had a working knowledge. Time passed and Latin became a dead language and people no longer understood it, so the decision was made that the Mass is meant to be said in the language people best understand--their own language.

Latin was never the language of the Mass, rather the Mass was said in the language of the people. We returned to that. I am happy that in populated areas we can still find and attend a Latin Mass. There are aspects to it I find quite meaningful.

For example, in the days of Latin, the priest led the procession of the Mass as an entire people proceeding to meet Jesus. Everyone faced Jesus. Now, instead of facing Jesus, the priest faces the congregation because it is felt that the congregation responds and is much more interactive in the Mass when the priest is facing and speaking to them. Probably true, but I do like the symbolism of us all marching forward to Christ instead of the priest being the only one who marches backwards.

 

[Meriweather]

How has Francis harmed the Catholic Church?

I do not believe Pope Francis has harmed the Catholic Church. Rather, most complaints seem to be his focus on issues outside of Catholicism. One issue in particular disappointed many Catholics. A US Bishop ruled that Nancy Pelosi should be denied the sacraments because of her outspoken push for abortion--and abortion up to the day of birth which is definitely against Catholic doctrine. So Nancy Pelosi waltzes over to Rome and receives communion directly from the Pope. For many of us Pope Francis issued delievered a great slap to Catholic belief (life is our most precious gift), and I believe someday Catholic history will have this criticism of Pope Francis as well.

Most Catholics want the Pope to focus solely on Catholic issues and limit involvement in political issues. World War II is a great example where a few highly placed Catholic hierarchy spoke to the politics of the day, and to this day, all Catholics are broadbrushed with those words of the very few.

 

[notmyfault2020]

If we want to get technical, perhaps the Mass should be said in Aramaic? The reason Mass was said in Latin is because for centuries Latin was the language of which most people had a working knowledge. Time passed and Latin became a dead language and people no longer understood it, so the decision was made that the Mass is meant to be said in the language people best understand--their own language.

Lafebvre made the point that not everyone understood it way back when either (Latin) and that understanding all that happens at Mass is no necessary to lift people to God...

and said the fact it was a dead language was a plus because all currently-used languages get tweaked (my words) over time and the dead language so called.. would prevent that.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I do not believe Pope Francis has harmed the Catholic Church. Rather, most complaints seem to be his focus on issues outside of Catholicism. One issue in particular disappointed many Catholics. A US Bishop ruled that Nancy Pelosi should be denied the sacraments because of her outspoken push for abortion--and abortion up to the day of birth which is definitely against Catholic doctrine. So Nancy Pelosi waltzes over to Rome and receives communion directly from the Pope. For many of us Pope Francis issued delievered a great slap to Catholic belief (life is our most precious gift), and I believe someday Catholic history will have this criticism of Pope Francis as well.

How is this not harming Catholics? It is once again (not for the first time sinc V2) destroying Catholicism in some (albeit not absolute) way or another. It is sending a message to the whole freaking world that Catholicism is just another religion.. exactly what the anti-Christs at V2 wanted. Well, not all Catholics are buying it, to say the least. Millions have left the novus ordo Church..

 

[Meriweather]

How is this not harming Catholics? It is once again (not for the first time sinc V2) destroying Catholicism in some (albeit not absolute) way or another. It is sending a message to the whole freaking world that Catholicism is just another religion.. exactly what the anti-Christs at V2 wanted. Well, not all Catholics are buying it, to say the least. Millions have left the novus ordo Church..

The Pope is not the Church. We are the Church. As for those who left...shrug. That has been the history of the Church or have you forgotten about the Protestant Reformation?

Seriously, the Catholic and Orthodox Church use the greatest discipline in the following of Christ's ways and teachings. The others are pretty much "Catholic Lite" where people have found an easier path--and perhaps that is all that is needed. The trouble with always looking for an easier way is that eventually the easier way is not to follow any faith at all.

That is why if Catholicism crumbles I will be attending Jewish rites because Judaism, too, is a religion that requires focus and discipline in reaching the ideal.

 

[notmyfault2020]

The Pope is not the Church. We are the Church. As for those who left...shrug. That has been the history of the Church or have you forgotten about the Protestant Reformation?

Seriously, the Catholic and Orthodox Church use the greatest discipline in the following of Christ's ways and teachings. The others are pretty much "Catholic Lite" where people have found an easier path--and perhaps that is all that is needed. The trouble with always looking for an easier way is that eventually the easier way is not to follow any faith at all.

That is why if Catholicism crumbles I will be attending Jewish rites because Judaism, too, is a religion that requires focus and discipline in reaching the ideal.

The true Faith survived due to the efforts of Lefebvre and Co.

The novus ordo Church is on a bad track, has separated from it's foundation. What happens when a house does that?

 

[Meriweather]

The true Faith survived due to the efforts of Lefebvre and Co.

The novus ordo Church is on a bad track, has separated from it's foundation. What happens when a house does that?

I see it differently. You seem focused on the Church and what the Church is doing. The Church has done a lot of things down through time. Whatever else the Church is doing, its foundation is Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Whatever else the Church may have done, that foundation of the Church dropped me directly into the lap of God because the daily Mass, the Sunday Mass, the parish community centered on building community with Scripture study, continuing education, and helping those in need is far from whatever Rome does. Our focus is on Christ, following the ways of Christ, and an enriching prayer life.

Rome sometimes gets itself wrapped up in bureaucracy, which is a shame, and it is up to the Church community to then steady them and return that focus onto Christ and off the world. Jesus did not indulge much in politics, and neither should we.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I see it differently. You seem focused on the Church and what the Church is doing. The Church has done a lot of things down through time. Whatever else the Church is doing, its foundation is Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Whatever else the Church may have done, that foundation of the Church dropped me directly into the lap of God because the daily Mass, the Sunday Mass, the parish community centered on building community with Scripture study, continuing education, and helping those in need is far from whatever Rome does. Our focus is on Christ, following the ways of Christ, and an enriching prayer life.

Rome sometimes gets itself wrapped up in bureaucracy, which is a shame, and it is up to the Church community to then steady them and return that focus onto Christ and off the world. Jesus did not indulge much in politics, and neither should we.

You are correct on some things, but not all.

As one saint said.. probably far more than one.. "The Church IS Christ"

 

[Meriweather]

As one saint said.. probably far more than one.. "The Church IS Christ"

Correct, and it is the people who are the Body of Christ. The people deeply involved in bureaucratic matters perhaps not so much. Where is the heart? On Christ or on world politics?

 

[notmyfault2020]

Correct, and it is the people who are the Body of Christ. The people deeply involved in bureaucratic matters perhaps not so much. Where is the heart? On Christ or on world politics?

one's heart cannot be on both?

one's heart had best be on both.. There is massive evil going on.. it is taking over entirely.. case u haven't noticed. That brings me to this point: I don't see you on Politics or Current Events much or at all.. seems like not at all.

Best example: While christians were refraining from dirtying their hands w/ "politics" so called... Politics (leftists who couldn't care about human beings) were (are) advocating for greater and greater "liberties" to destroy human life in the womb. Now they nonchalantly advocate for murder of the unborn up until the day the child is to be born.

Other people, however, fought against it in myriad ways and today, that fight has produced much fruit. Finally Roe is GONE.

So I am getting very tired of hearing how somehow politics and religion oppose one another.

BS!

 

[Meriweather]

I don't see you on Politics or Current Events much or at all.. seems like not at all.

Correct. There are only so many hours in a day. I can put Biblical teachings to work in every day life, in fact not only in most hours, even many minutes.

Politics: Decades ago, I saw corporations buying up all the news media and apparently small businesses and partnerships were willing to sell out at a great profit. I saw US businesses being transferred over seas; I saw foreign workers being brought into the US. American college students had to step aside for those who lived outside the country. Of course I spoke out, watched my votes, etc. and there was not a single, solitary thing I could do. Even when those I voted for because they promised to reverse the trend were elected nothing changed, in fact all of this continued to expand.

Our government is run by a machine, and it is particularly noticeable in the Democrat Party, but no bureaucracy or party is immune. The machine got subservient citizens to elect to the Presidency a man suffering from dementia. The machine scorns us citizens, detests us, while at the same time holding us in such contempt they can rub our noses in what they can get us to do. We are so subservient to the machine, we elect the demented, and there is a good chance we will elect someone suffering from the aftermaths of a stroke to the Senate. To the machine we are merely lemmings. Look at what they can get us to do! We deserve their contempt, we deserve to be their subservient slaves.

Meanwhile, Jesus taught us to look after ourselves by seeking the will of God and following it; to care for those who are at our doorstep, not those miles away in our Capitols. We can have some effect for those at our doorstep and our work communities. For example, I teach, and try to do what I can to help students along their way.

The nation is doomed, but I still hold hope for our young people. I work towards that instead of tilting at the DC Machines. They are not worth my time.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Correct. There are only so many hours in a day. I can put Biblical teachings to work in every day life, in fact not only in most hours, even many minutes.

Politics: Decades ago, I saw corporations buying up all the news media and apparently small businesses and partnerships were willing to sell out at a great profit. I saw US businesses being transferred over seas; I saw foreign workers being brought into the US. American college students had to step aside for those who lived outside the country. Of course I spoke out, watched my votes, etc. and there was not a single, solitary thing I could do. Even when those I voted for because they promised to reverse the trend were elected nothing changed, in fact all of this continued to expand.

Our government is run by a machine, and it is particularly noticeable in the Democrat Party, but no bureaucracy or party is immune. The machine got subservient citizens to elect to the Presidency a man suffering from dementia. The machine scorns us citizens, detests us, while at the same time holding us in such contempt they can rub our noses in what they can get us to do. We are so subservient to the machine, we elect the demented, and there is a good chance we will elect someone suffering from the aftermaths of a stroke to the Senate. To the machine we are merely lemmings. Look at what they can get us to do! We deserve their contempt, we deserve to be their subservient slaves.

Meanwhile, Jesus taught us to look after ourselves by seeking the will of God and following it; to care for those who are at our doorstep, not those miles away in our Capitols. We can have some effect for those at our doorstep and our work communities. For example, I teach, and try to do what I can to help students along their way.

The nation is doomed, but I still hold hope for our young people. I work towards that instead of tilting at the DC Machines. They are not worth my time.

I agree totally. And yet, how is that machine ever going to be fixed if we do not get involved and vote for people who will fix it?

Yes, I know.. not all candidates, maybe not even a good # of them.. are into fixing a damn thing.. but act like they will. Oh, yes, they can act, can't they?

Well, at the risk of going off track a little here, Herschel Walker has offered to (or already done this?) pay the delinquent rent on buildings owned by his opponent's "church." The opponent Warnock was actually evicting people over such small sums as $28, i have heard!

So yeh, just making the point that some politicians ARE trying AND put their $$ where their mouth is..

 

[The Irish Ram]

You are so all over the place. Let me point something out to you. How much closer to Christ you would be if you had spent this time researching Him and His word, instead of a worldly church.
Draw closer to Christ and he'll give you the answers to your questions. Let the Vatican figure out the Vatican...

 

[Meriweather]

Let the Vatican figure out the Vatican...

This I pretty much agree with.