CDZ How would YOU deal with this Business Situation?....

[Anathema]

Have the Union Rep supply the replacement from either the people in house or from another union shop.
Stinks to be union.

There is nobody in-house who wants it, and this is the only location for this Department in the Company. There is ONE other person in the entier Company/Union who is qualified to take the position, and he LEFT the Department 4 years ago to pursue interests on the Operations side of the Company. He has less than no interest in coming back to the Department.

On the stinking.... Not really. If this Department were non-Union, one of the three Techs would simply be told they HAD TO take on that new workload/position and might not even get the promotion to do so. Now, those three have the right to say they don't want to do that work, and would rather remain doing what they've been doing.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Oh, I fully understand. I know all about greedy unions and members. I understand the selfish greed factor. I'm well aware of the unions intent, their control over businesses and union members, and their ill affect on our economy.

So let me get this straight..... YOU are saying that it would have been better off for the 90+ of us (between 2 departments) who Unionized in 2009 ti have lost our jobs in that economy rather than joining the Union? IS that REALLY what you're suggesting?

What I am saying, is that unions and union members are all about greed. It's hard to argue with facts.
(1) Unions' Purpose - Unions are in place to force businesses to pay at a certain rate, offer certain benefits, promote and hire certain workers, detail job responsibilities, and to keep a threat hanging over the heads of a business.
(2) Unions' Investment - Unions never invest one single penny into a business to get it started, to get it up and running, to establish a customer base, nor to properly manage the business. They have zero invested.
(3) Unions' Extortion - Unions use the threat of an employee "walk-out" if union rules and agreements are not strictly followed, if pay rates are not honored, and if a business fails to bargain. Basically, it's mafia style strong-arm tactics without the actual use of violence.
(4) Unions' Profit - Union leaders collect dues and an initial "joining fee". This money is not spent on anything other than to line the pockets of union leaders. If a union calls for a strike, it's up to union members to continue paying their mortgage, loans, utilities, food cost, transportation cost, health care cost, and other living expenses. Unions do not give union members a check every month during a strike ( walk-out ) to cover the cost of their debt obligations. In other words, union members pay to have someone talk for them instead of talking for themselves, and pay to support union leadership.
(5) Unions' Game - The typical union tactic is to wait until a business is up and running, then they encourage workers to unionize. They never start a business, invest in it's formation, nor invest in it's efforts to become profitable. They always wait until a business has a customer base, then threaten a "work stoppage" unless their conditions and terms are met. The business usually complies in order to met contract deadlines, and keep from interrupting production. It's the fear of business management that makes this an effective weapon for unions. As long as a union can control union members, the mafia style threat of a work stoppage continually hangs over the heads on business management and ownership.

******** Unions are all about GREED. Union workers want to make lots of money, and union leaders want a slice of the pie without anything except time invested. We have labor laws that protect workers. We have OSHA that ensures worker safety. Unions have no real purpose except GREED.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Hire a monkey to fill the position.

No, I'm completely serious

Hire a monkey

 

[Darkwind]

I'm especially interested in hearing from business owners, managers, and supervisory personnel on this issue, but wonder if others may have run into something similar before, themselves.....

You are the Manager of a Union Department that has four classifications (in ascending order..... Tech B, Tech A, Tech, Sr Tech). One of your two Senior Techs is retiring. You have three Techs who are all qualified to move up to the Senior Tech position, but none of them want it. This is largely due to the significant change in the type of work the Senior Tech position requires, the increased stress of the job, and the minimal increase (about $5500 a year) in pay rate. You have two Tech A's and one Tech B; none of whom can qualify to take the Senior Tech position.

How do you proceed/what do you do?

Here are the stipulations........

1. You cannot de-unionize the department
2. There are no other qualified Union candidates in the Company
2. You cannot bring in a candidate off the street due to Union rules

I'll answer any pertinent questions you may have.

Is number 3 (you have labeled as 2) an actual restriction? Read your CBA. I think you find that the language says you must post the job opening internally first, wait a specific number of days for qualified candidates to apply, and if none come forward or those who do are not qualified, you can then go outside the company.

 

[Anathema]

What I am saying, is that unions and union members are all about greed. It's hard to argue with facts......

None of that answers the question I asked..... if we shouldn't have Unionized, what should we have done? Just expect to be laid off, required to do more work for less pay, work extra hours with no compensation? That's what thus company was proposing. I SHATTER diesnt cover those things.

 

[Sonny Clark]

What I am saying, is that unions and union members are all about greed. It's hard to argue with facts......

None of that answers the question I asked..... if we shouldn't have Unionized, what should we have done? Just expect to be laid off, required to do more work for less pay, work extra hours with no compensation? That's what thus company was proposing. I SHATTER diesnt cover those things.

Workers are free to look for work anywhere. Workers are not forced to join unions. Workers have a choice. Businesses have a choice. Unions exist because greedy workers want more money, and companies don't want to interrupt their businesses, especially when they have huge contracts and delivery deadlines. That's exactly where the "union leverage" comes in. Workers see fat paychecks, and businesses see meeting deadlines and uninterrupted production. Otherwise, unions couldn't exist. GREED is the name of the game. No one holds a gun to workers' heads and makes them join a union. Every worker has the right to go look for work elsewhere. And, every business has the right hire anyone they want to, or to just close their doors.

 

[Anathema]

Is number 3 (you have labeled as 2) an actual restriction? Read your CBA. I think you find that the language says you must post the job opening internally first, wait a specific number of days for qualified candidates to apply, and if none come forward or those who do are not qualified, you can then go outside the company.

AFer having several EXTENDED conversations last night with our Union Officers, here's what they can do and what they have to do.....

In accordance with the 2009 MOU regarding grandfathering of existing Techs to the Senior Tech position, the three Techs would have to be given the first opportunity to advance to Senior. Nobody wants the job, so that requirement is satisfied.

Post the job in-house, per normal Union posting requirements (Location, then Local, then General). Since there's only one other individiual in the Company who is qualified for the position, and he doesn't want it, that requirement qould be quailified over about a 5 week period of time.

Then, and ONLY then, could they look at outside candidates. Those candidates would have to have similar work experience to what is required in the contract to bid the job (7 years minimum). They would have to join the Union, and would come in with ZERO Company, Local, Roster, or Classification Seniority, and under the same rulse as any new hire (no vacation first year, lowest overall seniority, etc....)

I'm not sure how many people out there who already have enough experience to get the Senior Tech position are suddenly going to want to come in and be the one who gets forced for OT (based on Seniority), last choice for Storm Assignments (based on Seniority), and last for Vacation/Holiday selection.

 

[Anathema]

......GREED is the name of the game. No one holds a gun to workers' heads and makes them join a union. Every worker has the right to go look for work elsewhere. And, every business has the right hire anyone they want to, or to just close their doors.

No PROTECTION was the name of the game for us. It's worked out pretty well for both parties for the last 5 years. The only reason it isn't now is because people on both sides of the aisle failed to properly enforce the Contract.

 

[Sonny Clark]

......GREED is the name of the game. No one holds a gun to workers' heads and makes them join a union. Every worker has the right to go look for work elsewhere. And, every business has the right hire anyone they want to, or to just close their doors.

No PROTECTION was the name of the game for us. It's worked out pretty well for both parties for the last 5 years. The only reason it isn't now is because people on both sides of the aisle failed to properly enforce the Contract.

The "protection" is nothing more than GREED. You workers wanted more money, the union leadership wanted more money, and the business was afraid of losing money and customers.

 

[Anathema]

The "protection" is nothing more than GREED. You workers wanted more money, the union leadership wanted more money, and the business was afraid of losing money and customers.

Gee, that's interesting, since we agreed to the same salary structure that was already in place for the Departments, though finally STANDARDIZED across the company (same work, same pay), and actually agreed to a good portion of what the Company wanted from us; within the existing Union restrictions (pay for work from alternative locations, etc....). The Union got 96 more members; most of whom they almost wish they didn't have (we're much nosier about how things actually work and how the contract is written than many of our brethren). The company got to continue existing, since if even half of us had walked away, their entire company would have fallen apart.

 

[Sonny Clark]

The "protection" is nothing more than GREED. You workers wanted more money, the union leadership wanted more money, and the business was afraid of losing money and customers.

Gee, that's interesting, since we agreed to the same salary structure that was already in place for the Departments, though finally STANDARDIZED across the company (same work, same pay), and actually agreed to a good portion of what the Company wanted from us; within the existing Union restrictions (pay for work from alternative locations, etc....). The Union got 96 more members; most of whom they almost wish they didn't have (we're much nosier about how things actually work and how the contract is written than many of our brethren). The company got to continue existing, since if even half of us had walked away, their entire company would have fallen apart.

I understand. I know about unions and how they operate. I know their motives, and their power over businesses. I also know about union membership fees and monthly dues. And, I know about union strikes and union job assignments within a business.

 

[WinterBorn]

I had the good fortune to work for a few years with a power contractor. They were a union shop. Probably one of the best electrical contractors the power companies ever had (GA Power, Duke Energy ect) ever had. GA Power's rebuild in Savannah was only possible because of these guys.

I only had two run-ins with the union. Both times it went away pretty quick.

 

[Ravi]

There is nothing wrong with employees banding together to collectively bargain with their employee.

 

[Katzndogz]

Promote the best tech into the position whether he likes it or not. He can take the raise, minimal though it is, or be unemployed.

 

[Anathema]

Promote the best tech into the position whether he likes it or not. He can take the raise, minimal though it is, or be unemployed.

That's not the way the Union works, and with one of those three already trying to get out of the department you'd likely end up driving at least one more, if not all three of them out; which the Company cannot really afford to do considering how understaffed and overworked the group is at this point.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Promote the best tech into the position whether he likes it or not. He can take the raise, minimal though it is, or be unemployed.

That's not the way the Union works, and with one of those three already trying to get out of the department you'd likely end up driving at least one more, if not all three of them out; which the Company cannot really afford to do considering how understaffed and overworked the group is at this point.

Welcome to the world of unions.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Promote the best tech into the position whether he likes it or not. He can take the raise, minimal though it is, or be unemployed.

That's not the way the Union works, and with one of those three already trying to get out of the department you'd likely end up driving at least one more, if not all three of them out; which the Company cannot really afford to do considering how understaffed and overworked the group is at this point.

How Unions Work The Employee Free Choice Act and the Economy

 

[Darkwind]

Is number 3 (you have labeled as 2) an actual restriction? Read your CBA. I think you find that the language says you must post the job opening internally first, wait a specific number of days for qualified candidates to apply, and if none come forward or those who do are not qualified, you can then go outside the company.

AFer having several EXTENDED conversations last night with our Union Officers, here's what they can do and what they have to do.....

In accordance with the 2009 MOU regarding grandfathering of existing Techs to the Senior Tech position, the three Techs would have to be given the first opportunity to advance to Senior. Nobody wants the job, so that requirement is satisfied.

Post the job in-house, per normal Union posting requirements (Location, then Local, then General). Since there's only one other individiual in the Company who is qualified for the position, and he doesn't want it, that requirement qould be quailified over about a 5 week period of time.

Then, and ONLY then, could they look at outside candidates. Those candidates would have to have similar work experience to what is required in the contract to bid the job (7 years minimum). They would have to join the Union, and would come in with ZERO Company, Local, Roster, or Classification Seniority, and under the same rulse as any new hire (no vacation first year, lowest overall seniority, etc....)

I'm not sure how many people out there who already have enough experience to get the Senior Tech position are suddenly going to want to come in and be the one who gets forced for OT (based on Seniority), last choice for Storm Assignments (based on Seniority), and last for Vacation/Holiday selection.

If you meed the conditions of the CBA, then you place an ad looking for talent outside the company. It really isn't an issue about who may or may not want the job. If the company needs the position filled, and the union won't release the position to non-union workers, then you do as every other company in the world does when they need a position filled.

The only other option I see is the elimination of the position and the job description broken down and distributed to other jobs that are dependent upon the tasks getting done.

The union has no say in how a company reallocates work from a obsolete position.

 

[Dekster]

I'm especially interested in hearing from business owners, managers, and supervisory personnel on this issue, but wonder if others may have run into something similar before, themselves.....

You are the Manager of a Union Department that has four classifications (in ascending order..... Tech B, Tech A, Tech, Sr Tech). One of your two Senior Techs is retiring. You have three Techs who are all qualified to move up to the Senior Tech position, but none of them want it. This is largely due to the significant change in the type of work the Senior Tech position requires, the increased stress of the job, and the minimal increase (about $5500 a year) in pay rate. You have two Tech A's and one Tech B; none of whom can qualify to take the Senior Tech position.

How do you proceed/what do you do?

Here are the stipulations........

1. You cannot de-unionize the department
2. There are no other qualified Union candidates in the Company
2. You cannot bring in a candidate off the street due to Union rules

I'll answer any pertinent questions you may have.

You promote someone against their will. What are they going to do, quit because they got promoted? Pretty sure that won't fly when they go to try to collect unemployment.

 

[Anathema]

If you meed the conditions of the CBA, then you place an ad looking for talent outside the company. It really isn't an issue about who may or may not want the job. If the company needs the position filled, and the union won't release the position to non-union workers, then you do as every other company in the world does when they need a position filled.

Actually, that IS the system laid out under Filling of Vacancies in our Contract. There is no providion in our contract to release Union work to non-Union individuals. Not even to Supervisors or Managers in the department. Even contractor use is highly regulated.

The only other option I see is the elimination of the position and the job description broken down and distributed to other jobs that are dependent upon the tasks getting done.

They could eliminate that position, but the Senior Tech classification would still exist, as there is a second individual already in that classification. They could push the entire workload onto the other Senior Tech, but they could not push it onto the Techs. We would grieve that instantly and have already informed the Company of that.

The union has no say in how a company reallocates work from a obsolete position.

Not entirely true. If the entire classification were to be mothballed you'd be right. Since that isn't the case here, there are considerable limits on what they can do.