How Pharma and Insurance Intend to Kill the Public Option

[PubliusInfinitum]

I am always amazed by those on these boards who have been sodomized by the Big Pharma and the Managed Care businesses and just keep smiling.

Indeed... And when we KNOW that "Managed Care" which is to say the HMO was saddled upon us BY THE SAME FUCKING PEOPLE THAT ARE TRYING TO DISMANTLE THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM TODAY; USING THE SAME TIRD, LONG DISCREDITED ARGUMENTS.

It's AMAZING how those who come to bemoan "Managed CARE" drone on about a system which IS PRECISELY THE SAME DAMN THING; but VASTLY LARGER AND TO THE DEGREE THAT IT STRIPS FROM THE SYSTEM ANY VIABLE ALTERNATIVE.

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

It "works" they way the majority of americans voted. You lost. What is it about that reality you don't understand?

Using the sick and dying as a commodity is american? Fuck you and all the sick fucks that think like you.

Where did you get the idea that winning an election provides the winner with the means to 'do whatever they want?'

I mean I know you've claimed to have been a smuggler and such is indicative of one failing to grasp the civics portion of the education which was GIVEN TO YOU... but that doesn't excuse this absurd ignorance which you seem determined to cling to, which sets aside the full scope of whole "CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC" thing...

So again... what leads you to believe that the whole US Constitution can be scrapped, because you idiots won an election?

I don't believe in your overblown and rather melodramatic supposition about the "whole US Constitution being scrapped," but to answer your question within its extremes, the rolling it into a blunt and passing it around the republican majority (and don't give me any of that crap about two years for a majority dem Senate, Joe didn't count for our side, and the pubs threatened filibuster for everything) for the last eight years might do

Forget about the Constitution, then. Every time government intervenes in private enterprise, it fucks it up. It doesn't help the people it intends to help and the cost of doing it explodes.

Government has no damned business running the healthcare industry.

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

And you do not have a right to something someone else has to pay for.

 

[Harry Dresden]

if you think health care is expensive now.....wait until its free....

 

[Barb]

“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” – Thomas Jefferson

“Nations crumble from within when the citizenry asks of government those things which the citizenry might better provide for itself.” Ronald Reagan

“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.” – Ben Franklin

“…a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” – Thomas Jefferson

The facts are in this country, yes a majority of people voted for Barack Obama to be President and he now sits in the White House as a result, however that in and of itself is not a license to change the very fabric this nation was founded upon. While it's noble to wish that all people not suffer, and those that cannot take care of themselves we as a society should take care of them. The fact remains, it is NOT the Federal Govts. job to provide healthcare to it's citizens, had that been the intent of the framers of the constitution then it would be in there. There are many ways in order to accomplish this within the framework of our Govt.. Perhaps the frist one the comes to mind is a constitutional Amendment on healthcare that 2/3rds of the states must ratify. This is well within the framework of our form of Govt. or perhaps another way would be for the Govt. to actually regualte commerce as it's supposed too and bring down the cost of care and further regulate the costs of mandated liability insurance that Doctors and Hospitals are passing on to the consumer. There are many ways to accomplish this, the facts are no one wishes to explore these becsuse the current mind set is that the Govt. owes it's citizens healthcare when it clearly does not.

Thomas Jefferson

Benefits
"Those who bear equally the burthens of Government
should equally participate of its benefits."
Thomas Jefferson

Corporations
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed
corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a
trial of strength and bid
defiance to the laws of our country."
Thomas Jefferson, 1812
Source:Liberty Quotes

"The mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs,
nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately,
by the grace of God."
Thomas Jefferson
Source:Thomas Jefferson Quote with Comments

 

[Barb]

And you do not have a right to something someone else has to pay for.

I've worked since I was twelve, and have everything that I need. Always have, always will. As a taxpayer, I rather pay for a health care system that works rather than another bomb. As a voter, I get to say so. You go ahead and vote for whatever suits you. I just wish there were a way to split up the results.

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

Government can't guarantee results. It makes things worse every time it tries. Does Barack Obama need to fuck up the economy any worse than it already is and kill more jobs than already have been killed?

 

[sealybobo]

They didn't even want to give single payer a seat at the table. Today they get a seat at the table.

A Seat at the Table for Single-Payer

Now single payer is going to get an opportunity to squash all the right wing garbage can talking points on why it won't work.

 

[Navy1960]

TRICARE Works ray because it doesn't have 250 million plus people managed under it also, it works because the contractors under TRICARE are not in direct competetion with the Federal Govt. to proivde healthcare to the general public. In otherwords the Federal Govt. is only offering this as a benefit earned, not as a healthcare product abailable for public consumption. So your using Medicare, TRICARE, etc. as examples is a weak argument at best. As for as the socialism thing goes, I personally don't care what label you put on it, you can call it wizbangcare if you want, it is still unconstitutional and as i pointed out, there are many ways to make it that way or perhaps work within the framework of this form of Govt. rather than look to another form of Govt. I find it actually amsuing that people would quote other nations as being shinning examples of care, when those nations are a disaster. One of the founders of Canada's Health Care system is now advocating "free choice" . U.K's health care system is in shambles. So when people put these statistics up , they don't reflect the reality of the situation. Yes, our healthcare system needs COST reform badly, it needs it to the point where healthcare can be affordable to more people thats true. There are as I've stated above many ways to go about this, mandating an illegal form of healthcare is not one of them. In fact the only group of Americans that are constitutionally covered for healthcare are prisoners.

Socialized medicine has meant rationed care and lack of innovation. Small wonder Canadians are looking to the market.

Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

Anyone naïve enough to believe that health provision in this country has become a little more market-driven under New Labour should take a look at the NHS Confederation's warning that the health service faces the gravest funding crisis in its history.

Such shroud waving by the state health care provider is designed to scare politicians of every stripe into continuing to treat the NHS as the great sacred cow of British politics that must be fed taxpayers' billions even when it is patently obvious such largesse is not working.
Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

According to the trustees report the financial outlook for the Medicare Hospital Insurance Trust Fund that pays hospital benefits has deteriorated significantly from last year, with annual cash flow deficits beginning this year. These deficits will continue through the decade and explode in 2010 as the first baby boomers retire and being using Medicare. By the trustees estimates the trust fund will be exhausted (broke) by the year 2019, just as the greatest numbers of baby boomers start relying on Medicare for health care coverage.

Medicare In Crisis

Congress will worsen a near crisis of runaway military health care costs if it enacts a Senate-backed provision to open the new TRICARE Reserve Select program to all drilling Reserve and National Guard members, the Defense Department's top health official has warned.

In testimony before a House subcommittee, Dr. William Winkenwerder said military health costs have doubled in just the last four years, from $18 billion a year to more than $36 billion, largely because of enhancements in benefits for retirees and their families.
TRICARE Near Cost Crisis?

As I said before, this is a COST issue and needs to be addressed as such, it takes a little more courage and working within the framework of this form of Govt.

 

[Barb]

I am always amazed by those on these boards who have been sodomized by the Big Pharma and the Managed Care businesses and just keep smiling.

Indeed... And when we KNOW that "Managed Care" which is to say the HMO was saddled upon us BY THE SAME FUCKING PEOPLE THAT ARE TRYING TO DISMANTLE THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM TODAY; USING THE SAME TIRD, LONG DISCREDITED ARGUMENTS.

It's AMAZING how those who come to bemoan "Managed CARE" drone on about a system which IS PRECISELY THE SAME DAMN THING; but VASTLY LARGER AND TO THE DEGREE THAT IT STRIPS FROM THE SYSTEM ANY VIABLE ALTERNATIVE.

Actually, HMO's were introduced to Nixon by, oh crap, lemme go look, there we go, by Ehrlichman. I remembered it from researching Nixon last year, and a whole bunch of stuff was declassified. Anyway, here you go:
The start of the HMO began in Nixon's Oval Office
" February 17, 1971
5:30 p.m.
Ehrlichman: "We have now narrowed down the vice president's problem on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these Health Maintenance Organizations like Edgar Kaiser's Permanente thing."

Nixon: "Now let me ask you...you know I'm not too keen on any of these damn medical programs."

Ehrlichman: "This is a private enterprise one."

Nixon: "Well that appeals to me."

Ehrlichman: "Edgar Kaiser is running this Permanente deal for profit and the reason he can do it...I had Edgar Kaiser come in, talk to me about this, and I went into some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care. Because the less care they give them, the more money they make."

Nixon: "Fine."

Ehrlichman: "...and the incentives run the right way."

Nixon: "Not bad."

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

They didn't even want to give single payer a seat at the table. Today they get a seat at the table.

A Seat at the Table for Single-Payer

Now single payer is going to get an opportunity to squash all the right wing garbage can talking points on why it won't work.

Government making people's healthcare decisions doesn't work.

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

That blog is a week old. A new public healthcare benefit is DOA. No Republicans and increasing numers of Democrats don't support it.

 

[Barb]

TRICARE Works ray because it doesn't have 250 million plus people managed under it also, it works because the contractors under TRICARE are not in direct competetion with the Federal Govt. to proivde healthcare to the general public. In otherwords the Federal Govt. is only offering this as a benefit earned, not as a healthcare product abailable for public consumption. So your using Medicare, TRICARE, etc. as examples is a weak argument at best. As for as the socialism thing goes, I personally don't care what label you put on it, you can call it wizbangcare if you want, it is still unconstitutional and as i pointed out, there are many ways to make it that way or perhaps work within the framework of this form of Govt. rather than look to another form of Govt. I find it actually amsuing that people would quote other nations as being shinning examples of care, when those nations are a disaster. One of the founders of Canada's Health Care system is now advocating "free choice" . U.K's health care system is in shambles. So when people put these statistics up , they don't reflect the reality of the situation. Yes, our healthcare system needs COST reform badly, it needs it to the point where healthcare can be affordable to more people thats true. There are as I've stated above many ways to go about this, mandating an illegal form of healthcare is not one of them. In fact the only group of Americans that are constitutionally covered for healthcare are prisoners.

Socialized medicine has meant rationed care and lack of innovation. Small wonder Canadians are looking to the market.

Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

Anyone naïve enough to believe that health provision in this country has become a little more market-driven under New Labour should take a look at the NHS Confederation's warning that the health service faces the gravest funding crisis in its history.

Such shroud waving by the state health care provider is designed to scare politicians of every stripe into continuing to treat the NHS as the great sacred cow of British politics that must be fed taxpayers' billions even when it is patently obvious such largesse is not working.
Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

According to the trustees report the financial outlook for the Medicare Hospital Insurance Trust Fund that pays hospital benefits has deteriorated significantly from last year, with annual cash flow deficits beginning this year. These deficits will continue through the decade and explode in 2010 as the first baby boomers retire and being using Medicare. By the trustees estimates the trust fund will be exhausted (broke) by the year 2019, just as the greatest numbers of baby boomers start relying on Medicare for health care coverage.

Medicare In Crisis

Congress will worsen a near crisis of runaway military health care costs if it enacts a Senate-backed provision to open the new TRICARE Reserve Select program to all drilling Reserve and National Guard members, the Defense Department's top health official has warned.

In testimony before a House subcommittee, Dr. William Winkenwerder said military health costs have doubled in just the last four years, from $18 billion a year to more than $36 billion, largely because of enhancements in benefits for retirees and their families.
TRICARE Near Cost Crisis?

As I said before, this is a COST issue and needs to be addressed as such, it takes a little more courage and working within the framework of this form of Govt.

"TRICARE Works ray because it doesn't have 250 million plus people managed under it also, it works because the contractors under TRICARE are not in direct competetion with the Federal Govt. to proivde healthcare to the general public. In otherwords the Federal Govt. is only offering this as a benefit earned, not as a healthcare product abailable for public consumption."

Health insurance, TRICARE included, is a contractual benefit agreement. It is not the fault of the public, union, private, or government workers that the costs of fulfilling those contracted agreements became so expensive. That all belongs to the drug and insurance companies, and they are the ones looking for a "free ride," not the people cornered into paying them to second-guess their doctors and fixing loaded dice in a system that works solely to their benefit.

 

[Barb]

That blog is a week old. A new public healthcare benefit is DOA. No Republicans and increasing numers of Democrats don't support it.

Not so fast. I called my representatives today. They've heard from a lot of others. I suspect the phone lines are pretty busy on this.

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

Why would people give up what they have and believe the promises of a President who has accomplished nothing?

 

[Barb]

Why would people give up what they have and believe the promises of a President who has accomplished nothing?

Oh hell. Sez you, and you're dismissed.

 

[Navy1960]

Corporations
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed
corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a
trial of strength and bid
defiance to the laws of our country."
Thomas Jefferson, 1812
Source:Liberty Quotes

Barb,

I rather liked that quote actually and sort of sums of what I have been saying that under the commerce clause of the constitution this issue of costs can be solved rather easily with a congress that is willing to work within it's framework and provide a path through regulation and de-regulation a method to reduce overall costs and stimulate competetion. Jefferson however, like just about all the founding fathers was very much in favor of limited Govt. and his views on healthcare it can be said were very much influenced by Dr. Benjamin Rush.

"[The people] are in truth the only legitimate proprietors of the soil and government." --Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1813. ME 19:197

"I consider the foundation of the [Federal] Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people." [10th Amendment] To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specifically drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on National Bank, 1791. ME 3:146

No matter though, I'm sure though some tax provision that this healthcare bill will be passed and the sides that are advocating this will be well satisfied till they see for themselves its result.

 

[Harry Dresden]

They didn't even want to give single payer a seat at the table. Today they get a seat at the table.

A Seat at the Table for Single-Payer

Now single payer is going to get an opportunity to squash all the right wing garbage can talking points on why it won't work.

Bobo i hate to squash your love fest here...but there many left wingers who are against this shit also.....because they realize,unlike you,that if Uncle Sam gets to have a say in any of this,especially on how who and why.....one problem will just become a bigger problem.....like my doc. told me....many people think the doctors and nurses are automatically for this....they do want it,BUT,they wanna know who will be calling the shots...

 

[auditor0007]

if you think health care is expensive now.....wait until its free....

First of all, healthcare isn't free no matter who is running it. From my viewpoint, my personal cost for healthcare right now is over $15,000 per year, if I could afford it that is. That doesn't include my kids; that's just for me. If I could afford it, by the time I reach 55, in ten years, my personal cost will increase to nearly $25,000 per year.

So are you telling me that if the government becomes involved in healthcare, my cost is going to be more than that?

 

[auditor0007]

Why would people give up what they have and believe the promises of a President who has accomplished nothing?

Why would I give up what? $15,000 per year that I can't afford? You know, honestly, if the greedy insurance companies wouldn't have fucked me, I would be in full support of the current system. But the current system is not set up for the best interest of the people. It's set up for the insurance companies to make as much profit as possible with no regard to the health or well being of those it is supposed to protect.