CDZ How partisan politics narrows your thinking

[Mac1958]

But the reality is, 45% always votes Republican and 48% always votes Democrat and at very worst, it's 7% of the electorate that is in flux.

That'll happen every time when the store only sells Miller or Bud.. That's NOT how America THINKS or what political ideas they are wedded to..

Part of prob with your theory is that they might PROMISE to "give you what you want".. But they hardly ever succeed.. It's either botched in implementation or fatally flawed by "bipartisan compromise"...

Mac is correct.. There is a "truth in labeling" problem with politics today.. When you vote Dem -- are you getting the same kind of Liberal that your parents voted for? Or a full blown radical socialist leftist? When you choose Rep -- is it John McCain (another statist liberal) OR a flaming Tea Partier?

And when the store is out of your preference --- where do you go?

It's time to offer more choices. Because of THESE reasons that Mac started out with. And because TWO is not a stable number. It INHERENTLY causes polarization.. And because the parties have BECOME the tyranny.. Only 4 people run the Congress and control the dialogue. They've remade the rules and proceedures in their own images.

Zealots think that most people are like they are. They have virtually zero self-awareness.

The fact is, they represent a minority of the populace, but cause, by far, most of the problems and division.

A majority of the people have at least some capacity and willingness to think for themselves.
.

I really don't anticipate this getting better for the party animals in the near future given the scandals of the day and the inability to manage and function in Washington...

Oh, I don't either. The parties are controlled by their wings and the rest of us can only ask them to get over themselves.

I have no idea what fixes this.
.

Look at how much attention and coverage that 3 "short-timers" got this past year. Flake, Corker and McCain. No longer chained and muzzled by the party bosses. Just 4 or 8 independent "outsiders" from this polarization would create a lot of new opportunity for getting things under control... Every time a close vote comes up -- the coverage would be all about "who's gonna get the Indies"? Doesn't take an invasion of power to make the change.

Get people to STOP rewarding the dysfunction and trivial conflict by voting for brand name "winners"...

The problem - well, ONE of the problems - is that anyone who steps out of line knows they'll be "primaried" for the effort. We're going to see this from the other party, too. Since their top two priorities are fundraising and re-election, it's best for them to bow to the tribe.
.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

But the reality is, 45% always votes Republican and 48% always votes Democrat and at very worst, it's 7% of the electorate that is in flux.

That'll happen every time when the store only sells Miller or Bud.. That's NOT how America THINKS or what political ideas they are wedded to..

Part of prob with your theory is that they might PROMISE to "give you what you want".. But they hardly ever succeed.. It's either botched in implementation or fatally flawed by "bipartisan compromise"...

Mac is correct.. There is a "truth in labeling" problem with politics today.. When you vote Dem -- are you getting the same kind of Liberal that your parents voted for? Or a full blown radical socialist leftist? When you choose Rep -- is it John McCain (another statist liberal) OR a flaming Tea Partier?

And when the store is out of your preference --- where do you go?

It's time to offer more choices. Because of THESE reasons that Mac started out with. And because TWO is not a stable number. It INHERENTLY causes polarization.. And because the parties have BECOME the tyranny.. Only 4 people run the Congress and control the dialogue. They've remade the rules and proceedures in their own images.

Zealots think that most people are like they are. They have virtually zero self-awareness.

The fact is, they represent a minority of the populace, but cause, by far, most of the problems and division.

A majority of the people have at least some capacity and willingness to think for themselves.
.

I really don't anticipate this getting better for the party animals in the near future given the scandals of the day and the inability to manage and function in Washington...

Oh, I don't either. The parties are controlled by their wings and the rest of us can only ask them to get over themselves.

I have no idea what fixes this.
.

You shouldn't despair, Mac.

Sure, the may be a few rough years when the Oprah/ The Rock ticket is in office, but once the Ted Nugent/ Scott Baio administration takes over, it will all work out in the end.



...and I shouldn't even have to remind you of all the good things in store once the Olsen twins turn 35.

 

[Mac1958]

...and I shouldn't even have to remind you of all the good things in store once the Olsen twins turn 35.

HOW COOL WOULD THAT BE

They could just take turns! They could work 24 hours a day!


.

 

[flacaltenn]

But the reality is, 45% always votes Republican and 48% always votes Democrat and at very worst, it's 7% of the electorate that is in flux.

That'll happen every time when the store only sells Miller or Bud.. That's NOT how America THINKS or what political ideas they are wedded to..

Part of prob with your theory is that they might PROMISE to "give you what you want".. But they hardly ever succeed.. It's either botched in implementation or fatally flawed by "bipartisan compromise"...

Mac is correct.. There is a "truth in labeling" problem with politics today.. When you vote Dem -- are you getting the same kind of Liberal that your parents voted for? Or a full blown radical socialist leftist? When you choose Rep -- is it John McCain (another statist liberal) OR a flaming Tea Partier?

And when the store is out of your preference --- where do you go?

It's time to offer more choices. Because of THESE reasons that Mac started out with. And because TWO is not a stable number. It INHERENTLY causes polarization.. And because the parties have BECOME the tyranny.. Only 4 people run the Congress and control the dialogue. They've remade the rules and proceedures in their own images.

Zealots think that most people are like they are. They have virtually zero self-awareness.

The fact is, they represent a minority of the populace, but cause, by far, most of the problems and division.

A majority of the people have at least some capacity and willingness to think for themselves.
.

I really don't anticipate this getting better for the party animals in the near future given the scandals of the day and the inability to manage and function in Washington...

Oh, I don't either. The parties are controlled by their wings and the rest of us can only ask them to get over themselves.

I have no idea what fixes this.
.

You shouldn't despair, Mac.

Sure, the may be a few rough years when the Oprah/ The Rock ticket is in office, but once the Ted Nugent/ Scott Baio administration takes over, it will all work out in the end.



...and I shouldn't even have to remind you of all the good things in store once the Olsen twins turn 35.

You left out the Chelsea -- Trump Jr grudge match in 2032....

I called a local radio host last Sept who was ranting about name recognition being ESSENTIAL to "win"...

I told him that's how we ended with a Clinton/Trump ticket choice. He started to "get it"...

 

[flacaltenn]

Oprah would be like "YOU get a check" and YOU get a check and ALL YOU ALL --- get a check... How do you beat that for JoeB''s --- giving people what they want??

 

[JoeB131]

That'll happen every time when the store only sells Miller or Bud.. That's NOT how America THINKS or what political ideas they are wedded to..

Except we've had the same two political parties since 1856. Third parties either languish in the basement, or the flare up bright for one or two elections like the Reform or Progressive parties. Part of the problem is that Electoral College and Congress lock us into the current system. A member of a major party doesn't need to get 50% to win, a third party would.

Part of prob with your theory is that they might PROMISE to "give you what you want".. But they hardly ever succeed.. It's either botched in implementation or fatally flawed by "bipartisan compromise"...

I agree, but the other problem is that we are never sure about "what we want". Obama gave us what we wanted with ObamaCare, but we hated it... until Trump threatened to take it away, and now we love it. The problem isn't with the parties, it's kind of with ourselves.

Mac is correct.. There is a "truth in labeling" problem with politics today.. When you vote Dem -- are you getting the same kind of Liberal that your parents voted for? Or a full blown radical socialist leftist? When you choose Rep -- is it John McCain (another statist liberal) OR a flaming Tea Partier?

But you miss the other half of the equation- We don't face the kinds of problems that our parents faced, so we shouldn't expect a Nixon vs. Kennedy choice. JFK won running to the right of Ike and Nixon on defense when the commies were beating us into space. After the folly of Vietnam and the War on An Emotional State, no Democrats is going to run on that kind of warmongering anymore.

 

[flacaltenn]

no Democrats is going to run on that kind of warmongering anymore.

No.. Of course not. They just demonize anything Russian and SWOON over North Korean dictatorships.. Foreign policy ain't much different or better under EITHER party...

No big differences in a LOT of areas.. Where there needs to be. Like in fiscal sanity and responsible oversight of the bloated beast they keep over-feeding..

 

[impuretrash]

no Democrats is going to run on that kind of warmongering anymore.

No.. Of course not. They just demonize anything Russian and SWOON over North Korean dictatorships.. Foreign policy ain't much different or better under EITHER party...

No big differences in a LOT of areas.. Where there needs to be. Like in fiscal sanity and responsible oversight of the bloated beast they keep over-feeding..

Trump has turned the republicans into the anti-SJW party, after decades of ceding to the left on social issues like gay marriage and whether or not it's ok to be white. That's a pretty big difference.

 

[flacaltenn]

no Democrats is going to run on that kind of warmongering anymore.

No.. Of course not. They just demonize anything Russian and SWOON over North Korean dictatorships.. Foreign policy ain't much different or better under EITHER party...

No big differences in a LOT of areas.. Where there needs to be. Like in fiscal sanity and responsible oversight of the bloated beast they keep over-feeding..

Trump has turned the republicans into the anti-SJW party, after decades of ceding to the left on social issues like gay marriage and whether or not it's ok to be white. That's a pretty big difference.

Well --- he's a Pirate. Not a Repub or a Conservative. Essentially a 3rd party candidate.

But check your premises. Rolling back anything on Gay issues is not in the cards. Expect more pandering to "the family" which LOOKS like SJW priorities -- like paid leave..

This is hard to "brand". It's NOT liberal/conservative/libertarian/socialist. In the theme of this thread -- MAYBE that's OK.. If it doesn't have "a name and logo". But I'd prefer folks who have actually thought through policies and issues that are solved with SOME consistent principles behind them..

 

[impuretrash]

no Democrats is going to run on that kind of warmongering anymore.

No.. Of course not. They just demonize anything Russian and SWOON over North Korean dictatorships.. Foreign policy ain't much different or better under EITHER party...

No big differences in a LOT of areas.. Where there needs to be. Like in fiscal sanity and responsible oversight of the bloated beast they keep over-feeding..

Trump has turned the republicans into the anti-SJW party, after decades of ceding to the left on social issues like gay marriage and whether or not it's ok to be white. That's a pretty big difference.

Well --- he's a Pirate. Not a Repub or a Conservative. Essentially a 3rd party candidate.

But check your premises. Rolling back anything on Gay issues is not in the cards. Expect more pandering to "the family" which LOOKS like SJW priorities -- like paid leave..

This is hard to "brand". It's NOT liberal/conservative/libertarian/socialist. In the theme of this thread -- MAYBE that's OK.. If it doesn't have "a name and logo". But I'd prefer folks who have actually thought through policies and issues that are solved with SOME consistent principles behind them..

If I had to brand it, I'd call it normal vs weird. The dems have fully embraced nihilism and loony causes like transgender lessons in kindergarten and putting restrictions on free speech. All other real political issues sort of takes a back seat when it comes to confronting this existential threat. I think most republican voters end up championing causes that they don't understand or particularly care about, simply because the weirdos on the other side are against it.

It's very telling that Donald freakin' Trump of all people are representing the side of the normals.

 

[Indeependent]

To steal from a post of mine on another thread: I maintain, and I'm more sure of this than ever, that it is an affliction that literally distorts perceptions and thought processes. I came to the conclusion that it is an affliction because it clearly infects people who are otherwise perfectly intelligent.

And if I'm right, then the afflicted are actually being perfectly honest and sincere in what they say. Those are the thoughts that are going through their minds, it's not an act. Like an old woman at a revival meeting or a crazed teenager on the streets of Damascus, they're not thinking rationally, but they are perfectly sincere. Hence the passion. Makes it tougher.

Interesting piece here: How Partisan Politics Narrows Your Thinking

Loyalty to a political party often trumps reason and logic in numerous ways:

• We recognize that stereotypes aren’t accurate within our own group, but we’re still inclined to generalize about our adversaries.
• To remain loyal to our party we overly simplify issues instead of giving ample consideration to points from both sides.
• We justify and rationalize when it’s our guy.
• We’re forced to lump together several unrelated issues.
• We may feel politically homeless, unable to embrace either party’s platform.
• We fail to recognize that the labels don’t really fit the political parties.
• We simply rely on our party’s reputation rather than impartially evaluating its actions.

A Pew Report found that combined, “consistent liberals” and “consistent conservatives” make up only 20% of Americans. Yet, unsurprisingly, these are the people most likely to run for office and initiate political discussion. This exaggerates political polarization and limits opportunities for open-minded dialogue between the rest of us. We’ve allowed the fervent minority to drive us into one of two ideological camps, or to become disenchanted and disengaged from politics altogether.

We may never be able to convince solidly loyal party members to have an open mind. But the other 80% of us need to think for ourselves.
.

It is the true meaning of identity politics. Only one grade below nationalism, which also trumps reason and logic.

Nationalism vs Corporatism?
Neither extreme is good and currently most Americans are getting their asses kicked by Corporatism.

 

[Tehon]

To steal from a post of mine on another thread: I maintain, and I'm more sure of this than ever, that it is an affliction that literally distorts perceptions and thought processes. I came to the conclusion that it is an affliction because it clearly infects people who are otherwise perfectly intelligent.

And if I'm right, then the afflicted are actually being perfectly honest and sincere in what they say. Those are the thoughts that are going through their minds, it's not an act. Like an old woman at a revival meeting or a crazed teenager on the streets of Damascus, they're not thinking rationally, but they are perfectly sincere. Hence the passion. Makes it tougher.

Interesting piece here: How Partisan Politics Narrows Your Thinking

Loyalty to a political party often trumps reason and logic in numerous ways:

• We recognize that stereotypes aren’t accurate within our own group, but we’re still inclined to generalize about our adversaries.
• To remain loyal to our party we overly simplify issues instead of giving ample consideration to points from both sides.
• We justify and rationalize when it’s our guy.
• We’re forced to lump together several unrelated issues.
• We may feel politically homeless, unable to embrace either party’s platform.
• We fail to recognize that the labels don’t really fit the political parties.
• We simply rely on our party’s reputation rather than impartially evaluating its actions.

A Pew Report found that combined, “consistent liberals” and “consistent conservatives” make up only 20% of Americans. Yet, unsurprisingly, these are the people most likely to run for office and initiate political discussion. This exaggerates political polarization and limits opportunities for open-minded dialogue between the rest of us. We’ve allowed the fervent minority to drive us into one of two ideological camps, or to become disenchanted and disengaged from politics altogether.

We may never be able to convince solidly loyal party members to have an open mind. But the other 80% of us need to think for ourselves.
.

It is the true meaning of identity politics. Only one grade below nationalism, which also trumps reason and logic.

Nationalism vs Corporatism?
Neither extreme is good and currently most Americans are getting their asses kicked by Corporatism.

Yeah but they were begging for it.

 

[Indeependent]

To steal from a post of mine on another thread: I maintain, and I'm more sure of this than ever, that it is an affliction that literally distorts perceptions and thought processes. I came to the conclusion that it is an affliction because it clearly infects people who are otherwise perfectly intelligent.

And if I'm right, then the afflicted are actually being perfectly honest and sincere in what they say. Those are the thoughts that are going through their minds, it's not an act. Like an old woman at a revival meeting or a crazed teenager on the streets of Damascus, they're not thinking rationally, but they are perfectly sincere. Hence the passion. Makes it tougher.

Interesting piece here: How Partisan Politics Narrows Your Thinking

Loyalty to a political party often trumps reason and logic in numerous ways:

• We recognize that stereotypes aren’t accurate within our own group, but we’re still inclined to generalize about our adversaries.
• To remain loyal to our party we overly simplify issues instead of giving ample consideration to points from both sides.
• We justify and rationalize when it’s our guy.
• We’re forced to lump together several unrelated issues.
• We may feel politically homeless, unable to embrace either party’s platform.
• We fail to recognize that the labels don’t really fit the political parties.
• We simply rely on our party’s reputation rather than impartially evaluating its actions.

A Pew Report found that combined, “consistent liberals” and “consistent conservatives” make up only 20% of Americans. Yet, unsurprisingly, these are the people most likely to run for office and initiate political discussion. This exaggerates political polarization and limits opportunities for open-minded dialogue between the rest of us. We’ve allowed the fervent minority to drive us into one of two ideological camps, or to become disenchanted and disengaged from politics altogether.

We may never be able to convince solidly loyal party members to have an open mind. But the other 80% of us need to think for ourselves.
.

It is the true meaning of identity politics. Only one grade below nationalism, which also trumps reason and logic.

Nationalism vs Corporatism?
Neither extreme is good and currently most Americans are getting their asses kicked by Corporatism.

Yeah but they were begging for it.

No one on earth is immune to easy credit.

 

[JoeB131]

No.. Of course not. They just demonize anything Russian and SWOON over North Korean dictatorships.. Foreign policy ain't much different or better under EITHER party...

No big differences in a LOT of areas.. Where there needs to be. Like in fiscal sanity and responsible oversight of the bloated beast they keep over-feeding..

Wait, guy, you are kind of trying to have it both ways here.

You are agreeing with Mac that the two parties are "too extreme" and then saying that there's no difference between them.

of course, nobody is "swooning' over the NK dictatorship. and if Russia is being Demonized, it's because of what they actually did.

Here's the problem with "Fiscal Sanity". We don't want fiscal sanity. Fiscal sanity would be to either slash spending on programs drastically, or to make people pay through the nose with taxes. Instead we just watched Congress, after 8 years of whining about Obama's spending, slash taxes and increase spending.

 

[JoeB131]

What happened in 2004-2008? Roughly the Dem party fractures into progressive/liberal and the Tea Party started to do the same in the Repub camp.. In 2016 --- Trump PIRATED the Repub party and the DNC was bought by the candidate. It's a sign of the rot and internal division.. And folks are FLEEING in large numbers.

Again, really?

Because the total of all the third party crazies was 6% of the electorate, and they won't do that well in 2020.

Trump didn't "Pirate" the Republican Party. He just sold the same racist nonsense they've been feeding their uneducated white base since 1968. The difference is while the other GOP candidates used code words, Trump just went right out there and screamed about the Mexicans and the Muslims.

The problem with the Democrats was that they really didn't have a better candidate than Hillary, as awful as she was. But if you are going to the Mac Argument that the parties are just run by partisan meanyheads, the fact is, Hillary was the kind of moderate third way politician who never has a bowel movement without checking a poll Mac pines for.

The reason why no one was enthusastic about Hillary was that no one believed she was sincere. Heck, I'd have probably voted against her if the GOP had run anyone other than Trump.

 

[Circe]

I dont mind people following some ideology as long as they dont 1) use it to over-ride REason and Common Sense, and 2) do not use it to dehumanize other people categorically and not based on the individual and his behavior..

Billions do just that, however. Are you saying that you mind them doing that? What form does your minding that take?

 

[Circe]

I wound up yelling at him for being an ideological hack and turned off the radio. The C&W stations were playing hip hop for some reason.

I think it's black history month, maybe that's why ---- sounds like a bad commute.

 

[Circe]

......people are choosing not to expose themselves to "news" they don't like, and there are plenty of resources ready to help them do that.

Alternate realities. LITERAL alternate realities. For me to say that's dangerous would be a gross understatement.

Sure, literal alternate realities. I figured out years ago that we all live in our own reality bubble. That's just how it is, it's not a problem to fix.

Since 2016 of course people are choosing not to expose themselves to the failure cascade that American "news" has become. It's usually grossly offensive, it's certainly propagandistic and also predatory in its determination to tie up everyone's attention forever. I make every effort to detach from what is pushed on us as "news" these days.

And I'm wildly in favor of partisan everything. Just decide what side you are on and stay loyal to that side. The constant search for "truth" makes for broken families and bad Thanksgiving dinners. People who think arguing for what they suppose is "true" and "right" is much more important that the people they argue with may end up getting sued --- at least, I know one woman like that. One of these big-bosomed furious churchwomen who takes a far left position on everything and bitterly denounces everyone she talks with for not being sufficiently enthusiastic about deviants of all kinds. Of course, she would never live anywhere but a gated community herself.

 

[Circe]

If I had to brand it, I'd call it normal vs weird. The dems have fully embraced nihilism and loony causes like transgender lessons in kindergarten and putting restrictions on free speech. All other real political issues sort of takes a back seat when it comes to confronting this existential threat. I think most republican voters end up championing causes that they don't understand or particularly care about, simply because the weirdos on the other side are against it.

Nice. That's certainly true of me ---- if I learn that the leftwing Social Justice Warriors are in favor of forcing everyone to believe that men can magically turn into women, that simplifies the issue quite a lot for me: no further plodding thru the malign media needed, I'm against it.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

no Democrats is going to run on that kind of warmongering anymore.

No.. Of course not. They just demonize anything Russian and SWOON over North Korean dictatorships.. Foreign policy ain't much different or better under EITHER party...

No big differences in a LOT of areas.. Where there needs to be. Like in fiscal sanity and responsible oversight of the bloated beast they keep over-feeding..

Trump has turned the republicans into the anti-SJW party, after decades of ceding to the left on social issues like gay marriage and whether or not it's ok to be white. That's a pretty big difference.

Well --- he's a Pirate. Not a Repub or a Conservative. Essentially a 3rd party candidate.

But check your premises. Rolling back anything on Gay issues is not in the cards. Expect more pandering to "the family" which LOOKS like SJW priorities -- like paid leave..

This is hard to "brand". It's NOT liberal/conservative/libertarian/socialist. In the theme of this thread -- MAYBE that's OK.. If it doesn't have "a name and logo". But I'd prefer folks who have actually thought through policies and issues that are solved with SOME consistent principles behind them..

If I had to brand it, I'd call it normal vs weird. The dems have fully embraced nihilism and loony causes like transgender lessons in kindergarten and putting restrictions on free speech. All other real political issues sort of takes a back seat when it comes to confronting this existential threat. I think most republican voters end up championing causes that they don't understand or particularly care about, simply because the weirdos on the other side are against it.

It's very telling that Donald freakin' Trump of all people are representing the side of the normals.

As far as I'm concerned, there has been a paradigm shift when it comes to the left in that it has become so unhinged from its once liberal moorings that it now represents its antithesis. The authoritarianism, the lack of respect for free speech, the knee jerk defense of Islam, the support for racism under the guise of fighting racism -- none of it has anything to do with actual liberalism.

I tend to see the situation in terms of both ends against the middle. The leftists have become just as fundamentalist as the most fervent bible thumper who claims dinosaur bones were placed on Earth by Satan.