CDZ How partisan politics narrows your thinking

[flacaltenn]

No.. Of course not. They just demonize anything Russian and SWOON over North Korean dictatorships.. Foreign policy ain't much different or better under EITHER party...

No big differences in a LOT of areas.. Where there needs to be. Like in fiscal sanity and responsible oversight of the bloated beast they keep over-feeding..

Wait, guy, you are kind of trying to have it both ways here.

You are agreeing with Mac that the two parties are "too extreme" and then saying that there's no difference between them.

of course, nobody is "swooning' over the NK dictatorship. and if Russia is being Demonized, it's because of what they actually did.

Here's the problem with "Fiscal Sanity". We don't want fiscal sanity. Fiscal sanity would be to either slash spending on programs drastically, or to make people pay through the nose with taxes. Instead we just watched Congress, after 8 years of whining about Obama's spending, slash taxes and increase spending.

There is nothing unique about mediocrity, complacency and corruption.. They stand for nothing, they never learn economics or foreign affairs from history and they basically function on the basis of winning elections. All that is PATENTLY true.. So I CAN have it both ways.

Fiscal sanity is what keeps banks from default and allows you as a nation to BE over your head in debt.. You fail to show responsibility, and SURPRISE --- your ability to SELL debt disappears. Or your inflation causes default when just the INTEREST on the debt becomes the majority of your spending. It's important.

And you don't have to go full austerity. You just need to focus on the things the Fed NEEDS to do and can do well. Hint --- that list is a LOT shorter than what we're doing..

 

[flacaltenn]

no Democrats is going to run on that kind of warmongering anymore.

No.. Of course not. They just demonize anything Russian and SWOON over North Korean dictatorships.. Foreign policy ain't much different or better under EITHER party...

No big differences in a LOT of areas.. Where there needs to be. Like in fiscal sanity and responsible oversight of the bloated beast they keep over-feeding..

Trump has turned the republicans into the anti-SJW party, after decades of ceding to the left on social issues like gay marriage and whether or not it's ok to be white. That's a pretty big difference.

Well --- he's a Pirate. Not a Repub or a Conservative. Essentially a 3rd party candidate.

But check your premises. Rolling back anything on Gay issues is not in the cards. Expect more pandering to "the family" which LOOKS like SJW priorities -- like paid leave..

This is hard to "brand". It's NOT liberal/conservative/libertarian/socialist. In the theme of this thread -- MAYBE that's OK.. If it doesn't have "a name and logo". But I'd prefer folks who have actually thought through policies and issues that are solved with SOME consistent principles behind them..

If I had to brand it, I'd call it normal vs weird. The dems have fully embraced nihilism and loony causes like transgender lessons in kindergarten and putting restrictions on free speech. All other real political issues sort of takes a back seat when it comes to confronting this existential threat. I think most republican voters end up championing causes that they don't understand or particularly care about, simply because the weirdos on the other side are against it.

It's very telling that Donald freakin' Trump of all people are representing the side of the normals.

As far as I'm concerned, there has been a paradigm shift when it comes to the left in that it has become so unhinged from its once liberal moorings that it now represents its antithesis. The authoritarianism, the lack of respect for free speech, the knee jerk defense of Islam, the support for racism under the guise of fighting racism -- none of it has anything to do with actual liberalism.

I tend to see the situation in terms of both ends against the middle. The leftists have become just as fundamentalist as the most fervent bible thumper who claims dinosaur bones were placed on Earth by Satan.

It DOES free up the "liberal" label tho. Which is a GOOD thing. Because classic liberals are pretty cool and correct about a basic mistrust of central power. The LParty is bunch of Classic Liberals with fiscal responsibility.. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[flacaltenn]

of course, nobody is "swooning' over the NK dictatorship.

Beg to differ dude. Two days of getting nauseous watching CNN/MSNBC paw over that Minister of Death from the NK.. She WON over everybody and outshone Pence with her "charm and smile".. GAWD -- the sickness filled the airwaves.. NYTimes hasn't fawned over a dictatorship like that since they fell in love in Hitler in 1930s..

Or was Che Guevara/Castro in the 50s.. ????

 

[flacaltenn]

Because the total of all the third party crazies was 6% of the electorate, and they won't do that well in 2020.

6% was more than the Pop Vote margin that Clinton sychos brag about. She LOST 2 maybe 3 states BECAUSE of Jill Stein and/or independent votes.

And the polling on Johnson/Weld had them over 10% by themselves in 8 or 10 states before the Dem/Rep conventions.

That's a good year. Presidency is far shot. Winning Congress seats in elections where the 2 brand name parties leave 10% of the open UNCONTESTED --- is realistic. They are arrogant enough to abandon and disenfranchise their own voters by NOT running a candidate. Good reason to VOTE 3rd party or Indie isn't it?

And if you have even 2% 3rd party or Indie in Congress -- it would make a HUGE diff in honest discussion and process..

 

[Circe]

Two days of getting nauseous watching CNN/MSNBC paw over that Minister of Death from the NK.. She WON over everybody and outshone Pence with her "charm and smile".. GAWD -- the sickness filled the airwaves.. NYTimes hasn't fawned over a dictatorship like that since they fell in love in Hitler in 1930s..

Or was Che Guevara/Castro in the 50s.. ????

Huh. That did happen.......interesting point, I wonder if NoKo was aware of that history of leftists loving dictators when they started what is being called their "charm offensive"? And Stalin was also a love affair with leftwing intellectuals. So that's three sets of left-loved dictators, at least. The NoKos may well hope that the left will take their side in America. They certainly think they can win: that seems clear from their happiness and joy generally as seen on TV. I think they may be right.

 

[flacaltenn]

Two days of getting nauseous watching CNN/MSNBC paw over that Minister of Death from the NK.. She WON over everybody and outshone Pence with her "charm and smile".. GAWD -- the sickness filled the airwaves.. NYTimes hasn't fawned over a dictatorship like that since they fell in love in Hitler in 1930s..

Or was Che Guevara/Castro in the 50s.. ????

Huh. That did happen.......interesting point, I wonder if NoKo was aware of that history of leftists loving dictators when they started what is being called their "charm offensive"? And Stalin was also a love affair with leftwing intellectuals. So that's three sets of left-loved dictators, at least. The NoKos may well hope that the left will take their side in America. They certainly think can win: that seems clear from their happiness and joy generally.

Pretty sharp move if THEY actually figured out how easy it would be to use the intense media hatred of Trump against us... Too easy to get media support under these conditions. All ya got to do is get Baptized as cuter, smarter, better than Trump/Pence. That's a low bar apparently..

 

[JimBowie1958]

I dont mind people following some ideology as long as they dont 1) use it to over-ride REason and Common Sense, and 2) do not use it to dehumanize other people categorically and not based on the individual and his behavior..

Billions do just that, however. Are you saying that you mind them doing that? What form does your minding that take?

When people who should know better subordinate practical approaches that will yield results in order to pursue their ideology and fellow ideologues, I mind that.

 

[JimBowie1958]

No one on earth is immune to easy credit.

I never get no credit, so it aint easy at all.

 

[JoeB131]

6% was more than the Pop Vote margin that Clinton sychos brag about. She LOST 2 maybe 3 states BECAUSE of Jill Stein and/or independent votes.

And the polling on Johnson/Weld had them over 10% by themselves in 8 or 10 states before the Dem/Rep conventions.

That's a good year. Presidency is far shot. Winning Congress seats in elections where the 2 brand name parties leave 10% of the open UNCONTESTED --- is realistic. They are arrogant enough to abandon and disenfranchise their own voters by NOT running a candidate. Good reason to VOTE 3rd party or Indie isn't it?

And if you have even 2% 3rd party or Indie in Congress -- it would make a HUGE diff in honest discussion and process..

Not really.

The only reason why Johnson and Stein did as well as they did was because the media told us that "Hillary had this in the bag" but she was also "Just as bad as Trump". That was an invitation to people to show how "special" they were by voting for these people who had no chance of winning and couldn't have run the country if they did.

Now, there's a pretty easy solution to this problem. Have a system where you have a first round of voting, and if no one gets 50%, then you have second round with only the top two.

The French do this. Major cities like Chicago do this. It probably would allow third parties to gain strength and maybe develop into something serious.

The thing is, the real problem is that a lot of people can't name their Congressman or even their Senators.

I did a thought experiment at my last job, to see how many people could name IL's two senators. No one could. about half could name one. In an election year.

The problem isn't that we don't have enough third party guys, it's that we are barely paying attention to the guys who have the jobs now.

 

[JoeB131]

Beg to differ dude. Two days of getting nauseous watching CNN/MSNBC paw over that Minister of Death from the NK.. She WON over everybody and outshone Pence with her "charm and smile".. GAWD -- the sickness filled the airwaves.. NYTimes hasn't fawned over a dictatorship like that since they fell in love in Hitler in 1930s..

Or was Che Guevara/Castro in the 50s.. ????

Well, given what a douchebag Pence was being, "Hey, let's bring the Dad of the dumb kid who snuck into NK and got himself killed, but first let's pontificate to the gay athletes!"

Wasn't hard to outshine him.

 

[jillian]

But the reality is, 45% always votes Republican and 48% always votes Democrat and at very worst, it's 7% of the electorate that is in flux.

That'll happen every time when the store only sells Miller or Bud.. That's NOT how America THINKS or what political ideas they are wedded to..

Part of prob with your theory is that they might PROMISE to "give you what you want".. But they hardly ever succeed.. It's either botched in implementation or fatally flawed by "bipartisan compromise"...

Mac is correct.. There is a "truth in labeling" problem with politics today.. When you vote Dem -- are you getting the same kind of Liberal that your parents voted for? Or a full blown radical socialist leftist? When you choose Rep -- is it John McCain (another statist liberal) OR a flaming Tea Partier?

And when the store is out of your preference --- where do you go?

It's time to offer more choices. Because of THESE reasons that Mac started out with. And because TWO is not a stable number. It INHERENTLY causes polarization.. And because the parties have BECOME the tyranny.. Only 4 people run the Congress and control the dialogue. They've remade the rules and proceedures in their own images.

Zealots think that most people are like they are. They have virtually zero self-awareness.

The fact is, they represent a minority of the populace, but cause, by far, most of the problems and division.

A majority of the people have at least some capacity and willingness to think for themselves.
.

I really don't anticipate this getting better for the party animals in the near future given the scandals of the day and the inability to manage and function in Washington...

Oh, I don't either. The parties are controlled by their wings and the rest of us can only ask them to get over themselves.

I have no idea what fixes this.
.

Look at how much attention and coverage that 3 "short-timers" got this past year. Flake, Corker and McCain. No longer chained and muzzled by the party bosses. Just 4 or 8 independent "outsiders" from this polarization would create a lot of new opportunity for getting things under control... Every time a close vote comes up -- the coverage would be all about "who's gonna get the Indies"? Doesn't take an invasion of power to make the change.

Get people to STOP rewarding the dysfunction and trivial conflict by voting for brand name "winners"...

they weren't "unchained" by the party. they were no longer afraid of Donald's "base".

 

[Indeependent]

No one on earth is immune to easy credit.

I never get no credit, so it aint easy at all.

You're married!

 

[flacaltenn]

That'll happen every time when the store only sells Miller or Bud.. That's NOT how America THINKS or what political ideas they are wedded to..

Part of prob with your theory is that they might PROMISE to "give you what you want".. But they hardly ever succeed.. It's either botched in implementation or fatally flawed by "bipartisan compromise"...

Mac is correct.. There is a "truth in labeling" problem with politics today.. When you vote Dem -- are you getting the same kind of Liberal that your parents voted for? Or a full blown radical socialist leftist? When you choose Rep -- is it John McCain (another statist liberal) OR a flaming Tea Partier?

And when the store is out of your preference --- where do you go?

It's time to offer more choices. Because of THESE reasons that Mac started out with. And because TWO is not a stable number. It INHERENTLY causes polarization.. And because the parties have BECOME the tyranny.. Only 4 people run the Congress and control the dialogue. They've remade the rules and proceedures in their own images.

Zealots think that most people are like they are. They have virtually zero self-awareness.

The fact is, they represent a minority of the populace, but cause, by far, most of the problems and division.

A majority of the people have at least some capacity and willingness to think for themselves.
.

I really don't anticipate this getting better for the party animals in the near future given the scandals of the day and the inability to manage and function in Washington...

Oh, I don't either. The parties are controlled by their wings and the rest of us can only ask them to get over themselves.

I have no idea what fixes this.
.

Look at how much attention and coverage that 3 "short-timers" got this past year. Flake, Corker and McCain. No longer chained and muzzled by the party bosses. Just 4 or 8 independent "outsiders" from this polarization would create a lot of new opportunity for getting things under control... Every time a close vote comes up -- the coverage would be all about "who's gonna get the Indies"? Doesn't take an invasion of power to make the change.

Get people to STOP rewarding the dysfunction and trivial conflict by voting for brand name "winners"...

they weren't "unchained" by the party. they were no longer afraid of Donald's "base".

These were the never-Trumpers. Full base Repubs. Problem is -- THAT base is almost to extinction anyways. And NO ONE running for the team as "the base" has much of a chance anyways. Too much disappointment in the performance of mainstream Repubs.

Also means they had no fear of being re-electable. If folks served their terms and went home --- that would also unchain them to do the right things while in office.

Question is how did DJT CREATE a whole NEW base? By running AGAINST the establishment in the party. Think THEY are scared of the "old base"? I doubt it..

 

[flacaltenn]

Beg to differ dude. Two days of getting nauseous watching CNN/MSNBC paw over that Minister of Death from the NK.. She WON over everybody and outshone Pence with her "charm and smile".. GAWD -- the sickness filled the airwaves.. NYTimes hasn't fawned over a dictatorship like that since they fell in love in Hitler in 1930s..

Or was Che Guevara/Castro in the 50s.. ????

Well, given what a douchebag Pence was being, "Hey, let's bring the Dad of the dumb kid who snuck into NK and got himself killed, but first let's pontificate to the gay athletes!"

Wasn't hard to outshine him.

NKoreans KNOW they can win over the press by playing against this Admin. Because it's OBVIOUS which of the two the establishment media hates more. Isn't it? That's pretty damn sick and perverted.. And it's killing my country. The sooner you 2 Lord of the Flies gangs kill each off --- the better....

 

[Picaro]

Two days of getting nauseous watching CNN/MSNBC paw over that Minister of Death from the NK.. She WON over everybody and outshone Pence with her "charm and smile".. GAWD -- the sickness filled the airwaves.. NYTimes hasn't fawned over a dictatorship like that since they fell in love in Hitler in 1930s..

Or was Che Guevara/Castro in the 50s.. ????

Huh. That did happen.......interesting point, I wonder if NoKo was aware of that history of leftists loving dictators when they started what is being called their "charm offensive"? And Stalin was also a love affair with leftwing intellectuals. So that's three sets of left-loved dictators, at least. The NoKos may well hope that the left will take their side in America. They certainly think they can win: that seems clear from their happiness and joy generally as seen on TV. I think they may be right.

This is why the fake 'Russian Collusion' scam by the left is so hilariously hypocritical; the entire 'progressive' left is completely devoted to left over Russian Cold War memes from the 1950's and 1960's; even the rhetoric is little changed from then.

 

[JoeB131]

NKoreans KNOW they can win over the press by playing against this Admin. Because it's OBVIOUS which of the two the establishment media hates more. Isn't it? That's pretty damn sick and perverted.. And it's killing my country. The sooner you 2 Lord of the Flies gangs kill each off --- the better....

Yeah, here's the thing.

North Korea didn't steal the election. North Korea doesn't get up there every day an insult the disabled, minorities, women, Gold Star Families and common decency.

It's just a little impoverished country that Trump wants to war-monger against even though it's really not much of a threat to anyone.

It's not North Korea's fault that the GOP pushed a Nazi Troll into the White House.

 

[Mac1958]

Incredible. Just incredible.

 

[JoeB131]

Incredible. Just incredible.

I know, man, you just can't find any end to enemies to send other people's kids off to die fighting.

 

[hazlnut]

To steal from a post of mine on another thread: I maintain, and I'm more sure of this than ever, that it is an affliction that literally distorts perceptions and thought processes. I came to the conclusion that it is an affliction because it clearly infects people who are otherwise perfectly intelligent.

And if I'm right, then the afflicted are actually being perfectly honest and sincere in what they say. Those are the thoughts that are going through their minds, it's not an act. Like an old woman at a revival meeting or a crazed teenager on the streets of Damascus, they're not thinking rationally, but they are perfectly sincere. Hence the passion. Makes it tougher.

Interesting piece here: How Partisan Politics Narrows Your Thinking

Loyalty to a political party often trumps reason and logic in numerous ways:

• We recognize that stereotypes aren’t accurate within our own group, but we’re still inclined to generalize about our adversaries.
• To remain loyal to our party we overly simplify issues instead of giving ample consideration to points from both sides.
• We justify and rationalize when it’s our guy.
• We’re forced to lump together several unrelated issues.
• We may feel politically homeless, unable to embrace either party’s platform.
• We fail to recognize that the labels don’t really fit the political parties.
• We simply rely on our party’s reputation rather than impartially evaluating its actions.

A Pew Report found that combined, “consistent liberals” and “consistent conservatives” make up only 20% of Americans. Yet, unsurprisingly, these are the people most likely to run for office and initiate political discussion. This exaggerates political polarization and limits opportunities for open-minded dialogue between the rest of us. We’ve allowed the fervent minority to drive us into one of two ideological camps, or to become disenchanted and disengaged from politics altogether.

We may never be able to convince solidly loyal party members to have an open mind. But the other 80% of us need to think for ourselves.
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Tribalism significantly limits peoples ability to say "I don't agree with my tribe." Tribe members keep criticism to themselves, the tribe can not self-correct or improve. Being able to admit wrong, make adjustments is vital to human survival. Yet when it comes to the tribe collective, we will go down rather than say sorry, how can we make it right?


Also, anybody critical of the tribe must be seen as the enemy and a threat. Notice how both parties always talk about the other as destroying the constitution or bad for America.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

NKoreans KNOW they can win over the press by playing against this Admin. Because it's OBVIOUS which of the two the establishment media hates more. Isn't it? That's pretty damn sick and perverted.. And it's killing my country. The sooner you 2 Lord of the Flies gangs kill each off --- the better....

Yeah, here's the thing.

North Korea didn't steal the election. North Korea doesn't get up there every day an insult the disabled, minorities, women, Gold Star Families and common decency.

It's just a little impoverished country that Trump wants to war-monger against even though it's really not much of a threat to anyone.

It's not North Korea's fault that the GOP pushed a Nazi Troll into the White House.

Do you says all these utterly outrageous things simply to troll?

How can there be a clean debate when one individual is so thoroughly determined to provoke?