How close the real Confederacy came to the alt-left

Divine Wind

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Aug 2, 2011
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There are a lot of places this thread could have been placed, but the quote below places it squarely in political current events :

"how close the real Confederacy also came to the fantasies of the alt-left"

As Professor Guelzo's article points out, the social structure of the Confederacy was highly stratified and more closely resembles the elitism and socialism of the Left Wing. Maybe it's a good thing Lincoln
did invade the South in the War of Northern Aggression! :D


What if the South had won the Civil War? 4 sci-fi scenarios for HBO's 'Confederate'
A successful Confederacy would be a zero-sum economy. In the world of Confederate, the economy would be a hierarchy, with no social mobility, since mobility among economic classes would open the door to economic mobility across racial lines. At the top would be the elite slave-owning families, which owned not only assets but labor, and at the bottom, legally-enslaved African Americans, holding down most of the working-class jobs. There would be no middle class, apart from a thin stratum of professionals: doctors, clergy and lawyers. Beyond that would be only a vast reservoir of restless and unemployable whites, free but bribed into cooperation by Confederate government subsidies and racist propaganda.

Social media progressives are probably right to draw back in horror from the prospect offered by Confederate, although not always for the reasons they presume. The Confederate economy, like the modern Chinese economy, was in the capitalist world but not of it. The Confederate elite of 1861 did not mind making money, but it was aggressively hostile to entrepreneurship and contemptuous of middle-class culture. The most famous advocate of the slave system, George Fitzhugh, frankly described slavery as “traditional socialism” and bitterly contrasted the cruelty of free-market “cannibalism” with the cradle-to-grave welfare provided by the slave owner.

The Confederate government centralized political authority in ways that made a hash of states’ rights, nationalized industries in ways historians have compared to “state socialism,” and imposed the first compulsory national draft in American history. If Benioff and Weiss are successful in creating an alternative world in Confederate, it will shock us fully as much as Game of Thrones has — not for how much of the Confederate future we avoided, but how little.
 
Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.
 
Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.


So, are you aware of the Jesuit influence as it pertains to the Civil War and what part Russia played in it? The 70 year note that came due under Lincoln's watch due to the terms of debt because of the financing of the Revolutionary War?
 
Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.


So, are you aware of the Jesuit influence as it pertains to the Civil War and what part Russia played in it? The 70 year note that came due under Lincoln's watch due to the terms of debt because of the financing of the Revolutionary War?
I have you on my ignore list but I'll give you a chance. What kind of point are you trying to make and how does it pertain to the topic at hand?
 
Trust me, those same Alt Right people that do Nazi salutes to honor Donald Trump ARE the confederates.

They would be insulted you ever suggested otherwise.
 
Trust me, those same Alt Right people that do Nazi salutes to honor Donald Trump ARE the confederates.

They would be insulted you ever suggested otherwise.
This thing is kind of bizarre and I was really hoping OP would do some explaining but it seems he posted it and then went to bed.
 
Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.
No. I want a discussion on the similarities of the Old South structure of government and the idealistic structure of government of "modern Liberals". Frankly, I was a bit taken aback by the article since it revealed or explored areas I've never considered before.

Nowadays, myself included, think of the Confederacy as an expression of "State's Rights", but as the Professor's article points out, the CSA trampled all over state's rights just like the modern left. The elitism, the lacking of a strong Middle Class, something "modern Liberals" have been chipping away since the 1970s. Democrats used to be supportive of blue collar workers, the backbone of America, but nowadays, like the CSA, they only back the elite and throw just enough breadcrumbs to others to shut up opposition.
 
Trust me, those same Alt Right people that do Nazi salutes to honor Donald Trump ARE the confederates.

They would be insulted you ever suggested otherwise.
This thing is kind of bizarre and I was really hoping OP would do some explaining but it seems he posted it and then went to bed.
I took a shower. Something you should do.
 
Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.
No. I want a discussion on the similarities of the Old South structure of government and the idealistic structure of government of "modern Liberals". Frankly, I was a bit taken aback by the article since it revealed or explored areas I've never considered before.

Nowadays, myself included, think of the Confederacy as an expression of "State's Rights", but as the Professor's article points out, the CSA trampled all over state's rights just like the modern left. The elitism, the lacking of a strong Middle Class, something "modern Liberals" have been chipping away since the 1970s. Democrats used to be supportive of blue collar workers, the backbone of America, but nowadays, like the CSA, they only back the elite and throw just enough breadcrumbs to others to shut up opposition.
Sorry dude, your argument requires me to accept your fucked up definition of what modern liberals are and what they do. We live in a plutocracy to be sure but conservatives seem to really like it that way.
 
Trust me, those same Alt Right people that do Nazi salutes to honor Donald Trump ARE the confederates.

They would be insulted you ever suggested otherwise.
This thing is kind of bizarre and I was really hoping OP would do some explaining but it seems he posted it and then went to bed.
I took a shower. Something you should do.
OK I get it now, you are just a history retard who found an article you thought was smart (it's retarded).
 
Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.


So, are you aware of the Jesuit influence as it pertains to the Civil War and what part Russia played in it? The 70 year note that came due under Lincoln's watch due to the terms of debt because of the financing of the Revolutionary War?
I have you on my ignore list but I'll give you a chance. What kind of point are you trying to make and how does it pertain to the topic at hand?
OMG! Are you really trying the old "Well, I had you on ignore, but just this one time I happened to read your post" line? Why the drama if you don't give a shit about his posts or his opinion?

tenor.gif
 
Trust me, those same Alt Right people that do Nazi salutes to honor Donald Trump ARE the confederates.

They would be insulted you ever suggested otherwise.
This thing is kind of bizarre and I was really hoping OP would do some explaining but it seems he posted it and then went to bed.
I took a shower. Something you should do.
OK I get it now, you are just a history retard who found an article you thought was smart (it's retarded).
No, but so far all you've done is troll.

If you have a problem with a Civil War Professor, try trolling him at Gettysburg College:
Guelzo, Allen Carl
Professor of Civil War Era Studies/Professor of History
Civil War Era Studies
[email protected]

Gettysburg College - Allen Guelzo
Dr. Allen C. Guelzo is the Henry R. Luce Professor of the Civil War Era, and Director of Civil War Era Studies at Gettysburg College. He is the author of Abraham Lincoln: Redeemer President, which won the Lincoln Prize for 2000, Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation: The End of Slavery in America, which won the Lincoln Prize for 2005, and Lincoln and Douglas: The Debates That Defined America, which won the Abraham Lincoln Institute Prize for 2008. His most recent work in Lincoln is Abraham Lincoln As A Man of Ideas (a collection of essays published in 2009 by Southern Illinois University Press) and Lincoln, a volume in Oxford University Press’s ‘Very Short Introductions’ series (also 2009). His book on the battle of Gettysburg, Gettysburg: The Last Invasion (Knopf, 2013) spent eight weeks on the New York Times best-seller list. His articles and essays have appeared in scholarly journals, and also in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Christian Science Monitor, The Washington Post, and the Los Angeles Times, and he has been featured on NPR, the Discovery Channel, the National Geographic Channel, and Brian’s Lamb’s BookNotes, and The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. He is a member of the American Historical Association, the Organization of American Historians, the Society for Historians of the Early American Republic, the Society of Civil War Historians, and the Union League of Philadelphia. In September, 2005, he was nominated by President Bush to the National Council on the Humanities, and in December, was awarded the Medal of Honor of the National Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution. He has been a fellow of the American Council of Learned Societies (1991-92), the McNeil Center for Early American Studies at the University of Pennsylvania (1992-93), the Charles Warren Center for American Studies at Harvard University (1994-95) and the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University (2002-03, 2010-11). He is a Non-Resident Fellow of the W.E.B. DuBois Institute at Harvard University and a Research Scholar at the McNeil Center for Early American Studies at the University of Pennsylvania. Together with Patrick Allitt and Gary W. Gallagher, he team-taught The Teaching Company’s new edition of its American History series, and has completed four other series for The Teaching Company, Mister Lincoln, on the life of Abraham Lincoln, The American Mind, on American intellectual history, The American Revolution, and Making History: How Great Historians Interpret the Past. He lives in Paoli and Gettysburg, Pennsylvania with his wife, Debra.
 
Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.


So, are you aware of the Jesuit influence as it pertains to the Civil War and what part Russia played in it? The 70 year note that came due under Lincoln's watch due to the terms of debt because of the financing of the Revolutionary War?
I have you on my ignore list but I'll give you a chance. What kind of point are you trying to make and how does it pertain to the topic at hand?
OMG! Are you really trying the old "Well, I had you on ignore, but just this one time I happened to read your post" line? Why the drama if you don't give a shit about his posts or his opinion?

tenor.gif
Since you don't want to discuss your own topic I will explain. There is only one reason I put anyone on ignore, making personal threats. I can certainly identify with someone having a bad day and perhaps going too far but I have often moved people off my ignore list if they participate in a discussion without being a constant dick.
 
Since you don't want to discuss your own topic I will explain....
That's a lie. The fact is you're the one who has been trolling and not wanting to discuss the topic.

...There is only one reason I put anyone on ignore, making personal threats. I can certainly identify with someone having a bad day and perhaps going too far but I have often moved people off my ignore list if they participate in a discussion without being a constant dick.
Then why did you take him off ignore?

You're posts on this thread alone constitute a dickish attitude. If you have a disagreement with Professor Guelzo's article, why didn't you refute them instead of just trolling posters?

As I've explained previously, many of facts he related make sense, but are not commonly thought about today. Clearly the Left Wing, especially the far Left, doesn't like being identified with the Confederacy, their socialism, their elitism and they dislike of State's Rights. It hits a little too close to home.
 
Trust me, those same Alt Right people that do Nazi salutes to honor Donald Trump ARE the confederates.

They would be insulted you ever suggested otherwise.
This thing is kind of bizarre and I was really hoping OP would do some explaining but it seems he posted it and then went to bed.
I took a shower. Something you should do.
OK I get it now, you are just a history retard who found an article you thought was smart (it's retarded).
No, but so far all you've done is troll.

If you have a problem with a Civil War Professor, try trolling him at Gettysburg
TL;DR The question of what would have happened if the South had successfully seceded is meaningless fantasy. HBO is making a show that is provocative for the sake of being provocative. That's all. Why this supposedly esteemed professor engaged in such a cheap flight of fancy is beyond me. The confederacy was doomed to fail, there is no realistic scenario that has the South win the war and remain stable through to the modern day.
 
Although the Alt-Right were quick to deny they existed and also quick to jump on the bandwagon attacking the Alt-Left, this Professor Guelzo's article wasn't the first time I've seen a learned person or the media use the term. It's just not as common as the Alt-Right.....maybe when the Alt-Left gets someone in the WH, we'll see it more often. :)

Meanwhile:
The Alt-Left Media: One More Sign People Are Looking For Echo Chambers
Today's divisive, partisan politics aren't simply weighted to one side. While the alt-right got a lot of attention in 2016, critics say the alt-left media also continues to peddle conspiracy theories and fake stories. But some experts say the existence of the alt-left is merely the symptom, not the illness as consumers look for stories that affirm their political beliefs....
 
Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.


So, are you aware of the Jesuit influence as it pertains to the Civil War and what part Russia played in it? The 70 year note that came due under Lincoln's watch due to the terms of debt because of the financing of the Revolutionary War?
I have you on my ignore list but I'll give you a chance. What kind of point are you trying to make and how does it pertain to the topic at hand?

I am just asking if you know these little known facts that we were never taught because they are important.
 
Some good points about how the CSA was an example of "War Socialism":

Are You Sure You Are Waving the Right Flag?
No one who understands the history of antebellum America could possibly make the mistake of drawing such sharp distinctions given the fact that it was the Southern states who were pushing for the power of the federal government during the 1850s to protect the institution of slavery through legislative acts such as the Fugitive Slave Act and court cases such as the famous Dred Scott decision. Northern states, on the other hand, insisted at times that states had the right to resist the Fugitive Slave Act by passing Personal Liberty Laws which effectively nullified the power of the federal government in their respective communities.

So, is the record of the Confederacy one of limited government and respect for individual rights? The record includes:

  • Conscription (before the United States)
  • Tax-In-Kind
  • Tariff (higher than the 10 to 15 percent rate proposed by Hamilton in his Report on Manufacturers (1791)
  • Confederate National Investment in Railroads (amounting to 2.5 million in loans, $150,000 advanced, and 1.12 million appropriated)
  • Confederate Quartermasters leveled price controls on private mills and were later authorized to impress whatever supplies they needed.
  • Government ownership of key industries
  • Government regulation of commerce
  • Suspension of habeus corpus (According to historian, Mark Neely, 4,108 civilians were held by military authorities)
John Majewski describes this government as “Confederate war socialism”.
 

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