House passes concealed carry bill, tosses state rights and const. out window.

[bigrebnc1775]

Whilte I respect your opinion and appreciate your answer, I'm aware of the meaning of " well regulated" as it applies to the second Amendment, however as it applies to the the Constitution as a whole " well regulated" who is that? the " people" and who represents the people ? Congress. Thus the reason why I highlighted the word people.

Article I Sec. 8
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

It's pretty clear since the inception of this nation that the 2nd Amendment even during it's debate was not an unlimited right, and further Congress does have the power to regulate weapons. While it's true that citizens have the right to own a gun and I do not disagree with that, that right is not an unlimited right and for over 200 plus years that right has been limited and controlled by Congress and the States. My posting was in response to your question and it was to show that the 2nd Amendment just like every other "right" within the bill of rights is also not unlimted and can be regulated by the "people".

However you are using a 20th century definition to define the meaning of a word that was used in the 18th century. It's kind of similar to a square peg fitting in a round hole.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

House votes to expand concealed gun law – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

Now that I have your attention, I'm not 100% sure it would be unconstitutional, but my first impression is that this would violate the state's rights to regulate licensing on its own. At the very least, it certainly is ideologically opposed to respecting state rights. I'm very perplexed by this. I support individual rights to carry a gun. But I think that it's over stepping for the federal government onto the states.

Perhaps you should read the bill before you comment on it.

This bill would simply allow individuals with a permit to carry a concealed gun in one state to bring that weapon into any other state that also has a concealed firearm law.

If thats the case then why are drivers licenses from one state accepted in every state? Even though they have different traffic laws.

I'm not understanding your question.

As it stands now concealed carry permits are not recipricol. This bill would change that.

I'm pretty sure traffic laws in the US are pretty much the same in every state.

If not then tell me which traffic laws are different from state to state.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Perhaps you should read the bill before you comment on it.

This bill would simply allow individuals with a permit to carry a concealed gun in one state to bring that weapon into any other state that also has a concealed firearm law.

If thats the case then why are drivers licenses from one state accepted in every state? Even though they have different traffic laws.

I'm not understanding your question.

As it stands now concealed carry permits are not recipricol. This bill would change that.

I'm pretty sure traffic laws in the US are pretty much the same in every state.

If not then tell me which traffic laws are different from state to state.

I will simply state yes traffic laws vary from state too state

The simple answer about whether or not traffic school laws vary from state to state is “yes”. There are variances in all aspects of traffic law from state to state and traffic school rules are no exception. In fact, while most states allow you to take traffic school in lieu of a traffic conviction, that’s not even universal across the country.

Do Traffic School Laws Vary By State? - Autos.com

Therefore if the anit gun crowd try to compare a drivers license to a CCW then why are one states DL acceptable in all states even though they have different traffic laws?

Driving rules

If you are a first time visitor to the United States and are planning to rent a car during your visit, there are some driving rules and customs you might not be aware of. It is a good idea to drive defensively -- always be aware of nearby vehicles and anticipate possible movements by other drivers. Also, it is important to know that driving laws are set by each state and rules and speed limits may differ slightly when traveling across state borders. However, there are some general rules. Below are a few highlights:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g191-c1867/United-States:Traveling.By.Car.In.The.Us.html

I will add that in some states it is illegal to use a cell phone while operating a vehicle and some states it is ok while other states have an age limit.
Some states only allow the operator if they are 18 or under to have one more person of the same age in the vehicle.

 

[Navy1960]

Whilte I respect your opinion and appreciate your answer, I'm aware of the meaning of " well regulated" as it applies to the second Amendment, however as it applies to the the Constitution as a whole " well regulated" who is that? the " people" and who represents the people ? Congress. Thus the reason why I highlighted the word people.

Article I Sec. 8
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

It's pretty clear since the inception of this nation that the 2nd Amendment even during it's debate was not an unlimited right, and further Congress does have the power to regulate weapons. While it's true that citizens have the right to own a gun and I do not disagree with that, that right is not an unlimited right and for over 200 plus years that right has been limited and controlled by Congress and the States. My posting was in response to your question and it was to show that the 2nd Amendment just like every other "right" within the bill of rights is also not unlimted and can be regulated by the "people".

However you are using a 20th century definition to define the meaning of a word that was used in the 18th century. It's kind of similar to a square peg fitting in a round hole.

Actually I'm not, actually I'm using the word together with Militia along with it's origins and the foundations of this nation and where it came from in English Law as well as over two centuries of court decisions on the subject to highlight the meaning. If the framers had intended for for the 2nd Amendment to be anywhere close to an "unlimted right" then it would have been added to the 1st Amendment without the Militia part which it's very clear under Article 1 sec. 8 congress has the right to regulate. Again, I do not disagree with you that a person(s) cannot own a gun, however I do believe that Congress (i.e. the people) has the power to regulate guns as they see fit.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Whilte I respect your opinion and appreciate your answer, I'm aware of the meaning of " well regulated" as it applies to the second Amendment, however as it applies to the the Constitution as a whole " well regulated" who is that? the " people" and who represents the people ? Congress. Thus the reason why I highlighted the word people.

Article I Sec. 8
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

It's pretty clear since the inception of this nation that the 2nd Amendment even during it's debate was not an unlimited right, and further Congress does have the power to regulate weapons. While it's true that citizens have the right to own a gun and I do not disagree with that, that right is not an unlimited right and for over 200 plus years that right has been limited and controlled by Congress and the States. My posting was in response to your question and it was to show that the 2nd Amendment just like every other "right" within the bill of rights is also not unlimted and can be regulated by the "people".

However you are using a 20th century definition to define the meaning of a word that was used in the 18th century. It's kind of similar to a square peg fitting in a round hole.

Actually I'm not, actually I'm using the word together with Militia along with it's origins and the foundations of this nation and where it came from in English Law as well as over two centuries of court decisions on the subject to highlight the meaning. If the framers had intended for for the 2nd Amendment to be anywhere close to an "unlimted right" then it would have been added to the 1st Amendment without the Militia part which it's very clear under Article 1 sec. 8 congress has the right to regulate. Again, I do not disagree with you that a person(s) cannot own a gun, however I do believe that Congress (i.e. the people) has the power to regulate guns as they see fit.

When you were defining the words well regulated. That's the word's I am talking about.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

If thats the case then why are drivers licenses from one state accepted in every state? Even though they have different traffic laws.

I'm not understanding your question.

As it stands now concealed carry permits are not recipricol. This bill would change that.

I'm pretty sure traffic laws in the US are pretty much the same in every state.

If not then tell me which traffic laws are different from state to state.

I will simply state yes traffic laws vary from state too state

The simple answer about whether or not traffic school laws vary from state to state is “yes”. There are variances in all aspects of traffic law from state to state and traffic school rules are no exception. In fact, while most states allow you to take traffic school in lieu of a traffic conviction, that’s not even universal across the country.

Do Traffic School Laws Vary By State? - Autos.com

Therefore if the anit gun crowd try to compare a drivers license to a CCW then why are one states DL acceptable in all states even though they have different traffic laws?

A little disingenuous on your part huh?

You show a link explaining traffic SCHOOL laws, not traffic laws.

I'll concede that procedures dealing with violations differ from state to state and I'll concede that some laws apply different standards, can you turn right on a red light?
Can you use a cell phone while driving? But the basic traffic rules , speed limit. red lights, yield and stop signs, do not pass etc..... are all basically the same in every state.

I'm not sure the anti-gun crowd is trying to make that comparison. That is unless you're part of that crowd.

 

[Contumacious]

House votes to expand concealed gun law – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

Now that I have your attention, I'm not 100% sure it would be unconstitutional,

Yes, indeed it would be unconstitutional............in Cuba.

We hold these truths to be self-evident,

that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I'm not understanding your question.

As it stands now concealed carry permits are not recipricol. This bill would change that.

I'm pretty sure traffic laws in the US are pretty much the same in every state.

If not then tell me which traffic laws are different from state to state.

I will simply state yes traffic laws vary from state too state

The simple answer about whether or not traffic school laws vary from state to state is “yes”. There are variances in all aspects of traffic law from state to state and traffic school rules are no exception. In fact, while most states allow you to take traffic school in lieu of a traffic conviction, that’s not even universal across the country.

Do Traffic School Laws Vary By State? - Autos.com

Therefore if the anit gun crowd try to compare a drivers license to a CCW then why are one states DL acceptable in all states even though they have different traffic laws?

A little disingenuous on your part huh?

You show a link explaining traffic SCHOOL laws, not traffic laws.

I'll concede that procedures dealing with violations differ from state to state and I'll concede that some laws apply different standards, can you turn right on a red light?
Can you use a cell phone while driving? But the basic traffic rules , speed limit. red lights, yield and stop signs, do not pass etc..... are all basically the same in every state.

I'm not sure the anti-gun crowd is trying to make that comparison. That is unless you're part of that crowd.

I posted two links that also mentioned traffic laws vary from state to state. One was as you mentioned traffic school but it also mentioned traffic laws being different.

Plus I also added more to that post.

 

[Navy1960]

Red, I know, it's why I said I was aware of the 18th century meaning of the word " well regulated" . If you look at the definition I put up there its fitting the 18th Century meaning as well in that " to put in good order" and taken in conjunction with everything else I mentioned which I won't repost so it won't crowd up the thread, ithe word Militia seems pretty clear at least in my humble opinion even in the 2nd Amendment there is a power to to regulate on behalf of the Congress ( i.e. people) who is Congress if they are not the people?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Red, I know, it's why I said I was aware of the 18th century meaning of the word " well regulated" . If you look at the definition I put up there its fitting the 18th Century meaning as well in that " to put in good order" and taken in conjunction with everything else I mentioned which I won't repost so it won't crowd up the thread, ithe word Militia seems pretty clear at least in my humble opinion even in the 2nd Amendment there is a power to to regulate on behalf of the Congress ( i.e. people) who is Congress if they are not the people?

I have never heard that congress were the people but I have heard that the militia were the people.
The Framers did not say "A Militia well regulated by the Congress, being necessary to the security of a free State"

They said A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I will simply state yes traffic laws vary from state too state

The simple answer about whether or not traffic school laws vary from state to state is “yes”. There are variances in all aspects of traffic law from state to state and traffic school rules are no exception. In fact, while most states allow you to take traffic school in lieu of a traffic conviction, that’s not even universal across the country.

Do Traffic School Laws Vary By State? - Autos.com

Therefore if the anit gun crowd try to compare a drivers license to a CCW then why are one states DL acceptable in all states even though they have different traffic laws?

A little disingenuous on your part huh?

You show a link explaining traffic SCHOOL laws, not traffic laws.

I'll concede that procedures dealing with violations differ from state to state and I'll concede that some laws apply different standards, can you turn right on a red light?
Can you use a cell phone while driving? But the basic traffic rules , speed limit. red lights, yield and stop signs, do not pass etc..... are all basically the same in every state.

I'm not sure the anti-gun crowd is trying to make that comparison. That is unless you're part of that crowd.

I posted two links that also mentioned traffic laws vary from state to state. One was as you mentioned traffic school but it also mentioned traffic laws being different.

Plus I also added more to that post.

My point is there is no significant differences in traffic laws. Speed limit vary sure and some traffic rules are more stricter than others but basic rules of the road are the same.

I still see no connection with this and CCW laws. If all states allowed concealed carry then an argument may be made. But that's not the case.

This law is simply allowing the states that do have CCW laws to honor CCW permits from other states. It's really quite simple and I don't understand the opposition to it.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

A little disingenuous on your part huh?

You show a link explaining traffic SCHOOL laws, not traffic laws.

I'll concede that procedures dealing with violations differ from state to state and I'll concede that some laws apply different standards, can you turn right on a red light?
Can you use a cell phone while driving? But the basic traffic rules , speed limit. red lights, yield and stop signs, do not pass etc..... are all basically the same in every state.

I'm not sure the anti-gun crowd is trying to make that comparison. That is unless you're part of that crowd.

I posted two links that also mentioned traffic laws vary from state to state. One was as you mentioned traffic school but it also mentioned traffic laws being different.

Plus I also added more to that post.

My point is there is no significant differences in traffic laws. Speed limit vary sure and some traffic rules are more stricter than others but basic rules of the road are the same.

I still see no connection with this and CCW laws. If all states allowed concealed carry then an argument may be made. But that's not the case.

This law is simply allowing the states that do have CCW laws to honor CCW permits from other states. It's really quite simple and I don't understand the opposition to it.

As for speeding laws yes there is a difference from state to state. Speed limits change during certain hours What was 70 mph during certain hours will change to 60 during other hours. But as I stated traffic laws vary just like firearm laws do. But one document is acceptable in all states while the other one isn't.

Who said I was opposing it?

 

[Inthemiddle]

This bill would simply allow individuals with a permit to carry a concealed gun in one state to bring that weapon into any other state that also has a concealed firearm law.

Which is a completely inappropriate, and likely unconstitutional, exercise of federal powers. Such decisions are for the states to decide on their own, whether to honor the CCW permits of other states.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Perhaps you should read the bill before you comment on it.

This bill would simply allow individuals with a permit to carry a concealed gun in one state to bring that weapon into any other state that also has a concealed firearm law.

If thats the case then why are drivers licenses from one state accepted in every state? Even though they have different traffic laws.

I'm not understanding your question.

As it stands now concealed carry permits are not recipricol. This bill would change that.

I'm pretty sure traffic laws in the US are pretty much the same in every state.

If not then tell me which traffic laws are different from state to state.

What it comes down to is that the states, by their own accord, have chosen to extend driving privileges to licensed drivers from other states. That is their right, to do so or not. This bill would presume the federal government has the right to dictate to the states the effect of their own licensing powers and make the decision for them.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Yes, indeed it would be unconstitutional............in Cuba.

We hold these truths to be self-evident,

that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

If you're going to talk about the constitution, at least have the decency to quote, you know...the constitution.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

This bill would simply allow individuals with a permit to carry a concealed gun in one state to bring that weapon into any other state that also has a concealed firearm law.

Which is a completely inappropriate, and likely unconstitutional, exercise of federal powers. Such decisions are for the states to decide on their own, whether to honor the CCW permits of other states.

But who does the constitution grant the power of the 2nd ammendment to? The Feds, the states, or the people?

I would argue it places that power squarly in the hands of each individual.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Now see the wording of the 10th ammendment, the ammendment you are deferring to when you bring up the states right's argument.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I posted two links that also mentioned traffic laws vary from state to state. One was as you mentioned traffic school but it also mentioned traffic laws being different.

Plus I also added more to that post.

My point is there is no significant differences in traffic laws. Speed limit vary sure and some traffic rules are more stricter than others but basic rules of the road are the same.

I still see no connection with this and CCW laws. If all states allowed concealed carry then an argument may be made. But that's not the case.

This law is simply allowing the states that do have CCW laws to honor CCW permits from other states. It's really quite simple and I don't understand the opposition to it.

As for speeding laws yes there is a difference from state to state. Speed limits change during certain hours What was 70 mph during certain hours will change to 60 during other hours. But as I stated traffic laws vary just like firearm laws do. But one document is acceptable in all states while the other one isn't.

Who said I was opposing it?

Sure looked that way. I guess you just wanted to debate traffic laws which has no bearing on the topic at hand.

But yes speed limits change from state to state, city to city and several times within a single city. But the fact remains every state has the same basic traffic laws!

You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

My point is there is no significant differences in traffic laws. Speed limit vary sure and some traffic rules are more stricter than others but basic rules of the road are the same.

I still see no connection with this and CCW laws. If all states allowed concealed carry then an argument may be made. But that's not the case.

This law is simply allowing the states that do have CCW laws to honor CCW permits from other states. It's really quite simple and I don't understand the opposition to it.

As for speeding laws yes there is a difference from state to state. Speed limits change during certain hours What was 70 mph during certain hours will change to 60 during other hours. But as I stated traffic laws vary just like firearm laws do. But one document is acceptable in all states while the other one isn't.

Who said I was opposing it?

Sure looked that way. I guess you just wanted to debate traffic laws which has no bearing on the topic at hand.

But yes speed limits change from state to state, city to city and several times within a single city. But the fact remains every state has the same basic traffic laws!

You're comparing apples to oranges.

NO, in your opinion do you think I am against the bill? If Drivers licenses of one state is accepted in all states why can't a CCW be accepted the same way?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

This bill would simply allow individuals with a permit to carry a concealed gun in one state to bring that weapon into any other state that also has a concealed firearm law.

Which is a completely inappropriate, and likely unconstitutional, exercise of federal powers. Such decisions are for the states to decide on their own, whether to honor the CCW permits of other states.

Show me in the Constitution where it states you cannot cross state lines while armed.

The 2nd Amendment makes no such distinction.

If you are going to say something is unconstitutional then quote the part of the constitution that supports your argument.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

If thats the case then why are drivers licenses from one state accepted in every state? Even though they have different traffic laws.

I'm not understanding your question.

As it stands now concealed carry permits are not recipricol. This bill would change that.

I'm pretty sure traffic laws in the US are pretty much the same in every state.

If not then tell me which traffic laws are different from state to state.

What it comes down to is that the states, by their own accord, have chosen to extend driving privileges to licensed drivers from other states. That is their right, to do so or not. This bill would presume the federal government has the right to dictate to the states the effect of their own licensing powers and make the decision for them.

Traffic laws are not not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, therefore not regulated by the federal government but is instead left up to the individual states per the 10th Amendment.

Do you not understand the Constitution. especially the 10th Amendment?