Hitler's last gasp...

[CrusaderFrank]

At the end of the war, the Allies got a chance to look at the full extend of German R&D and they were working on Jet Engines and other advances that might have given them an edge.

The situation in the East was desperate. Since the defeat at Stalingrad in 42, the war had been headed inexorably back toward Germany. In late 43 or early 44 Rommel had suggested that they could thwart the Soviet advances by producing more fighters than bombers and more 8.8cm Pak anti tank guns than tanks.

The fighting men of the USA really comported themselves well at the Bulge! Thank God for their fighting Spirit and resolve!

Also Patton's Prayer was for real, "To each officer and soldier in the Third United States Army, I Wish a Merry Christmas. I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty, and skill in battle. We march in our might to complete victory. May God's blessings rest upon each of you on this Christmas Day. G.S. Patton, Jr, Lieutenant General, Commanding, Third United States Army."

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Germans lost on strategy, not tactics.

Better squad level assualt weapons would not have made Hitler see the value of strategic withdrawls and the foolishness of last man holding orders.

More lead down range usually gets the results you want...bolt action rifles just don't cut it.

 

[del]

Germans lost on strategy, not tactics.

Better squad level assualt weapons would not have made Hitler see the value of strategic withdrawls and the foolishness of last man holding orders.

More lead down range usually gets the results you want...bolt action rifles just don't cut it.

neither does losing an army of 600,000 due to stupidity/insanity.

 

[Xenophon]

Germans lost on strategy, not tactics.

Better squad level assualt weapons would not have made Hitler see the value of strategic withdrawls and the foolishness of last man holding orders.

More lead down range usually gets the results you want...bolt action rifles just don't cut it.

A study of tactical engagments shows the Germans still inflicting enormous losses on the Soviets well into 1944.

But strategically the war was already lost.

 

[Xenophon]

Germans lost on strategy, not tactics.

Better squad level assualt weapons would not have made Hitler see the value of strategic withdrawls and the foolishness of last man holding orders.

More lead down range usually gets the results you want...bolt action rifles just don't cut it.

neither does losing an army of 600,000 due to stupidity/insanity.

Less publicised for some reason is the German fiasco in Tunisia that summer, Hitler rushed forces by air to Tunis, and managed to throw away 250,000 German troops to add to the Stalingrad debacle of a few months earlier.

When you add in Kursk which soon followed, germany had lost over 1,000,000 men in less then a year and the Russians were in poland and the western allies in Italy.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

You really have to give the Rooskies credit for learning how to fight back.

They were target practice in 41, fought a desperate counterattack to save Moscow in Dec 41 but by Dec 42 got their act together enough to pinch off German 6th Army at Stalingrad by attacking the weak sections of the line.

They used the same bores for their artillery, tank and anti tank weapons (76.2, 85, 122 and 152mm) making it simple to mass produce the firepower, and used the easy to maintain, diesel powered T-34 as their main battle tank. When they needed more firepower, they put an 85mm or 122mm gun on the T34 frame. The Germans had as many as 4 different chassis for their MBT making repairs challenging.

 

[Big Fitz]

The 82nd was ordered to halt 2nd Panzer which had broken through the allied center and was about to cross the last major river before the allied supply port (and german objective) of antwerpt was reached. The Brits had been holding the area but Montgomery ordered them back to 'regroup', the Brits told the 82 to clear out before the Germans arrived.

The All Americans replied 'Retreat hell, we just got here.'

They held the germans.

This mentality has been dormant in our society for almost 60 years. It's going to be a bloody day if it has to re-awaken on our own soil.

God bless these great soldiers and those who gave the ultimate sacrifice so that we could be free.

 

[blastoff]

I dunno how authentic the depiction of the Bulge is in Band of Brothers, but if nothing else it seems to be a fairly accurate portrayal of fighting - hell, just existing - in those terrible winter conditions.

My favorite quote from the series - whether historical or made up in Hollywood - was by Cpt. Winters as they were heading into Bastogne:

Lt. Rice: Looks like you gurs are going to be surrounded.
Cpt. Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

 

[GHook93]

The show Band of Brothers did a great job depicting Baston

 

[Xenophon]

This mentality has been dormant in our society for almost 60 years. It's going to be a bloody day if it has to re-awaken on our own soil.

God bless these great soldiers and those who gave the ultimate sacrifice so that we could be free.

The Airborne spirt lives, its simply wasted these days in stupid and pointless wars.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The battle of the Bulge opened this day in 1944, in the early morning hours of a cold and misty day. It would be Hitler's final attempt to change the fortunes of war in the west, and it would end in failure at the hands of American arms and american resolve to stand and fight.

The opening of the attack

The Ardennes offensive of December 1944 was the last occasion in which Hitler proved that he was right and his generals wrong. His Wacht am Rhein (Watch on the Rhine) plan for splitting the Allied armies before they could reach and cross the Rhine was an audacious gamble fit to rank with Montgomery's 'Market Garden'. Like 'Market Garden', the Ardennes offensive came close to success but was defeated by natural obstacles and a frantically-improvised defence.

The massing of three armies - 6th SS Panzer, 5th Panzer and 7th Panzer, a total of 20 divisions of which seven were armoured - was a masterpiece made possible, only by the belated placing of the Reich on a full war footing. After all the disasters of 1944, 18 new divisions had been sent to the West by 16th December 1944. The idea was to strike through the Ardennes (held only by six resting American divisions) and cross the Meuse. The generals, under Rundstedt, the supreme commander, would have been content to destroy the 25 Allied divisions east of the Meuse. Hitler, however, insisted on a grandiose drive north-west to Antwerp, with the idea of sweeping through the whole of Montgomery's 21st Army Group with the possibility, even, of forcing an evacuation from the coast, as at Dunkirk in 1940. He ignored the fact that every road in the Ardennes was clogged with snow and mud, as they had not been in summer 1940.

The surprise assault over a 40 mile sector on 16th December cracked open but did not annihilate the American front. The full implications of the German attack were not fully realized at first. The bad weather, including fog, in the period before the attack, and the wooded terrain, between them prevented satisfactory air reconnaissance. As the armour rolled heavily but sluggishly through the breaches, two bastions of resistance - at St Vith and Bastogne - stood firm and cut down the How of the advance. North of the breach the Americans unexpectedly held out, blocking 6th SS Panzer Army and trapping its spearhead in the Ambleve valley. But the deep penetration in the centre by 5th Panzer Army between St Vith and Bastogne threatened disaster for the Allies if the latter should fall.

The Allied recovery

The German success in the first three days of the 'Battle of the Bulge' forced a major decision on the Allied High Command. The German penetration threatened to split the 12th Army Group. So Eisenhower agreed to transfer all US forces north of the breakthrough to Montgomery's command while General Omar Bradley co-ordinated US forces to the south. The US 82nd and 101st Airborne Division were brought up to help stem the German momentum, the 101st with units from 10th Armored Division, holding the key centre of Bastogne. Meanwhile Patton promised to attack towards encircled Bastogne on 22nd December - but on the 20th the 2nd Panzer Division, by-passing Bastogne, got across the Ourthe river and was within 23 miles of the Meuse. Foul weather was also preventing the Allied fighters and supply planes from operating.

On the 22nd, crisis day for the Allies, the Americans started to pull out of the St Vith 'horseshoe' and the 2nd Panzer Division began to drive for the Meuse. But on the 23rd the weather cleared. Supplies were dropped into Bastogne and the German columns came under increasing air attack - over 14,000 sorties were flown in three days from 23rd December. Back at the base of the 'Bulge' there was traffic chaos, with the US forces north of the salient holding on to two of the four roads which the Germans had counted on seizing. And the British and Americans were rushing forces into position, first to block and then to counter-attack.

On Christmas Day, 2nd Panzer reached its 'farthest west' only to run out of fuel at Celles, four miles short of the Meuse. Bastogne was relieved the following day and all German attacks were halted, with the generals finally telling Hitler that there was no hope of reaching the Meuse.

The Bastogne fighting reached its peak on 3rd-4th January, 1945 when the last German attacks on town and corridor failed and the US forces took the counter-offensive. On 16th January the forces 'coming from north and south joined up at Houffalize. On 20th January the weather cleared, permitting full-scale Allied air operations:-By 28th January the last vestiges of the 'Bulge' had been eliminated.

Thread of the Month! Thank You for remembering!

 

[Oddball]

Battle of the Bulge once again showed how Hitler was an absolutely horrible military planner and tactician.

Rather than using the successful model of blitzkrieg --i.e. using light-to-medium armor to blow through defenses and gain ground-- he insisted upon deploying the ponderous, fuel swilling Tiger II and still technically problematic Panther tanks to lead the charge, when the Pz IIIs and IVs would have more than effectively got the job done against the inferior Shermans and Chaffees.

As it was, the Nazi tanks ran out of fuel mere miles outside of Antwerp and a possible stalemate in the west.

 

[rightwinger]

Battle of the Bulge once again showed how Hitler was an absolutely horrible military planner and tactician.

Rather than using the successful model of blitzkrieg --i.e. using light-to-medium armor to blow through defenses and gain ground-- he insisted upon deploying the ponderous, fuel swilling Tiger II and still technically problematic Panther tanks to lead the charge, when the Pz IIIs and IVs would have more than effectively got the job done against the inferior Shermans and Chaffees.

As it was, the Nazi tanks ran out of fuel mere miles outside of Antwerp and a possible stalemate in the west.

Hitler had unlimited balls but no sense. His unwillingness to use tactical retreat...live to fight another day, cost millions of troops and ultimately, the war

 

[Ringel05]

Battle of the Bulge once again showed how Hitler was an absolutely horrible military planner and tactician.

Rather than using the successful model of blitzkrieg --i.e. using light-to-medium armor to blow through defenses and gain ground-- he insisted upon deploying the ponderous, fuel swilling Tiger II and still technically problematic Panther tanks to lead the charge, when the Pz IIIs and IVs would have more than effectively got the job done against the inferior Shermans and Chaffees.

As it was, the Nazi tanks ran out of fuel mere miles outside of Antwerp and a possible stalemate in the west.

You do realize the Germans never used technical blitzkrieg tactics except to a limited extent during the Bulge. The General Staff continued to use modified Schliffen Plans throughout the entire war with the addition of the Luftwaffe in an aerial artillery role.

 

[Ringel05]

A friend of mine is involved in WWII reenacting. Not my cuppa tea, but I guess we all have our geek angles. They do a big Battle of the Bulge reenactment in January at Fort Indiantown Gap in PA every year.

That's my geek angle.

 

[Oddball]

Battle of the Bulge once again showed how Hitler was an absolutely horrible military planner and tactician.

Rather than using the successful model of blitzkrieg --i.e. using light-to-medium armor to blow through defenses and gain ground-- he insisted upon deploying the ponderous, fuel swilling Tiger II and still technically problematic Panther tanks to lead the charge, when the Pz IIIs and IVs would have more than effectively got the job done against the inferior Shermans and Chaffees.

As it was, the Nazi tanks ran out of fuel mere miles outside of Antwerp and a possible stalemate in the west.

You do realize the Germans never used technical blitzkrieg tactics except to a limited extent during the Bulge. The General Staff continued to use modified Schliffen Plans throughout the entire war with the addition of the Luftwaffe in an aerial artillery role.

I do understand that.

Still, the use of troublesome (Panther) and excessively heavy and fuel gobbling (Tiger I & II) tanks, in the face of needing a quick victory is just plain inexplicable. Especially when you factor in that even the Easy-8 Sherman was just barely on equal footing with the Pz IIIN and no match for the Pz IV.

And with the frozen ground, the Germans also had enough SPs that could keep up with that kind of rapid advance battle.

In a backward-assed left-handed sort of way, Hitler could almost be framed as a savior of the free world, by way of his horrible role as a military strategist and absolute ineptitude in combined arms tactics.

 

[Ringel05]

Battle of the Bulge once again showed how Hitler was an absolutely horrible military planner and tactician.

Rather than using the successful model of blitzkrieg --i.e. using light-to-medium armor to blow through defenses and gain ground-- he insisted upon deploying the ponderous, fuel swilling Tiger II and still technically problematic Panther tanks to lead the charge, when the Pz IIIs and IVs would have more than effectively got the job done against the inferior Shermans and Chaffees.

As it was, the Nazi tanks ran out of fuel mere miles outside of Antwerp and a possible stalemate in the west.

You do realize the Germans never used technical blitzkrieg tactics except to a limited extent during the Bulge. The General Staff continued to use modified Schliffen Plans throughout the entire war with the addition of the Luftwaffe in an aerial artillery role.

I do understand that.

Still, the use of troublesome (Panther) and excessively heavy and fuel gobbling (Tiger I & II) tanks, in the face of needing a quick victory is just plain inexplicable. Especially when you factor in that even the Easy-8 Sherman was just barely on equal footing with the Pz IIIN and no match for the Pz IV.

And with the frozen ground, the Germans also had enough SPs that could keep up with that kind of rapid advance battle.

In a backward-assed left-handed sort of way, Hitler could almost be framed as a savior of the free world, by way of his horrible role as a military strategist and absolute ineptitude in combined arms tactics.

The unfortunate aspect of this (for the Germans) was the Wehrmachts' early victories gave Hitler the false sense that he was smarter than his generals, who he mistrusted and maligned as being cowardly. The truth is it wasn't so much the Germanys' tactical abilities early on (They made lots of mistakes) but the lack and or misuse of modern tactics by their opponents. Hitler in his megalomania never figure this out, if he had a lot things would have turned out differently. Thankfully he didn't grasp his own shortcomings.

 

[Xenophon]

I do understand that.

Still, the use of troublesome (Panther) and excessively heavy and fuel gobbling (Tiger I & II) tanks, in the face of needing a quick victory is just plain inexplicable. Especially when you factor in that even the Easy-8 Sherman was just barely on equal footing with the Pz IIIN and no match for the Pz IV.

And with the frozen ground, the Germans also had enough SPs that could keep up with that kind of rapid advance battle.

In a backward-assed left-handed sort of way, Hitler could almost be framed as a savior of the free world, by way of his horrible role as a military strategist and absolute ineptitude in combined arms tactics.

Hold the phone their chief.

A Pzkw IIIN carried a short 75mm for troop support, and was useless in tank battles. Even a basic M4 outclassed the entie PzkwIII line.

As for the IV, it had a better gun then a standard M4, until the 76mm was added which puts both tanks on equal footing.

But that is irrelvent to the US way of war in WWII, which was all about fiepower. It didn't matter what type of tanks they used, standard US tactics were to blow the hell out of everything with arty, and it worked damn well.

 

[Xenophon]

And let's not forget this badboy, the Shrman firefly, one of the best tanks ever to see combat.

 

[Oddball]

A lot of the Pz III J/L/N models were re-equipped with the high velocity 75mm gun.
Panzer III Ausf. N (PzKpfw IIIN)

The Pz IV was a better tank than anything the Americans had until the Pershing.

In any case we're both right in that the tactics and misuse/misallocation of hardware are what lost the battle and the war.