Forgiveness

[Avatar4321]

I found the other account that was causing me to ponder forgiveness:

Our Christian Challenge

I think perhaps so far I have made you think only of the rather obvious transgressions young Latter-day Saints face, the temptations Satan never seems to keep very subtle. But what about the gospel-living that isn't so obvious and may be of a higher order still? Let me shift both the tone and the temptations just slightly and cite other examples of our Christian challenge.

On the night of March 24, 1832, a dozen men stormed the Hiram, Ohio, home where Joseph and Emma Smith were staying. Both were physically and emotionally spent, not only from all the travails of the young Church at the time but also because on this particular evening they had been up caring for their two adopted twins, born eleven months earlier on the same day that Emma had given birth to--and then lost--their own twins. Emma had gone to bed first while Joseph stayed up with the children; then she had arisen to take her turn, encouraging her husband to get some sleep. No sooner had he begun to doze than he heard his wife give a terrifying scream and found himself being torn from the house and very nearly being torn limb from limb.

Cursing as they went, the mob that had seized him were swearing to kill Joseph if he resisted. One man grabbed him by the throat until he lost consciousness from lack of breath. He came to only to overhear part of their conversation on whether he should be murdered. It was determined that for now he would simply be stripped naked, beaten senseless, tarred and feathered, and left to fend for himself in the bitter March night. Stripped of his clothing, fighting off fists and tar paddles on every side, and resisting a vial of some liquid--perhaps poison--which he shattered with his teeth as it was forced into his mouth, he miraculously managed to fight off the entire mob and eventually made his way back to the house. In the dim light his wife thought the tar stains covering his body were blood stains, and she fainted at the sight.

Friends spent the entire night scraping and removing the tar and applying liniments to his scratched and battered body. I now quote directly from the Prophet Joseph's record:

By morning I was ready to be clothed again. This being the Sabbath morning, the people assembled for meeting at the usual hour of worship, and among them came also the mobbers [of the night before. Then he names them.] With my flesh all scarified and defaced, I preached to the congregation as usual, and in the afternoon of the same day baptized three individuals. [HC 1:264]

Unfortunately, one of the adopted twins, growing worse from the exposure and turmoil of the night, died the following Friday. "With my flesh all scarified and defaced, I preached to the congregation as usual"! To that slimy band of cowards who by Friday next will quite literally be the murderers of your child? Stand there hurting from the hair of your head that was pulled and then tarred into a mat, hurting right down to your foot that was nearly torn off being wrenched out the door of your own home? Preach the gospel to that damnable bunch of sniveling reprobates? Surely this is no time to stand by principle. It is daylight now and the odds aren't twelve to one anymore. Let's just conclude this Sunday service right now and go outside to finish last evening's business. It was, after all, a fairly long night for Joseph and Emma; maybe it should be an equally short morning for this dirty dozen who have snickeringly shown up for church.

But those feelings that I have even now just reading about this experience 150 years later--and feelings I know that would have raged in my Irish blood that morning--mark only one of the differences between me and the Prophet Joseph Smith. You see, a disciple of Christ--which I testify to you Joseph was and is--always has to be a disciple; the judge does not give any time off for bad behavior. A Christian always stands on principle, even as old Holland is out there swinging a pitchfork and screaming an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth--forgetting, as dispensation after dispensation has forgotten, that this only leaves everyone blind and toothless.

No, the good people, the strong people, dig down deeper and find a better way. Like Christ, they know that when it is hardest to be so is precisely the time you have to be at your best. As another confession to you, I have always feared that I could not have said at Calvary's cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Not after the spitting, and the cursing, and the thorns, and the nails. Not if they don't care or understand that this horrible price in personal pain is being paid for them. But that's just the time when the fiercest kind of integrity and loyalty to high purpose must take over. That's just the time when it matters the very most and when everything else hangs in the balance--for surely it did that day. You and I won't ever find ourselves on that cross, but we repeatedly find ourselves at the foot of it. And how we act there will speak volumes about what we think of Christ's character and his call for us to be his disciples.

I remember always being moved by that. There are other details I know about that mob attack from other sources. From that night on, Joseph had a chipped tooth. The sermon he preached on the next day was on the topic of forgiveness.

I have to say, I likely would have been angry as well. But that's when we need to have forgiveness and charity the most isn't it?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sometimes I have to force myself to do it, tho

Some people are harder to forgive than others
Some THINGS are more difficult to forgive.......

I can't force forgiveness. I invite it, and I am deeply committed to bringing it forward.

 

[Truthmatters]

When you or anyone rejects the truth simply because you reject the source, then the arrogance is your own.

Attacking the messenger while avoiding the message is the biggest blunder of them all.

There is NO arrogance in decerning verifiable proof that something exsists.

You insult me for NOT following blindly like you do.

I dont accept things without a factual basis.

You did when you accepted your religion.

What makes you think anyone who believes differently then you is doing so blindly?

You accept alot of things without a factual basis. I don't think there is a human being alive who doesn't accept a lot of things without a factual basis mostly because they haven't bothered to question every assumption they make yet.

You should be more accepting to the point of view of others. You don't have to believe it. But you should atleast listen and try to understand things from their perspective. It's easier to forgive others that way.

I do not have a resposibility to pander to a guys religion when he is insulting me for not believing in his religion.

Believing in any belief that is not based on facts does not make you better than me.

i dont have to pretend hes right when he has no proof hes right.

 

[AquaAthena]

"Forgiveness cannot be forced, but it can be invited."

It is often not enough to say, " I am sorry." It is better to say, " I am sorry, will you forgive me?"

That is what I have practiced if I have felt I have offended anyone. Few can say, "no," when you hand them the power and control to make their choice.

Forgiveness is something I do for myself, as well. I don't want to carry that toxic baggage.

Recently, a 40 year old man with a 20 year old son, was lamenting to me how sad he was, for he and his son had gotten into a hard argument a few weeks ago, and nasty things were said on both sides. The dad, felt it was his own fault, though and said, despite his repeated attempts to make up with his son, the boy still wouldn't talk to him and he didn't know what else to do. He was worried and depressed. I asked him if he had asked his son to forgive him and he said, "no," but had apologized several times. I told him sometimes that just isn't enough and suggested he ask his son for forgiveness.

The dad pulled out his cell phone; excused himself from my office, and a few minutes later, came back in, beaming all over the place; gave me a hug and said, he had just talked to the son and apologized again and asked the son if he could forgive him and the son said these words, " aww heck dad, sure.....you know I love you.

It was now, all behind them. and all three of us felt very good.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Nice story Aquathena, but it won't work in my case.

 

[AquaAthena]

Nice story Aquathena, but it won't work in my case.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that it would. I was wishing yesterday that I had put the post with mine, on forgiveness, as an example of how, asking for forgiveness, can often be that bridge one needs, to get to the solution.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Nice story Aquathena, but it won't work in my case.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that it would. I was wishing yesterday that I had put the post with mine, on forgiveness, as an example of how, asking for forgiveness, can often be that bridge one needs, to get to the solution.

If someone asked me for forgiveness, it would be very easy for me to forgive. The person I'm having a hard time forgiving would never do that. He thinks he is entitled to be abusive.

 

[BluePhantom]

Nice story Aquathena, but it won't work in my case.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that it would. I was wishing yesterday that I had put the post with mine, on forgiveness, as an example of how, asking for forgiveness, can often be that bridge one needs, to get to the solution.

If someone asked me for forgiveness, it would be very easy for me to forgive. The person I'm having a hard time forgiving would never do that. He thinks he is entitled to be abusive.

Well people who are intentionally abusive are probably not looking for forgiveness in the first place. So I would say that perhaps it simply needs to come from within you and let it be that. I certainly hope if you are in physical danger that you have removed yourself from the situation. I would also recommend spending some time with a psychologist. There's no shame in a little counselling, especially when you are in a situation like you are describing and a professional can help guide you a lot more effectively than just us. Ya' know?

 

[Avatar4321]

There is NO arrogance in decerning verifiable proof that something exsists.

You insult me for NOT following blindly like you do.

I dont accept things without a factual basis.

You did when you accepted your religion.

What makes you think anyone who believes differently then you is doing so blindly?

You accept alot of things without a factual basis. I don't think there is a human being alive who doesn't accept a lot of things without a factual basis mostly because they haven't bothered to question every assumption they make yet.

You should be more accepting to the point of view of others. You don't have to believe it. But you should atleast listen and try to understand things from their perspective. It's easier to forgive others that way.

I do not have a resposibility to pander to a guys religion when he is insulting me for not believing in his religion.

Believing in any belief that is not based on facts does not make you better than me.

i dont have to pretend hes right when he has no proof hes right.

So learning is pandering now? You don't have a responsibility to be charitable to others?

And why should a guy listen to your views when you insult him?

 

[Sky Dancer]

What makes you think anyone who believes differently then you is doing so blindly?

You accept alot of things without a factual basis. I don't think there is a human being alive who doesn't accept a lot of things without a factual basis mostly because they haven't bothered to question every assumption they make yet.

You should be more accepting to the point of view of others. You don't have to believe it. But you should atleast listen and try to understand things from their perspective. It's easier to forgive others that way.

I do not have a resposibility to pander to a guys religion when he is insulting me for not believing in his religion.

Believing in any belief that is not based on facts does not make you better than me.

i dont have to pretend hes right when he has no proof hes right.

So learning is pandering now? You don't have a responsibility to be charitable to others?

And why should a guy listen to your views when you insult him?

Here's how it works here. Someone insults TM, TM retaliates, you give TM a tough time for retaliating. Now I'm commenting on your comment.

None of it addresses the topic.

 

[Avatar4321]

I do not have a resposibility to pander to a guys religion when he is insulting me for not believing in his religion.

Believing in any belief that is not based on facts does not make you better than me.

i dont have to pretend hes right when he has no proof hes right.

So learning is pandering now? You don't have a responsibility to be charitable to others?

And why should a guy listen to your views when you insult him?

Here's how it works here. Someone insults TM, TM retaliates, you give TM a tough time for retaliating. Now I'm commenting on your comment.

None of it addresses the topic.

actually, i thought my point understanding others helps you forgive them was on topic.

 

[BluePhantom]

Here's how it works here. Someone insults TM, TM retaliates, you give TM a tough time for retaliating. Now I'm commenting on your comment.

None of it addresses the topic.

Well Sky...let's be honest with the flow of activity.... TM says something totally stupid, THEN someone insults TM, TM retaliates, and we all give TM a tough time for retaliating.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Here's how it works here. Someone insults TM, TM retaliates, you give TM a tough time for retaliating. Now I'm commenting on your comment.

None of it addresses the topic.

Well Sky...let's be honest with the flow of activity.... TM says something totally stupid, THEN someone insults TM, TM retaliates, and we all give TM a tough time for retaliating.

TM is continuously scapegoated. It's disgusting.

 

[Si modo]

Here's how it works here. Someone insults TM, TM retaliates, you give TM a tough time for retaliating. Now I'm commenting on your comment.

None of it addresses the topic.

Well Sky...let's be honest with the flow of activity.... TM says something totally stupid, THEN someone insults TM, TM retaliates, and we all give TM a tough time for retaliating.

TM is continuously scapegoated. It's disgusting.

TM is consistently beyond stupid and you're right; it is disgusting.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Well Sky...let's be honest with the flow of activity.... TM says something totally stupid, THEN someone insults TM, TM retaliates, and we all give TM a tough time for retaliating.

TM is continuously scapegoated. It's disgusting.

TM is consistently beyond stupid and you're right; it is disgusting.

Perfect example of scapegoating TM. Thanks for providing it. Scapegoating pile ons are disgusting.

 

[Si modo]

TM is continuously scapegoated. It's disgusting.

TM is consistently beyond stupid and you're right; it is disgusting.

Perfect example of scapegoating TM. Thanks for providing it. Scapegoating pile ons are disgusting.

Nah. It's not scapegoating. TM is just seriously stupid. So, we point that out to her, yet she is so seriously stupid that she cannot even comprehend how acute and chronic her stupidity is.

There's little nefarious about that.

 

[syrenn]

Here's how it works here. Someone insults TM, TM retaliates, you give TM a tough time for retaliating. Now I'm commenting on your comment.

None of it addresses the topic.

Well Sky...let's be honest with the flow of activity.... TM says something totally stupid, THEN someone insults TM, TM retaliates, and we all give TM a tough time for retaliating.

TM is continuously scapegoated. It's disgusting.

TM gets what she gives out.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Well Sky...let's be honest with the flow of activity.... TM says something totally stupid, THEN someone insults TM, TM retaliates, and we all give TM a tough time for retaliating.

TM is continuously scapegoated. It's disgusting.

TM gets what she gives out.

Oh c'mon. You guys are into TM pile ons and you know it.

 

[Si modo]

I just returned from a weekend workshop. We talked about gratitude and forgiveness. I have some new insights about forgiveness and look forward to discussing them with you soon.


Please share your thoughts and feelings about the topic.

Forgiveness cannot be forced, but it can be invited. What's interesting is to examine what isn't willing to forgive inside and to take care of those places.

After going through this thread, it seems pretty clear that you need to feel hurt. You could examine your need to feel hurt.

Yet, that still does not preclude you from freeing yourself from that hurt.

It's rather addictive in nature.

 

[Avatar4321]

Well Sky...let's be honest with the flow of activity.... TM says something totally stupid, THEN someone insults TM, TM retaliates, and we all give TM a tough time for retaliating.

TM is continuously scapegoated. It's disgusting.

TM gets what she gives out.

Actually, i think alot of people are incredibly generous to her.