? For liberals: If taxes go up on rich, how will you feel about consequences?

[Bfgrn]

what is equally funny is the way republicans on here are running away from the FACT that the expiration of the ill advised Bush tax cuts were planned and written directly into the legislation by republicans. Why can't they just man up and accept responsibility for that?

You're saying they should have foreseen the economy circling the bowl the way it is now?

Paul O'Neill, Bush's first Treasury Secretary foresaw it. Even Bush himself questioned the second round of tax cuts, but the 'marionette in chief' couldn't convince the puppeteers...

Paul O'Neill, George Bush's first Treasury Secretary

The president had promised to cut taxes, and he did. Within six months of taking office, he pushed a trillion dollars worth of tax cuts through Congress. But O'Neill thought it should have been the end. After 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan, the budget deficit was growing. So at a meeting with the vice president after the mid-term elections in 2002, Suskind writes that O'Neill argued against a second round of tax cuts.

“Cheney, at this moment, shows his hand,” says Suskind. “He says, ‘You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. We won the mid-term elections, this is our due.’ … O'Neill is speechless.”

”It was not just about not wanting the tax cut. It was about how to use the nation's resources to improve the condition of our society,” says O’Neill. “And I thought the weight of working on Social Security and fundamental tax reform was a lot more important than a tax reduction.”

Did he think it was irresponsible? “Well, it's for sure not what I would have done,” says O’Neill.

The former treasury secretary accuses Vice President Dick Cheney of not being an honest broker, but, with a handful of others, part of "a praetorian guard that encircled the president" to block out contrary views. "This is the way Dick likes it," says O’Neill.


“It's a huge meeting. You got Dick Cheney from the, you know, secure location on the video. The President is there,” says Suskind, who was given a nearly verbatim transcript by someone who attended the meeting.

He says everyone expected Mr. Bush to rubber stamp the plan under discussion: a big new tax cut. But, according to Suskind, the president was perhaps having second thoughts about cutting taxes again, and was uncharacteristically engaged.

“He asks, ‘Haven't we already given money to rich people? This second tax cut's gonna do it again,’” says Suskind.

“He says, ‘Didn’t we already, why are we doing it again?’ Now, his advisers, they say, ‘Well Mr. President, the upper class, they're the entrepreneurs. That's the standard response.’ And the president kind of goes, ‘OK.’ That's their response. And then, he comes back to it again. ‘Well, shouldn't we be giving money to the middle, won't people be able to say, ‘You did it once, and then you did it twice, and what was it good for?’"

But according to the transcript, White House political advisor Karl Rove jumped in.

“Karl Rove is saying to the president, a kind of mantra. ‘Stick to principle. Stick to principle.’ He says it over and over again,” says Suskind. “Don’t waver.”

In the end, the president didn't. And nine days after that meeting in which O'Neill made it clear he could not publicly support another tax cut, the vice president called and asked him to resign.

With the deficit now climbing towards $400 billion, O'Neill maintains he was in the right.

 

[daveman]

what is equally funny is the way republicans on here are running away from the FACT that the expiration of the ill advised Bush tax cuts were planned and written directly into the legislation by republicans. Why can't they just man up and accept responsibility for that?

You're saying they should have foreseen the economy circling the bowl the way it is now?

yeah... that is why they used reconciliation to pass those idiotic tax cuts... becasue they KNEW they were unsustainable given the deficit projections. moron.

So do you send extra money to the government? That would be the responsible action in this time of high deficits.

 

[daveman]

Not one word about spending cuts,trying to blame a tax cut for everyone as a bad thing that has crippled the economy is just well fucking stupid!!

Both parties are to blame for our deficits,the massive entitlement programs put forth years ago make up a large portion of that. we can't tax our way out,we must cut spending.

Indeed.

 

[daveman]

...says Suskind, who was given a nearly verbatim transcript by someone who attended the meeting.

 

[maineman]

You're saying they should have foreseen the economy circling the bowl the way it is now?

yeah... that is why they used reconciliation to pass those idiotic tax cuts... becasue they KNEW they were unsustainable given the deficit projections. moron.

So do you send extra money to the government? That would be the responsible action in this time of high deficits.

in this time of high deficits, it would make sense to allow the republican PLANNED expiration of the their tax cuts to proceed as they planned it. indeed. why are you not voting out of office your republican legislators who approved the expiration of those tax cuts if you are so dead set against them?

 

[Bfgrn]

...says Suskind, who was given a nearly verbatim transcript by someone who attended the meeting.

Paul O'Neill provided the narrative, Suskind wrote the book. This in common practice. Suskind is a respected author. But, what you are saying is you decide to dismiss it...

Everyone is just wrong about your man crush Bush, even his own Treasury Secretary.

Is it hard to breathe with your head so far up your ass???

 

[NYcarbineer]

A balanced budget is based on revenues equaling spending. If you reduce revenues and don't reduce spending, your budget goes into deficit.

If you support extending the tax cuts without accompanying spending cuts, you are supporting increasing the deficit. It is NOT any more complicated than that.

 

[daveman]

yeah... that is why they used reconciliation to pass those idiotic tax cuts... becasue they KNEW they were unsustainable given the deficit projections. moron.

So do you send extra money to the government? That would be the responsible action in this time of high deficits.

in this time of high deficits, it would make sense to allow the republican PLANNED expiration of the their tax cuts to proceed as they planned it. indeed. why are you not voting out of office your republican legislators who approved the expiration of those tax cuts if you are so dead set against them?

Yeah, I thought not. You're only generous with other people's money.

 

[daveman]

...says Suskind, who was given a nearly verbatim transcript by someone who attended the meeting.

Paul O'Neill provided the narrative, Suskind wrote the book. This in common practice. Suskind is a respected author. But, what you are saying is you decide to dismiss it...

Everyone is just wrong about your man crush Bush, even his own Treasury Secretary.

Is it hard to breathe with your head so far up your ass???

I've had plenty of criticism for Bush. Your own closed mind insists that everyone who doesn't call him Satan 24/7 must worship him.

 

[daveman]

A balanced budget is based on revenues equaling spending. If you reduce revenues and don't reduce spending, your budget goes into deficit.

If you support extending the tax cuts without accompanying spending cuts, you are supporting increasing the deficit. It is NOT any more complicated than that.

You're right. I support cutting spending. Do you? I mean, other than just defense?

 

[Bfgrn]

Paul O'Neill provided the narrative, Suskind wrote the book. This in common practice. Suskind is a respected author. But, what you are saying is you decide to dismiss it...

Everyone is just wrong about your man crush Bush, even his own Treasury Secretary.

Is it hard to breathe with your head so far up your ass???

I've had plenty of criticism for Bush. Your own closed mind insists that everyone who doesn't call him Satan 24/7 must worship him.

OK, let's hear it? Let me guess, Bush is a RINO...

 

[maineman]

So do you send extra money to the government? That would be the responsible action in this time of high deficits.

in this time of high deficits, it would make sense to allow the republican PLANNED expiration of the their tax cuts to proceed as they planned it. indeed. why are you not voting out of office your republican legislators who approved the expiration of those tax cuts if you are so dead set against them?

Yeah, I thought not. You're only generous with other people's money.

I send every penny I am required to send to the government and I am extremely generous with the money that I am not required to send. I tithe and I give generously to many charities. But quit making this about MY generosity. Quit running away from the FACT that YOUR party planned for this tax cut to expire because they KNEW what extending it would do to the deficit. Be a man and own up to that. Be a man and admit that this was planned by YOUR party a decade ago.

 

[georgephillip]

"One percent of the nation owns a third of the wealth. The rest of the wealth is distributed in such a way as to turn those in the 99 percent against one another: small property owners against the property-less, black against white, native-born against foreign-born, intellectuals and professionals against the uneducated and unskilled.

"These groups have resented one another and warred against one another with such vehemence and violence as to obscure their common position as sharers of leftovers in a very wealthy country."

Revolt of the Guards

And this part of the People's History won't change as long as voters limit their "choice" to Republican OR Democrat.

Both major parties serve Wall Street, the Pentagon, and the richest 1% of US voters first and foremost.

NOTHING changes until Republicans AND Democrats are FLUSHED from US History.

 

[daveman]

Paul O'Neill provided the narrative, Suskind wrote the book. This in common practice. Suskind is a respected author. But, what you are saying is you decide to dismiss it...

Everyone is just wrong about your man crush Bush, even his own Treasury Secretary.

Is it hard to breathe with your head so far up your ass???

I've had plenty of criticism for Bush. Your own closed mind insists that everyone who doesn't call him Satan 24/7 must worship him.

OK, let's hear it? Let me guess, Bush is a RINO...

Amnesty. Not vetoing Democrat horsehsit nearly often enough.

 

[daveman]

in this time of high deficits, it would make sense to allow the republican PLANNED expiration of the their tax cuts to proceed as they planned it. indeed. why are you not voting out of office your republican legislators who approved the expiration of those tax cuts if you are so dead set against them?

Yeah, I thought not. You're only generous with other people's money.

I send every penny I am required to send to the government and I am extremely generous with the money that I am not required to send. I tithe and I give generously to many charities.

Good for you. Sincerely. But tithing and charities don't do anything about the deficit. If you were truly concerned about it, you would send extra money.

But quit making this about MY generosity.

Why? You want to be generous with other people's money. What makes you out of bounds?

Quit running away from the FACT that YOUR party planned for this tax cut to expire because they KNEW what extending it would do to the deficit. Be a man and own up to that. Be a man and admit that this was planned by YOUR party a decade ago.

Did it ever occur to you that they thought the economy was going to have sufficiently improved by now that it could handle the extra tax burden without undue stress? That they didn't know Bush was going to jack up the deficit, and Obama even worse?

No, I bet it didn't. You just want to think...sorry, feel...that the GOP did this malevolently. Your bigotry against conservatives will allow no less.

 

[maineman]

Yeah, I thought not. You're only generous with other people's money.

I send every penny I am required to send to the government and I am extremely generous with the money that I am not required to send. I tithe and I give generously to many charities.

Good for you. Sincerely. But tithing and charities don't do anything about the deficit. If you were truly concerned about it, you would send extra money.

But quit making this about MY generosity.

Why? You want to be generous with other people's money. What makes you out of bounds?

Quit running away from the FACT that YOUR party planned for this tax cut to expire because they KNEW what extending it would do to the deficit. Be a man and own up to that. Be a man and admit that this was planned by YOUR party a decade ago.

Did it ever occur to you that they thought the economy was going to have sufficiently improved by now that it could handle the extra tax burden without undue stress? That they didn't know Bush was going to jack up the deficit, and Obama even worse?

No, I bet it didn't. You just want to think...sorry, feel...that the GOP did this malevolently. Your bigotry against conservatives will allow no less.

so... I guess that you are not concerned about the deficit either. And I really think you should go back and read up on how the republicans used that currently onerous procedure called reconciliation to pass the Bush tax cuts and what they had to do to them in order to get them to pass in that manner. Let me know when you're up to speed on that.

 

[daveman]

"One percent of the nation owns a third of the wealth. The rest of the wealth is distributed in such a way as to turn those in the 99 percent against one another: small property owners against the property-less, black against white, native-born against foreign-born, intellectuals and professionals against the uneducated and unskilled.

"These groups have resented one another and warred against one another with such vehemence and violence as to obscure their common position as sharers of leftovers in a very wealthy country."

Revolt of the Guards

And this part of the People's History won't change as long as voters limit their "choice" to Republican OR Democrat.

Both major parties serve Wall Street, the Pentagon, and the richest 1% of US voters first and foremost.

NOTHING changes until Republicans AND Democrats are FLUSHED from US History.

Tell them, Comrade! Post on the internet for the glorious Revolution...and galoshes for all!

 

[daveman]

so... I guess that you are not concerned about the deficit either. And I really think you should go back and read up on how the republicans used that currently onerous procedure called reconciliation to pass the Bush tax cuts and what they had to do to them in order to get them to pass in that manner. Let me know when you're up to speed on that.

Yes, I'm concerned about the deficit. Serious cuts need to be made in spending. But the Democrats are never going to go along with cutting their vote-buying schemes.

And any time you'd like to be consistent in your criticism of procedural changes to ram through agendas, that'd be great.

 

[maineman]

so... I guess that you are not concerned about the deficit either. And I really think you should go back and read up on how the republicans used that currently onerous procedure called reconciliation to pass the Bush tax cuts and what they had to do to them in order to get them to pass in that manner. Let me know when you're up to speed on that.

Yes, I'm concerned about the deficit. Serious cuts need to be made in spending. But the Democrats are never going to go along with cutting their vote-buying schemes.

And any time you'd like to be consistent in your criticism of procedural changes to ram through agendas, that'd be great.

look. I have never criticized the republican's use of reconciliation to pass Bush's tax cuts. I only note that they did in fact use that procedural rule... the process has a rule that is maybe twenty-five years old called the Byrd rule that requires that any bill passed by the budget reconciliation process could NOT impact government revenues beyond ten years... and THAT is why this tax cut is expiring. Republicans were willing to get tax cuts for the wealthy even when they knew they HAD to make them go away in ten years. It had nothing to do with what their crystal balls had to say about the future of the american economy. It had to do with them only having 51 votes. I think it is hilarious that the GOP was so upset that Obama considered using reconciliation to get helath care for americans, but they were perfectly willing to use reconciliation to get tax cuts for millionaires that ballooned the deficit.

 

[georgephillip]

"One percent of the nation owns a third of the wealth. The rest of the wealth is distributed in such a way as to turn those in the 99 percent against one another: small property owners against the property-less, black against white, native-born against foreign-born, intellectuals and professionals against the uneducated and unskilled.

"These groups have resented one another and warred against one another with such vehemence and violence as to obscure their common position as sharers of leftovers in a very wealthy country."

Revolt of the Guards

And this part of the People's History won't change as long as voters limit their "choice" to Republican OR Democrat.

Both major parties serve Wall Street, the Pentagon, and the richest 1% of US voters first and foremost.

NOTHING changes until Republicans AND Democrats are FLUSHED from US History.

Tell them, Comrade! Post on the internet for the glorious Revolution...and galoshes for all!

If the median income of the 118 million Americans who earn enough to pay income taxes is about $50,000/year, and the richest 10 thousand Americans average $50,000,000/year and pay just over 20% of their income in taxes, do you see how foot-ware, not to mention galoshes, might be a luxury for many workers, Comrade?

America is 234 Years Old