Flat Tax is a fraud and Steve Forbes knows this...

[OohPooPahDoo]

Shit, please.

You're forgetting a major point. Most of those Wallyworld employees get over 20% withheld unless they take more than a standard deduction. They never see that cash as it's whisked away to earn interest for the federal government and be spent. They get some to all or MORE back when they pay taxes.

If you did a flat tax and did witholding with zero deductions possible it's very simple. Would see your gross income, minus 10% (if that's the tax rate) and the rest is yours. No second Christmas. No complicated tax forms. It's done. It's relatively painless outside of getting payola at the end of the year.

The dehumanization is reserved for people gaming the system, getting more back than they put in.

10% on your gross income would be a tax increase for most Americans of average or below average income.

Uhhh, newsflash. Witholding without exemptions takes about 20-25% of your paycheck. Just do the math. Most time's you keep only 80% unless you make a lot... then it gradually goes up. Work overtime and see it REALLY jump.

The amount withheld depends on how big your paycheck is and it is exactly equal to the amount you would pay in federal income tax if you made money at that rate all year.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf

If they kept ONLY a flat 10% and didn't give it back regardless of what I make, I come out +10% a paycheck better making it worth my while to work more.

See, I knew some guys who swore by never working more than 20 hours of overtime because no matter what you did after that, you kept so little of your own money.

Of course, once again, "who're you gonna believe? Me or your damn lying eyes?" People keep asking me that and then wonder why I stare or laugh at them with incredulity.

Those guys you knew were fuckin' retards then. You get a 50% increase on your hourly wage with OT the tax brackets don't increase fast enough for you not to make a higher wage in overtime.

Example:
Make $10 in the 0% bracket - bring home $10.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 10% bracket - bring home $13.50 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 10% bracket - bring home $9.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 15% bracket - bring home $12.75 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 15% bracket - bring home $8.50 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 25% bracket - bring home $11.25 before FICA.

In each case you bring home more money per hour working overtime in the higher bracket than regular time in the lower - FICA rates are regressive and hence would do nothing to change that fact.


Not to mention there's no way of telling how well the overtime/regular pay divide lines up with the tax bracket cutoff until the end of the year, after you've already done all your work.


Looks like you and your guys are confused about what tax returns are for. If you make $10,000 in one pay period your earning will be withheld in that pay period as if you make $10,000 every pay period for the whole year. If it turns out most pay periods you make $5,000 and that was just an exceptional week, the difference between withholding and the tax rate you actually pay gets refunded to you at the end of the year. Or do your guys not file tax returns?

 

[bripat9643]

There's no point in having a bunch of useless ticks who produce nothing for customers. The money they spend comes out of the hides of the rich and the middle class. How does a business benefit selling products to ticks when the money they're spending came from the people who own the business?

The 50% who don't pay taxes are the folks that stock the shelves and ring up your order when you buy foreign goods at Wal-Mart. De-humanizing then by calling them "ticks" doesn't change the fact that the customer can't really stock the shelves or unload the trucks themselves and in most cases, wouldn't want to anyway.

I'm calling people who don't work but only collect checks from the government "ticks," dipshit. People who work already have money to spend. They are already customers without a government handout.

As far as the middle class, they tend to benefit from the tax structure when they need it most. I for one - about to become a father - will see numerous tax benefits in the form of credits and deductions. But thats fair because I've had no children for nearly 15 years of my working life and have paid taxes to support those programs for others.

What you mean is that the government won't punish you as much as it has been in the past. That's your idea of a "benefit." It's like calling not being mugged a "gift." "Fair" would be if the government didn't make exceptions of any kind in the first place.

 

[bripat9643]

Like it has been said, a flat tax does nothing but hurt the poor even further while helping the rich even more. Not surprising this would be a republican idea supported by the uneducated drones.

Abolishing the income tax helps everyone.

Have fun paying for your big giant army without the income tax.

That would be easy. However, we couldn't pay for SS. Medicare or the vast welfare state that you defend.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Flat Tax is a fraud and Steve Forbes knows this...

Hell....the last time "Sweet" Stevie Forbes ran for President, he tried to sell his version o' flat-tax.

Part of his plan was to eliminate all taxes on capital-gains. The only income that would be taxed would be direct-income; i.e. you actually worked for your income.​

 

[frazzledgear]

The Republicans’ push for a flat tax masks what’s really going on.

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions. They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Simple fairness requires three things: More tax brackets at the top, higher rates in each bracket, and the treatment of all sources of income (capital gains included) exactly the same.

Not only fairness demands it, but also fiscal prudence. A truly progressive tax would bring in tens of billions of dollars a year from the people at the top who are in the best position to afford it.

Regressives are pushing the flat tax as a smokescreen. They’d rather not have anyone talk about the unfairness and fiscal absurdity of the current system.

Rather than merely oppose the flat tax, sensible people should push for a truly progressive tax – starting with a top rate of 70 percent on that portion of anyone’s income exceeding $5 million, from whatever source.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

So you object to income disparity? Really? When you were in school did you insist all grades should be identical too no matter how hard you worked compared to someone else? Were you willing to give up an A and take a C so someone who didn't bother to show up and didn't study and flunked every test could also get a C? Or were you the dude who got the F but thought you should have gotten a C for no reason but the fact you signed up for the class? Oh but you think if someone shows up for the job it just isn't FAIR if he isn't paid as much as the guy who does a tad more than just show up? Income disparity isn't based on EVIL you moron. You do realize liberalism is in reality a demand people stop aiming any higher than mediocre -and when mediocre is the best you hope for, it's rarely achieved. Do any of you idiot liberals EVER study history? EVER bothered to figure out the fatal flaw in liberalism, leftwing policies and leftwing extremism and why they increase human misery far more than they benefit the species? I've gotten so I realize liberals actually hate our species and liberalism is their hatred in action. The class
envy is the foundation principle of liberalism -hatred of what others have worked to earn and create for themselves while pretending they could have only succeeded by stealing it from you, right?

I hate to break the news to you by injecting REALITY here. But when people are deprived of the benefit of having busted their asses to earn that money -they stop working that hard since they get no benefit by doing so. Since their average work week is 70 hours -THEY can afford to cut back their hours. Of course that has never once stopped politicians from pretending people will actually continue busting their asses for no fucking reason -and then base their spending sprees on that amount. But when it disappears, do you have ANY clue whose money they come after next? ROFLMAO! And where do you assholes get off acting like that money is rightfully government's anyway? Or anyone else's but the person who worked to earn it? If you want to pretend YOU are a government owned slave -have at it. But asshole, I AM NOT. If I do the work, then it is MY MONEY first. ALWAYS. Not yours and sure as hell not government's. Class warfare ALWAYS ends up hurting those on the bottom the most -and as a stupid liberal immune to common sense and critical thinking skills, you refuse to believe it. Liberals have NO understanding of human nature which is why their policies always fail -they are based on what they WISH was human nature instead of what IS human nature -and choosing policies that exploit what it really is instead of pretending a handful of leftwing kook extremists can re-make the entire species to be what they THINK would be better. It is why "re-education camps" are a leftwing invention -they are convinced that given enough time and as many stacks of dead as needed, they can remake the species. Or at least punish them for not faking it convincingly enough.

Personally I've come to realize that people who pay no income tax at all -which is about half -have no RIGHT to decide how much I should be paying! NONE. If it doesn't impact YOUR wallet too -then get your fucking parasitic meathooks out of MINE! Even taking 40% of the fruits of someone's labor is OBSCENE. And maybe you didn't notice, but our government didn't start raking in the big bucks -until they dropped the confiscatory tax rates that discouraged and punished hard work by depriving a person of the benefit of having done so. That's right bubba -our government made MORE money with a LOWER tax rate. Again -for a REASON. And lo and behold -it is also when the standard of living for those at the BOTTOM sharply rose too -and why our poor today have the standard of living of the middle class using the global scale of poverty. Again -FOR A REASON.

Liberals hate the fact we aren't all identical clones and instead of encouraging others to emulate those at the top, they want those at the top destroyed -while insisting doing so will somehow benefit us all. Which is a monstrous, vicious and brutally inhumane lie. Liberals would rather see the majority suffering "equally" on the bottom than have as few as possible on the bottom -which is why they will not only insist those at the top must be deprived of the benefit of their fruits of their LABOR, they also believe it is better to reward and encourage people to believe it is best to exist as a parasite on the system -and then start bitching about the fact those at the top aren't being bled dry fast enough. Oh sure -and then let's all pretend if we just confiscate it from those who earned it, not only will they continue busting their asses to keep on earning it even though deprived of the benefit of doing so and the fruits of their labor confiscated -let's all pretend it will somehow make YOU richer for not doing a fucking thing but wallowing in useless envy. I'd rather lose a limb than be a liberal.

Do you also object to beauty disparity? Intelligence disparity? How about creativity disparity? And height -doesn't it just suck that we aren't all identical heights and cookie cutter clones of each other? Innovation disparity a real bug up your ass too? And common sense disparity -that one must surely bug you because it bugs the hell out of me that you don't have any. I want MORE people to earn millions -you want fewer. On the grounds it just ain't FAIR, right bubba?

The REAL goal of liberals is to re-make our entire species to be an ant colony. That is in reality their vision of utopia. That's it. The entire species living as an ant colony. Except the only thing fit to live in one is an ant. For a reason. I know this is naive on my part -but really, just see if you can't scrape up enough critical thinking skills to figure out why that is.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

There's no point in having a bunch of useless ticks who produce nothing for customers. The money they spend comes out of the hides of the rich and the middle class. How does a business benefit selling products to ticks when the money they're spending came from the people who own the business?

The 50% who don't pay taxes are the folks that stock the shelves and ring up your order when you buy foreign goods at Wal-Mart. De-humanizing then by calling them "ticks" doesn't change the fact that the customer can't really stock the shelves or unload the trucks themselves and in most cases, wouldn't want to anyway.

I'm calling people who don't work but only collect checks from the government "ticks," dipshit. People who work already have money to spend. They are already customers without a government handout.

Then your response to my statement that "a dollar spent in federal taxes is a lot more likely to wind up right back in the U.S. economy than a dollar spent at Wal-Mart," makes very little sense, as most people who receive a form of government aid work and collect paychecks, and hence according to you, not "ticks".

As far as the middle class, they tend to benefit from the tax structure when they need it most. I for one - about to become a father - will see numerous tax benefits in the form of credits and deductions. But thats fair because I've had no children for nearly 15 years of my working life and have paid taxes to support those programs for others.

What you mean is that the government won't punish you as much as it has been in the past. That's your idea of a "benefit." It's like calling not being mugged a "gift." "Fair" would be if the government didn't make exceptions of any kind in the first place.

I don't consider paying taxes to be a form of "punishment" anymore than registering for selective service or following the speed limit is a form of "punishment".

 

[Big Fitz]

10% on your gross income would be a tax increase for most Americans of average or below average income.

Uhhh, newsflash. Witholding without exemptions takes about 20-25% of your paycheck. Just do the math. Most time's you keep only 80% unless you make a lot... then it gradually goes up. Work overtime and see it REALLY jump.

The amount withheld depends on how big your paycheck is and it is exactly equal to the amount you would pay in federal income tax if you made money at that rate all year.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf

If they kept ONLY a flat 10% and didn't give it back regardless of what I make, I come out +10% a paycheck better making it worth my while to work more.

See, I knew some guys who swore by never working more than 20 hours of overtime because no matter what you did after that, you kept so little of your own money.

Of course, once again, "who're you gonna believe? Me or your damn lying eyes?" People keep asking me that and then wonder why I stare or laugh at them with incredulity.

Those guys you knew were fuckin' retards then. You get a 50% increase on your hourly wage with OT the tax brackets don't increase fast enough for you not to make a higher wage in overtime.

Example:
Make $10 in the 0% bracket - bring home $10.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 10% bracket - bring home $13.50 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 10% bracket - bring home $9.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 15% bracket - bring home $12.75 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 15% bracket - bring home $8.50 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 25% bracket - bring home $11.25 before FICA.

In each case you bring home more money per hour working overtime in the higher bracket than regular time in the lower - FICA rates are regressive and hence would do nothing to change that fact.


Not to mention there's no way of telling how well the overtime/regular pay divide lines up with the tax bracket cutoff until the end of the year, after you've already done all your work.


Looks like you and your guys are confused about what tax returns are for. If you make $10,000 in one pay period your earning will be withheld in that pay period as if you make $10,000 every pay period for the whole year. If it turns out most pay periods you make $5,000 and that was just an exceptional week, the difference between withholding and the tax rate you actually pay gets refunded to you at the end of the year. Or do your guys not file tax returns?

Nice theory, but the actual use doesn't seem to match.

 

[Wiseacre]

Am I correct in assuming that Merrill and others on the left would like to raise the top rate to 70%, which does not include state and local and sales taxes? And would you include capital gains, or tax it differently? And you actually think you can do this with no adverse impact to the US economy?

 

[Big Fitz]

Am I correct in assuming that Merrill and others on the left would like to raise the top rate to 70%, which does not include state and local and sales taxes? And would you include capital gains, or tax it differently? And you actually think you can do this with no adverse impact to the US economy?

If they could be exempted, they'd be satisfied with 99%.

 

[Wiseacre]

Am I correct in assuming that Merrill and others on the left would like to raise the top rate to 70%, which does not include state and local and sales taxes? And would you include capital gains, or tax it differently? And you actually think you can do this with no adverse impact to the US economy?

If they could be exempted, they'd be satisfied with 99%.

It boggles the mind that anyone can seriously propose such nonsense.

 

[frazzledgear]

Am I correct in assuming that Merrill and others on the left would like to raise the top rate to 70%, which does not include state and local and sales taxes? And would you include capital gains, or tax it differently? And you actually think you can do this with no adverse impact to the US economy?

Oh yeah -and that is ignoring the fact that capital gains taxes are paid AFTER the company already paid 35% on its profits, making the true tax rate closer to 45%. Except government doesn't give the money back if someone loses their investment -it only pretends it has a right to nearly half if someone SUCCESSFULLY invests their money. You lose it and you are on your own!

THIS is the mindset of the left: they believe the real problem in this country is that there are rich people. And not enough on welfare and foodstamps.

If you believe taxing the rich into middle class or lower will provide greater benefits than a system that encourages other to aspire to succeed as well -by all means vote for Obama who also believes the root of all our problems is the fact we have rich people in this country. Amazing they SUDDENLY discovered the cause of all our woes (that were actually the result of leftwing policies put into action) -goes right back to the Constitution which created a system written by people who believed we as individuals have the inherent right to make of our life what we will and NOT what government will. The left believes that is just NOT FAIR and that your life should be what GOVERNMENT decides it will be instead -and if the left is in charge, they decide YOU cannot be allowed to enjoy the fruits of YOUR labor if you busted your ass and earned whatever THEY decide is "too much". That's right, the left is once again insisting all our problems are because - we have rich people in this country. And they want government to DO something about that, teach them a lesson that they can't get away with being successful in THIS country without those insisting THEY have a greater claim to the fruits of YOUR labor than YOU DO! How dare they think they can get away with being successful, right? Which is why the left never tires of that same old communist drumbeat insisting that even though the rich pay the bulk of income taxes and the bottom half pay none - unless the rich are hit with punitive and confiscatory tax rates, they will insist the rich still don't pay their "fair share".

MY question is who the hell do liberals think they are to decide what is "fair"? Who tore up the Constitution and made them dictators? Liberals push the policies they do because they WANT more people on the bottom -and they WANT those on the bottom HATING fellow citizens for being SUCCESSFUL. They WANT people to believe their real "enemy" is FELLOW CITIZENS -they want those on the bottom to believe only THEY own this country. Even though those at the top are footing the bills. They WANT those on the bottom to believe their real role is to exist as parasites while viewing the hosts they want to bleed dry as the "enemy". Liberalism WANTS citizens pitted against each other, liberals WANT dissension, discord, WANT people wallowing in useless envy for what someone else busted his ass to earn, WANT people believing they are more entitled to the fruits of the labor of someone else than that person is, They WANT more people on government handouts, they WANT more UNSUCCESSFUL people in the country and far fewer successful ones.

And they do because liberals believe these are the natural constituency of the left and thereby the MORE at the bottom we have, the more who can be manipulated into voting for them and the more POWER they get. This is all about trying to increase the POWER of the left -who actually despise our species which is why they push the misery increasing policies of class warfare that has ALWAYS resulted in harming those on the bottom the most. They know it, they don't give a shit -because this is all about POWER.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Flat Tax is a fraud and Steve Forbes knows this...

Hell....the last time "Sweet" Stevie Forbes ran for President, he tried to sell his version o' flat-tax.

Part of his plan was to eliminate all taxes on capital-gains. The only income that would be taxed would be direct-income; i.e. you actually worked for your income.​

The Forbes plan back then also blew a huge hole in the budget, and, big surprise, people like Forbes himself would have been the biggest beneficiaries of his plan.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Shit, please.

You're forgetting a major point. Most of those Wallyworld employees get over 20% withheld unless they take more than a standard deduction. They never see that cash as it's whisked away to earn interest for the federal government and be spent. They get some to all or MORE back when they pay taxes.

If you did a flat tax and did witholding with zero deductions possible it's very simple. Would see your gross income, minus 10% (if that's the tax rate) and the rest is yours. No second Christmas. No complicated tax forms. It's done. It's relatively painless outside of getting payola at the end of the year.

The dehumanization is reserved for people gaming the system, getting more back than they put in.

10% on your gross income would be a tax increase for most Americans of average or below average income.

Uhhh, newsflash. Witholding without exemptions takes about 20-25% of your paycheck. Just do the math. Most time's you keep only 80% unless you make a lot... then it gradually goes up. Work overtime and see it REALLY jump.

If they kept ONLY a flat 10% and didn't give it back regardless of what I make, I come out +10% a paycheck better making it worth my while to work more.

See, I knew some guys who swore by never working more than 20 hours of overtime because no matter what you did after that, you kept so little of your own money.

Of course, once again, "who're you gonna believe? Me or your damn lying eyes?" People keep asking me that and then wonder why I stare or laugh at them with incredulity.

Believe this. I made about 50,000 last year and paid about 5,000 in federal income taxes. I have no dependents, no deductions/exemptions of any consequence.

That's 10%. Anyone with a kid or 2 or 3 would pay even less. So you're full of shit.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Uhhh, newsflash. Witholding without exemptions takes about 20-25% of your paycheck. Just do the math. Most time's you keep only 80% unless you make a lot... then it gradually goes up. Work overtime and see it REALLY jump.

The amount withheld depends on how big your paycheck is and it is exactly equal to the amount you would pay in federal income tax if you made money at that rate all year.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf

If they kept ONLY a flat 10% and didn't give it back regardless of what I make, I come out +10% a paycheck better making it worth my while to work more.

See, I knew some guys who swore by never working more than 20 hours of overtime because no matter what you did after that, you kept so little of your own money.

Of course, once again, "who're you gonna believe? Me or your damn lying eyes?" People keep asking me that and then wonder why I stare or laugh at them with incredulity.

Those guys you knew were fuckin' retards then. You get a 50% increase on your hourly wage with OT the tax brackets don't increase fast enough for you not to make a higher wage in overtime.

Example:
Make $10 in the 0% bracket - bring home $10.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 10% bracket - bring home $13.50 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 10% bracket - bring home $9.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 15% bracket - bring home $12.75 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 15% bracket - bring home $8.50 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 25% bracket - bring home $11.25 before FICA.

In each case you bring home more money per hour working overtime in the higher bracket than regular time in the lower - FICA rates are regressive and hence would do nothing to change that fact.


Not to mention there's no way of telling how well the overtime/regular pay divide lines up with the tax bracket cutoff until the end of the year, after you've already done all your work.


Looks like you and your guys are confused about what tax returns are for. If you make $10,000 in one pay period your earning will be withheld in that pay period as if you make $10,000 every pay period for the whole year. If it turns out most pay periods you make $5,000 and that was just an exceptional week, the difference between withholding and the tax rate you actually pay gets refunded to you at the end of the year. Or do your guys not file tax returns?

Nice theory, but the actual use doesn't seem to match.

LOL! Right, its just a "theory" that the IRS withholds taxes according to the IRS withholding tables.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf

Lord you are dumb.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Am I correct in assuming that Merrill and others on the left would like to raise the top rate to 70%, which does not include state and local and sales taxes? And would you include capital gains, or tax it differently? And you actually think you can do this with no adverse impact to the US economy?

"others on the left"? Maybe Merrill speaks only for Merrill, ever consider that?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Am I correct in assuming that Merrill and others on the left would like to raise the top rate to 70%, which does not include state and local and sales taxes? And would you include capital gains, or tax it differently? And you actually think you can do this with no adverse impact to the US economy?

Oh yeah -and that is ignoring the fact that capital gains taxes are paid AFTER the company already paid 35% on its profits, making the true tax rate closer to 45%.

Nobody is ignoring that fact that corporate taxes exist.

If corporations are to be treated like people under the law then they ought to be taxed like people under the law. There are numerous pass through entities that people can set up to avoid that, in exchange for a greater burden of personal liability. Nobody is forced to do business as a traditional corporation, there are advantages and disadvantages to each possible business entity choice and the owners ultimately decide which is best.

Its absurd to suggest folks should be allowed to evade liability by setting up a separate corporate entity and at the same time that corporate entity pays no taxes of its own.

Not to mention the capital gains tax isn't just applied to corporate stock. The special rate applies to virtually any security held for a year or more regardless of whether or not the security confers equity in a tax paying corporation.

And your simple calculation isn't exactly a par comparison because corporate profits are taxed they occur yet the capital gains tax is only applied when the investor choose to sell their stock (or when, together, the investors decide to pay a dividend). If I have a stock that goes up in value 10% a year for 10 years, and its taxed 10% every year on an unrealized gain, my net profit at the end is

(1 + (0.10 * 0.9))^10 - 1 = 137%

whereas if the tax is only on assesed when profit is realized at the end of 10 years, we get

((1 + (0.10)^10 - 1)*0.9 = 143%

 

[Foxfyre]

10% on your gross income would be a tax increase for most Americans of average or below average income.

Uhhh, newsflash. Witholding without exemptions takes about 20-25% of your paycheck. Just do the math. Most time's you keep only 80% unless you make a lot... then it gradually goes up. Work overtime and see it REALLY jump.

The amount withheld depends on how big your paycheck is and it is exactly equal to the amount you would pay in federal income tax if you made money at that rate all year.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf

If they kept ONLY a flat 10% and didn't give it back regardless of what I make, I come out +10% a paycheck better making it worth my while to work more.

See, I knew some guys who swore by never working more than 20 hours of overtime because no matter what you did after that, you kept so little of your own money.

Of course, once again, "who're you gonna believe? Me or your damn lying eyes?" People keep asking me that and then wonder why I stare or laugh at them with incredulity.

Those guys you knew were fuckin' retards then. You get a 50% increase on your hourly wage with OT the tax brackets don't increase fast enough for you not to make a higher wage in overtime.

Example:
Make $10 in the 0% bracket - bring home $10.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 10% bracket - bring home $13.50 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 10% bracket - bring home $9.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 15% bracket - bring home $12.75 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 15% bracket - bring home $8.50 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 25% bracket - bring home $11.25 before FICA.

In each case you bring home more money per hour working overtime in the higher bracket than regular time in the lower - FICA rates are regressive and hence would do nothing to change that fact.


Not to mention there's no way of telling how well the overtime/regular pay divide lines up with the tax bracket cutoff until the end of the year, after you've already done all your work.


Looks like you and your guys are confused about what tax returns are for. If you make $10,000 in one pay period your earning will be withheld in that pay period as if you make $10,000 every pay period for the whole year. If it turns out most pay periods you make $5,000 and that was just an exceptional week, the difference between withholding and the tax rate you actually pay gets refunded to you at the end of the year. Or do your guys not file tax returns?

The fallacy of your example, however, under our current system, is that too many see it unfair that one guy has only $10, whether or not that is taxed, and the other guy has $13.50. So he gets subsidized housing, food stamps, allowances for his kids, and free health care, all worth more than the $3.50 he isn't making.

Not much incentive there to earn more than that $10 and become a taxpayer, huh? And when there are more 'disadvantaged' beneficiaries than there are taxes collected, what else is there to do but raise taxes or borrow against everybody's future?

So, how about the $10 guy paying his 10% in taxes leaving him with $9.00 which isn't that much of a reduction. But without guaranteed benefits for being disadvantaged, and if he has to pay taxes anyway, he might as well work harder and earn more.

(And yes, a moral society will help out the $9 guy if he is going without basic necessities, but that should be done at the local level and not at the federal level.)

 

[Big Fitz]

The amount withheld depends on how big your paycheck is and it is exactly equal to the amount you would pay in federal income tax if you made money at that rate all year.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf





Those guys you knew were fuckin' retards then. You get a 50% increase on your hourly wage with OT the tax brackets don't increase fast enough for you not to make a higher wage in overtime.

Example:
Make $10 in the 0% bracket - bring home $10.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 10% bracket - bring home $13.50 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 10% bracket - bring home $9.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 15% bracket - bring home $12.75 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 15% bracket - bring home $8.50 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 25% bracket - bring home $11.25 before FICA.

In each case you bring home more money per hour working overtime in the higher bracket than regular time in the lower - FICA rates are regressive and hence would do nothing to change that fact.


Not to mention there's no way of telling how well the overtime/regular pay divide lines up with the tax bracket cutoff until the end of the year, after you've already done all your work.


Looks like you and your guys are confused about what tax returns are for. If you make $10,000 in one pay period your earning will be withheld in that pay period as if you make $10,000 every pay period for the whole year. If it turns out most pay periods you make $5,000 and that was just an exceptional week, the difference between withholding and the tax rate you actually pay gets refunded to you at the end of the year. Or do your guys not file tax returns?

Nice theory, but the actual use doesn't seem to match.

LOL! Right, its just a "theory" that the IRS withholds taxes according to the IRS withholding tables.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf

Lord you are dumb.

Ahhhh, now I get it. You're only including income tax withholding. That's why it doesn't match what reality dishes out. There's also medicare, medicaid, social security and other voluntary withholding going on too. Taxes by another name still deprive me of my money.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Nice theory, but the actual use doesn't seem to match.

LOL! Right, its just a "theory" that the IRS withholds taxes according to the IRS withholding tables.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf

Lord you are dumb.

Ahhhh, now I get it. You're only including income tax withholding. That's why it doesn't match what reality dishes out. There's also medicare, medicaid, social security and other voluntary withholding going on too.

Your words :
"The amount withheld "

So of course I was only including withholding, that's what you were referring to.

Taxes by another name still deprive me of my money.

Bwaaahhhh.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Uhhh, newsflash. Witholding without exemptions takes about 20-25% of your paycheck. Just do the math. Most time's you keep only 80% unless you make a lot... then it gradually goes up. Work overtime and see it REALLY jump.

The amount withheld depends on how big your paycheck is and it is exactly equal to the amount you would pay in federal income tax if you made money at that rate all year.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf

If they kept ONLY a flat 10% and didn't give it back regardless of what I make, I come out +10% a paycheck better making it worth my while to work more.

See, I knew some guys who swore by never working more than 20 hours of overtime because no matter what you did after that, you kept so little of your own money.

Of course, once again, "who're you gonna believe? Me or your damn lying eyes?" People keep asking me that and then wonder why I stare or laugh at them with incredulity.

Those guys you knew were fuckin' retards then. You get a 50% increase on your hourly wage with OT the tax brackets don't increase fast enough for you not to make a higher wage in overtime.

Example:
Make $10 in the 0% bracket - bring home $10.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 10% bracket - bring home $13.50 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 10% bracket - bring home $9.00 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 15% bracket - bring home $12.75 before FICA.

Make $10 in the 15% bracket - bring home $8.50 before FICA.
Make $15 in the 25% bracket - bring home $11.25 before FICA.

In each case you bring home more money per hour working overtime in the higher bracket than regular time in the lower - FICA rates are regressive and hence would do nothing to change that fact.


Not to mention there's no way of telling how well the overtime/regular pay divide lines up with the tax bracket cutoff until the end of the year, after you've already done all your work.


Looks like you and your guys are confused about what tax returns are for. If you make $10,000 in one pay period your earning will be withheld in that pay period as if you make $10,000 every pay period for the whole year. If it turns out most pay periods you make $5,000 and that was just an exceptional week, the difference between withholding and the tax rate you actually pay gets refunded to you at the end of the year. Or do your guys not file tax returns?

The fallacy of your example, however, under our current system, is that too many see it unfair that one guy has only $10, whether or not that is taxed, and the other guy has $13.50. So he gets subsidized housing, food stamps, allowances for his kids, and free health care, all worth more than the $3.50 he isn't making.

If you think its such a great deal to get paid jack but get government benefits then quit your good job and get a shitty one, no one is stopping you. Plenty of people in shitty jobs on government benefits will be glad to take your place.

Not much incentive there to earn more than that $10 and become a taxpayer, huh?

If you honestly think that's true then I presume you earn less than $10 and don't pay taxes.

And when there are more 'disadvantaged' beneficiaries than there are taxes collected, what else is there to do but raise taxes or borrow against everybody's future?

So, how about the $10 guy paying his 10% in taxes leaving him with $9.00 which isn't that much of a reduction. But without guaranteed benefits for being disadvantaged, and if he has to pay taxes anyway, he might as well work harder and earn more.

So taxes only incentive the poor to earn more, not the rich - that makes a lot of fucking sense.

(And yes, a moral society will help out the $9 guy if he is going without basic necessities, but that should be done at the local level and not at the federal level.)

Most welfare programs are administered by state and local jurisdictions.