Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

[ding]

post # 12
supposedly a miracle is anything you want to believe according to ding

Hmmmm... the ancients thought miraculous, that which they didn’t understand...

But we do understand this. Existence spontaneously appeared out of nothing 14 billion years ago. The Laws of Nature, which existed before space and time itself, predestined intelligence to exist. That ought to rouse some suspicions.

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

The part of the universe that we are capable of observing seems to follow rules. We are far from having observed the entire universe. Nor do we even know where it starts, or ends. Or even where, and when it started, and will end...

Why would you expect our part of the universe to be an exception?

 

[ding]

post # 12
supposedly a miracle is anything you want to believe according to ding

Hmmmm... the ancients thought miraculous, that which they didn’t understand...

But we do understand this. Existence spontaneously appeared out of nothing 14 billion years ago. The Laws of Nature, which existed before space and time itself, predestined intelligence to exist. That ought to rouse some suspicions.

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

Why? Could not the rules have come into existence with the universe? Even if there were rules before the universe, why did they need to be the same rules?

And again, this entire line of reasoning may be somewhat complicated by the fact that we're talking about the creation of both space and time. Can something be said to have existed 'before' time? Time is a requirement of 'before.' It is a concept based on time. If time did not exist, before was not a valid concept.

Because there would have been no rules to govern the creation of space and time.

 

[Vastator]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make something miraculous.

But I have understanding. Space and time popped into existence out of nothing. It did so following the laws of nature which existed before space and time. Laws which predestined intelligence to arise.

All of matter and energy occupying the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom seems miraculous to me. Especially when you realize that the matter and energy that make up who you are today was present for the event.

Just because “it seems miraculous” to you, doesn’t mean that in fact was the product of a “miracle”.

 

[Montrovant]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make something miraculous.

But I have understanding. Space and time popped into existence out of nothing. It did so following the laws of nature which existed before space and time. Laws which predestined intelligence to arise.

All of matter and energy occupying the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom seems miraculous to me. Especially when you realize that the matter and energy that make up who you are today was present for the event.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that your understanding of current human theory regarding the beginning of the universe says that those things in your post are true? It's entirely possible they are not true, as human understanding is inherently limited, based both on our intellectual capacity and our observational abilities. For that matter, I imagine there are still a number of different theories regarding the beginning of the universe, as well as variations and disagreements even within different theories.

 

[Vastator]

Hmmmm... the ancients thought miraculous, that which they didn’t understand...

But we do understand this. Existence spontaneously appeared out of nothing 14 billion years ago. The Laws of Nature, which existed before space and time itself, predestined intelligence to exist. That ought to rouse some suspicions.

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

The part of the universe that we are capable of observing seems to follow rules. We are far from having observed the entire universe. Nor do we even know where it starts, or ends. Or even where, and when it started, and will end...

Why would you expect our part of the universe to be an exception?

That’s the difference. I’m not operating on reality conforming to my “expectation”; and anything that falls outside this humble expectation is deemed miraculous... I just accept that there is more to learn.

 

[ding]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make something miraculous.

But I have understanding. Space and time popped into existence out of nothing. It did so following the laws of nature which existed before space and time. Laws which predestined intelligence to arise.

All of matter and energy occupying the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom seems miraculous to me. Especially when you realize that the matter and energy that make up who you are today was present for the event.

Just because “it seems miraculous” to you, doesn’t mean that in fact was the product of a “miracle”.

I'm happy for you to see it any way you want.

 

[Montrovant]

Hmmmm... the ancients thought miraculous, that which they didn’t understand...

But we do understand this. Existence spontaneously appeared out of nothing 14 billion years ago. The Laws of Nature, which existed before space and time itself, predestined intelligence to exist. That ought to rouse some suspicions.

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

Why? Could not the rules have come into existence with the universe? Even if there were rules before the universe, why did they need to be the same rules?

And again, this entire line of reasoning may be somewhat complicated by the fact that we're talking about the creation of both space and time. Can something be said to have existed 'before' time? Time is a requirement of 'before.' It is a concept based on time. If time did not exist, before was not a valid concept.

Because there would have been no rules to govern the creation of space and time.

What do you base that on? There could have been different rules governing whatever existed, and new rules created with the creation of space and time. The existence of space and time could have caused the creation of new rules.

 

[Vastator]

Hmmmm... the ancients thought miraculous, that which they didn’t understand...

But we do understand this. Existence spontaneously appeared out of nothing 14 billion years ago. The Laws of Nature, which existed before space and time itself, predestined intelligence to exist. That ought to rouse some suspicions.

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

Why? Could not the rules have come into existence with the universe? Even if there were rules before the universe, why did they need to be the same rules?

And again, this entire line of reasoning may be somewhat complicated by the fact that we're talking about the creation of both space and time. Can something be said to have existed 'before' time? Time is a requirement of 'before.' It is a concept based on time. If time did not exist, before was not a valid concept.

Because there would have been no rules to govern the creation of space and time.

Who told you that?

 

[ding]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make something miraculous.

But I have understanding. Space and time popped into existence out of nothing. It did so following the laws of nature which existed before space and time. Laws which predestined intelligence to arise.

All of matter and energy occupying the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom seems miraculous to me. Especially when you realize that the matter and energy that make up who you are today was present for the event.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that your understanding of current human theory regarding the beginning of the universe says that those things in your post are true? It's entirely possible they are not true, as human understanding is inherently limited, based both on our intellectual capacity and our observational abilities. For that matter, I imagine there are still a number of different theories regarding the beginning of the universe, as well as variations and disagreements even within different theories.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics say otherwise.

What evidence do you possess to say otherwise?

 

[ding]

But we do understand this. Existence spontaneously appeared out of nothing 14 billion years ago. The Laws of Nature, which existed before space and time itself, predestined intelligence to exist. That ought to rouse some suspicions.

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

Why? Could not the rules have come into existence with the universe? Even if there were rules before the universe, why did they need to be the same rules?

And again, this entire line of reasoning may be somewhat complicated by the fact that we're talking about the creation of both space and time. Can something be said to have existed 'before' time? Time is a requirement of 'before.' It is a concept based on time. If time did not exist, before was not a valid concept.

Because there would have been no rules to govern the creation of space and time.

Who told you that?

Alexander Vilenkin

 

[Vastator]

How did the laws of nature exist before nature existed?

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

Why? Could not the rules have come into existence with the universe? Even if there were rules before the universe, why did they need to be the same rules?

And again, this entire line of reasoning may be somewhat complicated by the fact that we're talking about the creation of both space and time. Can something be said to have existed 'before' time? Time is a requirement of 'before.' It is a concept based on time. If time did not exist, before was not a valid concept.

Because there would have been no rules to govern the creation of space and time.

Who told you that?

Alexander Vilenkin

Where is his proof that you found so convincing?

 

[Montrovant]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make something miraculous.

But I have understanding. Space and time popped into existence out of nothing. It did so following the laws of nature which existed before space and time. Laws which predestined intelligence to arise.

All of matter and energy occupying the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom seems miraculous to me. Especially when you realize that the matter and energy that make up who you are today was present for the event.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that your understanding of current human theory regarding the beginning of the universe says that those things in your post are true? It's entirely possible they are not true, as human understanding is inherently limited, based both on our intellectual capacity and our observational abilities. For that matter, I imagine there are still a number of different theories regarding the beginning of the universe, as well as variations and disagreements even within different theories.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics say otherwise.

What evidence do you possess to say otherwise?

I'm speaking more of the lack of evidence.

 

[ding]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make something miraculous.

But I have understanding. Space and time popped into existence out of nothing. It did so following the laws of nature which existed before space and time. Laws which predestined intelligence to arise.

All of matter and energy occupying the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom seems miraculous to me. Especially when you realize that the matter and energy that make up who you are today was present for the event.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that your understanding of current human theory regarding the beginning of the universe says that those things in your post are true? It's entirely possible they are not true, as human understanding is inherently limited, based both on our intellectual capacity and our observational abilities. For that matter, I imagine there are still a number of different theories regarding the beginning of the universe, as well as variations and disagreements even within different theories.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics say otherwise.

What evidence do you possess to say otherwise?

I'm speaking more of the lack of evidence.

What evidence are you lacking?

In fact, what evidence do you possess that informs your belief?

In fact, what even is your belief?

 

[ding]

As a consequence of reality or existence.

We live in a universe that follows rules. Which means that everything which happens, happens for a reason. Without rules there could be no reason, so the rules must have existed first.

Why? Could not the rules have come into existence with the universe? Even if there were rules before the universe, why did they need to be the same rules?

And again, this entire line of reasoning may be somewhat complicated by the fact that we're talking about the creation of both space and time. Can something be said to have existed 'before' time? Time is a requirement of 'before.' It is a concept based on time. If time did not exist, before was not a valid concept.

Because there would have been no rules to govern the creation of space and time.

Who told you that?

Alexander Vilenkin

Where is his proof that you found so convincing?

That the creation of space and time followed the laws of quantum mechanics and the law of conservation. That those laws existed before space and time.

 

[Vastator]

Why? Could not the rules have come into existence with the universe? Even if there were rules before the universe, why did they need to be the same rules?

And again, this entire line of reasoning may be somewhat complicated by the fact that we're talking about the creation of both space and time. Can something be said to have existed 'before' time? Time is a requirement of 'before.' It is a concept based on time. If time did not exist, before was not a valid concept.

Because there would have been no rules to govern the creation of space and time.

Who told you that?

Alexander Vilenkin

Where is his proof that you found so convincing?

That the creation of space and time followed the laws of quantum mechanics and the law of conservation. That those laws existed before space and time.

That doesn’t disprove that both might have the same point of origin.

 

[ding]

Because there would have been no rules to govern the creation of space and time.

Who told you that?

Alexander Vilenkin

Where is his proof that you found so convincing?

That the creation of space and time followed the laws of quantum mechanics and the law of conservation. That those laws existed before space and time.

That doesn’t disprove that both might have the same point of origin.

Sure it does. It would be illogical that a quantum tunneling event following the laws of conservation could do so without the quantum laws and law of conservation being already in place to govern the creation of time and space.

 

[Vastator]

Who told you that?

Alexander Vilenkin

Where is his proof that you found so convincing?

That the creation of space and time followed the laws of quantum mechanics and the law of conservation. That those laws existed before space and time.

That doesn’t disprove that both might have the same point of origin.

Sure it does. It would be illogical that a quantum tunneling event following the laws of conservation could do so without the quantum laws and law of conservation being already in place to govern the creation of time and space.

Who says? What is the limit of your understanding when shackled to contemporary knowledge, fervent belief in said knowledge, and human level intelligence? Logic can be quite a moot point when postulating such grand speculation.

 

[ding]

Alexander Vilenkin

Where is his proof that you found so convincing?

That the creation of space and time followed the laws of quantum mechanics and the law of conservation. That those laws existed before space and time.

That doesn’t disprove that both might have the same point of origin.

Sure it does. It would be illogical that a quantum tunneling event following the laws of conservation could do so without the quantum laws and law of conservation being already in place to govern the creation of time and space.

Who says? What is the limit of your understanding when shackled to contemporary knowledge, fervent belief in said knowledge, and human level intelligence? Logic can be quite a moot point when postulating such grand speculation.

I already told you that. Alexander Vilenkin.

Do you have any evidence or logic to the contrary? Is it your belief that space and time created itself willy nilly following no rules at all. We live in a logical universe where there has never been an uncaused event. For every effect there was a cause which followed rules. Are you suggesting the creation of space and time followed no rules? Because the only alternative to that is that the rules were in place. In fact, I don't know any cosmologist who doesn't believe the creation of space and time followed no rules.

Do you know who Leon Lederman is? Because he said, "In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential."

 

[frigidweirdo]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Are you trying to explain something you don't understand?

 

[ding]

Does the creation of space and time qualify as a miracle?

Approximately 14 billion years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe popped into existence out of nothing and occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of a single atom and then began to expand and cool.

Are you trying to explain something you don't understand?

I don't think so. I believe I have explained it very well. Did you read the ensuing discussion?