With respect to what created the universe, the question what came before that doesn't have a satisfactory answer as it leads to an infinite regression of what came before that.

So the only solution to the first cause conundrum of what came before that is "no thing" because only a "no thing" can be eternal and unchanging. The reason only a "no thing" can be the solution is because "things" change. Matter and energy equilibrate. There's no stopping it. So matter and energy itself can not be an eternal source of creating matter and energy. It just isn't possible once you wrap your mind around what eternity or infinity actually means. Not to mention that the mere presence of energy and matter literally creates space and time. It's own space own time. Separate from all other space times. There's no getting around this either.

So it is not possible for some "thing" to be an eternal source of creating universes.
Matter and energy, ie, Fermions and Bosons, cannot be the CAUSE of time and space (the Firmament) since they only EXIST in time and space. Whatever caused the creation of the universe must therefore lie outside all that, and so, by implication, the real universe must be far more and many other things than the universe we can see.
But at the same time the Creator is omnipotent omnipresent and infnite in size/scale. His infinite qualities are different qualitatiely, but is not completely alien to it.
The Creator is both Transcendent and omnipresent in Creation.
 
Quite right, you must have some background in cosmology. Obviously, there must have been events/regions before and which led up to the point where the universe cooled and became transparent to light / electromagnetic radiation. No one can say how far back this other region goes or what is there.

I'm an uneducated construction laborer ... these are the things we discuss down in the ditch we're digging ... what else can folks do with a college degree in Astronomy? ... flip burgers, catch dogs, electrical engineering? ... career options are quite limited for your basic astrophysicist ... 21 cm means nothing to the homeless, or prospective employers ...

As to LIGO, perhaps, the only caveat that makes me uneasy is that gravity is not a force carrier as often erroneously considered (the graviton), and there is a fundamental but huge gap in our understanding here as this is exactly where the worlds of the macro Einsteinium universe and the micro quantum universes run smack into a brick wall refusing to unify, so it leaves me a bit restless to end up having to rely upon gravity as my ultimate searchlight of truth when I don't even really understand what it is I'm searching with.

We're reading something ... maybe not "gravity waves" as advertised ... but smashing two neutron stars together is bound to cause disturbances in The Force or cause the resurgence of Tammy Faye's mascara ... if nothing else, LIGO at scale allows us to piggy-back an interferometer and start getting the spectrum of all these exoplanets we're finding, see if any show N2/O2 signatures ... we're running out of primative societies to exploit here on Earth, we need to start focusing on exploiting alien societies now ... green lives don't matter ...

I'll reserve comment on your last part as they are neither provable or disprovable at this point; perhaps, like Newtonian dynamics, they do a very good job describing the universe, UP TO A POINT.

<crackpotism>
How else would you explain the changes in electron orbital distances? ... even taking into account red shift (Z>5), we're still seeing the wrong interval in iron atoms ... either the speed of light is changing or Planck's constant is changing, or both ... I know what you're going to say, 50 picometer resolution at 10 billion light years is a trivial detail, and you know it .. you're just being a contrarian ...

Is æther by any other name NOT alchemy? ... that's some serious eyepiece time for the mind to wander that far ...
</crackpotism>
 
... what else can folks do with a college degree in Astronomy? ... flip burgers, catch dogs, electrical engineering? ... career options are quite limited for your basic astrophysicist ...
Electrical engineering is a good career! And if you want to be an astrophysicist, you simply get a fellowship at a university, do some teaching, some research, and spend a lot of time petitioning for grants. :SMILEW~130:
 
Electrical engineering is a good career! And if you want to be an astrophysicist, you simply get a fellowship at a university, do some teaching, some research, and spend a lot of time petitioning for grants. :SMILEW~130:

Nah ... not enough beating on things with a framing hammer ... where's the "3 seconds from death" in teaching? ... and what's the point of fist-fighting if you just get in trouble after? ... try swearing like a sailor at university ... try telling the wimin-folk to buzz off and bake cookies at a research center ...

"Research center" ... ha ha ha ... almost whooshed me there ... 9,500 feet in elevation, 2am December 18th, massive high pressure ... the trick is to put your hands in the dry ice to warm them up ... [wink] ... can't frame in the snow, no roofing in an ice storm ... call me a girl, but I hate cold ...
 
With respect to what created the universe, the question what came before that doesn't have a satisfactory answer as it leads to an infinite regression of what came before that.
In your opinion, obviously. By "the universe" do you just mean our observable universe or including everything possibly beyond as well? Being open to the latter renders your infinite regression argument moot.
So the only solution to the first cause conundrum of what came before that is "no thing" because only a "no thing" can be eternal and unchanging. The reason only a "no thing" can be the solution is because "things" change. Matter and energy equilibrate. There's no stopping it. So matter and energy itself can not be an eternal source of creating matter and energy. It just isn't possible once you wrap your mind around what eternity or infinity actually means. Not to mention that the mere presence of energy and matter literally creates space and time. It's own space own time. Separate from all other space times. There's no getting around this either.

So it is not possible for some "thing" to be an eternal source of creating universes.
Ze Aether ..(gotta work on that font).. is obviously a thing. You unwillingness to wrap your head around it doesn't make it any less real. Ze Aether necessarily comes first. I picture a field of some default density (probably related somehow to Planck's constant), zero net mass or energy, but infinite potential for expansion and contraction. Simply math, in other words. Platonic Solids Platonic Solids - Why Five?
 
The universe equals the matter left over after the mutual matter anti-matter annihilation as measured by the cosmic background radiation of the singular event which created the universe from nothing.
 
The universe equals the matter left over after the mutual matter anti-matter annihilation as measured by the cosmic background radiation of the singular event which created the universe from nothing.
There's both decidedly and observably a tad more to "the universe" than "matter."
 
The universe equals the matter left over after the mutual matter anti-matter annihilation as measured by the cosmic background radiation of the singular event which created the universe from nothing.
There's both decidedly and observably a tad more to "the universe" than "matter."
George Wald responds...

"...How is it that we have a universe of matter at all?

Our universe is made of four kinds of so-called elementary particles: neutrons, protons, electrons, and photons, which are particles of radiation. (I disregard neutrinos, since they do not interact with other matter; also the host of other particles that appear transiently in the course of high‑energy nuclear interactions.) The only important qualification one need make to such a simple statement is that the first three particles exist also as antiparticles, the particles constituting matter, the anti-particles anti-matter. When matter comes into contact with anti-matter they mutually annihilate each other, and their masses are instantly turned into radiation according to Einstein’s famous equation, E = mc2, in which E is the energy of the radiation, m is the annihilated mass, and c is the speed of light.

The positive and negative electric charges that divide particles from anti-particles are perfectly symmetrical. So the most reasonable expectation is that exactly equal numbers of both particles and anti-particles entered the Big Bang, the cosmic explosion in which our universe is thought to have begun. In that case, however, in the enormous compression of material at the Big Bang, there must have occurred a tremendous storm of mutual annihilation, ending with the conversion of all the particles and anti-particles into radiation. We should have come out of the Big Bang with a universe containing only radiation.

Fortunately for us, it seems that a tiny mistake was made. In 1965, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson at the Bell Telephone Laboratories in New Jersey discovered a new microwave radiation that fills the universe, coming equally from all directions, wherever one may be. It is by far the dominant radiation in the universe; billions of years of starlight have added to it only negligibly. It is commonly agreed that this is the residue remaining from that gigantic firestorm of mutual annihilation in the Big Bang.

It turns out that there are about one billion photons of that radiation for every proton in the universe. Hence it is thought that what went into the Big Bang were not exactly equal numbers of particles and anti-particles, but that for every billion anti-particles there were one billion and one particles, so that when all the mutual annihilation had happened, there remained over that one particle per billion, and that now constitutes all the matter in the universe -- all the galaxies, the stars and planets, and of course all life..."

 
Ze Aether ..(gotta work on that font)..

USMB doesn't seem to parse HTML escape characters ... or maybe I'm doing something wrong ... well, if you're running Windoze, you deserve every bit of the punishments you've been receiving ... Microsoft has a live video feed of you if you haven't put a piece of tape over the camera on your computer ...

"Option-quote" on a Mac ... æ ... or "shift-option-quote" ... Æ ... easy peasy ... almost like Apple cares about their end-users ... almost ...

This is called the ash ... after the tree ... and is a corruption of a Celtic letter ... it's not English, never was ... it was used when translating Latin in to English to represent a vowel sound in Latin that didn't occur in English at that time ... very close the /a/ in cat as pronounced in the Southern Drawl ... mouth a little wider, tongue a little further back ... it's use was lost during the Great Vowel Shift ... yeah, it's the English that ruin the language ...

It was used by Encyclopædia Britannica but this was strictly an advertising gimmick ... somehow misspelting a word made them seem smarter ... typical English perversion ... I like using it because there is a real world thing that we call ether, (C2H5)2O, and context doesn't always allow proper discrimination ... so I use the ash to distinguish between a respectful answer from when I'm calling another poster an idiot ... "By dark matter you mean æther, right?" ... ha ha ha ... who says mythology isn't alive and well here in the 21st Century ...

Your gravity equations are wrong because there's no such thing as gravity ... get over yourselves ... sheesh ...
 
I like using it because there is a real world thing that we call ether, (C2H5)2O, and context doesn't always allow proper discrimination ... so I use the ash to distinguish between a respectful answer from when I'm calling another poster an idiot ... "By dark matter you mean æther, right?" ... ha ha ha ... who says mythology isn't alive and well here in the 21st Century ...

Your gravity equations are wrong because there's no such thing as gravity ... get over yourselves ... sheesh ...
Same here. Many others I know of as well.
 
George Wald responds...
So much for all that whining about wanting to "converse"!
"Copypasta" < thanks to whoever used that description recently.. ?
The converse was this...

The universe equals the matter left over after the mutual matter anti-matter annihilation as measured by the cosmic background radiation of the singular event which created the universe from nothing.
Which you scoffed at. So I enlisted the help of a Nobel Laureate to rebut your scoffing.

George Wald responds...

"...How is it that we have a universe of matter at all?

Our universe is made of four kinds of so-called elementary particles: neutrons, protons, electrons, and photons, which are particles of radiation. (I disregard neutrinos, since they do not interact with other matter; also the host of other particles that appear transiently in the course of high‑energy nuclear interactions.) The only important qualification one need make to such a simple statement is that the first three particles exist also as antiparticles, the particles constituting matter, the anti-particles anti-matter. When matter comes into contact with anti-matter they mutually annihilate each other, and their masses are instantly turned into radiation according to Einstein’s famous equation, E = mc2, in which E is the energy of the radiation, m is the annihilated mass, and c is the speed of light.

The positive and negative electric charges that divide particles from anti-particles are perfectly symmetrical. So the most reasonable expectation is that exactly equal numbers of both particles and anti-particles entered the Big Bang, the cosmic explosion in which our universe is thought to have begun. In that case, however, in the enormous compression of material at the Big Bang, there must have occurred a tremendous storm of mutual annihilation, ending with the conversion of all the particles and anti-particles into radiation. We should have come out of the Big Bang with a universe containing only radiation.

Fortunately for us, it seems that a tiny mistake was made. In 1965, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson at the Bell Telephone Laboratories in New Jersey discovered a new microwave radiation that fills the universe, coming equally from all directions, wherever one may be. It is by far the dominant radiation in the universe; billions of years of starlight have added to it only negligibly. It is commonly agreed that this is the residue remaining from that gigantic firestorm of mutual annihilation in the Big Bang.

It turns out that there are about one billion photons of that radiation for every proton in the universe. Hence it is thought that what went into the Big Bang were not exactly equal numbers of particles and anti-particles, but that for every billion anti-particles there were one billion and one particles, so that when all the mutual annihilation had happened, there remained over that one particle per billion, and that now constitutes all the matter in the universe -- all the galaxies, the stars and planets, and of course all life..."

George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe
 
Which you scoffed at. So I enlisted the help of a Nobel Laureate to rebut your scoffing.
Simple Appeal to Authority being a logical fallacy commonly utilized by the clueless.
That it might not be energy doesn't matter.
Not really to the point. "Space" itself is not "nothing."
I'm sure you do see it that way. It's not an appeal to authority it is accepting knowledge on authority. Feel free to scoff at that too.

There is no space and time without matter and energy. Maybe what you meant to say was a false vacuum. Ironically enough, what you failed to grasp is that space and time being created from nothing from a false vacuum does not begin with what you refer to as "not nothing" in the vacuum. It starts with a quantum tunneling event that is nothing because the matter and anti-matter particles are supposed to be symmetrical and cancel themselves out. Ordinarily these pairs will pop into and out of existence. Except in the case of our universe where there were not equal amounts.
 
I'm sure you do see it that way. It's not an appeal to authority it is accepting knowledge on authority. Feel free to scoff at that too.
Yes, I do. Because it's not only textbook appeal to authority fallacy in your case, it's copypasta! That you imagine anyone's going to read that shit after you've pasted the same exact thing at least 25 times in the past month takes a stellar idiot. Make your case in your own words, then perhaps reference "authority" for backup. No one here is conversing with Wald, Einstein. That dog won't hunt.
 

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